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PackardV8
11-02-2017, 05:30 PM
When were alternators first used in general production? Were any truck/taxi/police cars using alternators prior to general passenger introduction?

jack vines

mbstude
11-02-2017, 06:31 PM
'63 was the first year across-the-board on production cars.

PackardV8
11-02-2017, 07:09 PM
'63 was the first year across-the-board on production cars.

Hi, Matthew,

1963 is what I remembered, but someone was asking about 1961 and I knew that was too early for regular production, but it's doubtful even special orders would have had it in '61. Although, alternators were first introduced as standard equipment on a production car by the Chrysler Corporation on the Valiant in 1960

jack vines

8E45E
11-02-2017, 07:13 PM
Yes, Leece-Neville alternators were offered on Marshals, Taxicabs and 'Severe Service' sedans in 1961.

It was Option code #130 for single belt drive and #131 for dual belt drive.

Craig

PackardV8
11-02-2017, 08:00 PM
Yes, Leece-Neville alternators were offered on Marshals, Taxicabs and 'Severe Service' sedans in 1961.

It was Option code #130 for single belt drive and #131 for dual belt drive.

Craig

Hi, Craig,

I suspected as much and many thanks for the confirmation and specification. There's not much Studebaker-related that's not know by this group.

jack vines

8E45E
11-02-2017, 10:04 PM
The Milwaukee PD's fleet of '60 Larks were equipped with alternators as well. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?22720-60-Marshal-Updates

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4515/26351407489_3c0c2d4c58_b.jpg

Craig

Skinnys Garage
11-02-2017, 10:57 PM
Yes, both the '61s I had and my '60 from Craig's post have them. The one on the '60 looks like an oversized generator!

r1lark
11-03-2017, 06:22 AM
The yellow colored pages near the back of the '59 thru '64 parts manual have the heavy duty/fleet equipment shown, including alternators. Actually it is interesting reading. :)

PackardV8
11-03-2017, 10:46 AM
The yellow colored pages near the back of the '59 thru '64 parts manual have the heavy duty/fleet equipment shown, including alternators. Actually it is interesting reading. :)

Thanks for refreshing my memory on those pages. The list is far more extensive than one would have thought, given the miniscule volume.

Interestingly, Leece-Neville seems to still be in production and many versions are still found available.

jack vines

56GH
11-03-2017, 11:02 AM
Jack:

Another input -

Fred K. Fox, in his article, "The 1962 Gran Turismo Hawk, New Beauty for an Aging Classic," published in the SDC Turning Wheels monthly, stated that, "Nineteen sixty-two was the last year Studebaker used a generator on its cars."

BRUCESTUDE
11-05-2017, 09:53 PM
The Milwaukee PD's fleet of '60 Larks were equipped with alternators as well. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?22720-60-Marshal-Updates

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4515/26351407489_3c0c2d4c58_b.jpg

CraigWow! Well equipped cars!

BobPalma
11-06-2017, 08:10 AM
'63 was the first year across-the-board on production cars.

;) Almost, Matthew:

https://www.ebay.com/i/282621022256?chn=ps&dispItem=1

Some Ford products used generators into the 1964 model year, much less 1963. The early Mustang crowd likes to ID early Mustangs by noting those that were built with generator charging systems.

For the 1965 model year and beyond, however, all Ford products had alternators. They were behind the game on that, for sure. :cool: BP

Buzzard
11-06-2017, 10:09 AM
I can concur Jack as my '63 GT still has it's original alternator (Prestolite I think) and if I recall it puts out a whopping 35 amps!
Bill

PackardV8
11-06-2017, 10:19 AM
For the 1965 model year and beyond, however, all Ford products had alternators. BP
A bit OT, but it's worth noting, Ford was still selling generator-equipped 260"s to Rootes Group for the 1965 Sunbeam Tigers.

jack vines

Guido
11-06-2017, 11:43 AM
I had a 1949 2R17A fire truck that had what I presumed was a factory alternator (George O now owns the truck). It was also equipped with 2 speed electric wipers. I gave George all the documentation when I sold him the truck.

jrlemke
11-06-2017, 02:16 PM
Had a '42 Segrave fire truck that had an alternator and a generator both (dual electrical systems!) also two starters a distributor and a magneto, a V12 flathead motor (seemed to be about as big as a VW bug) and four 6 volt batteries. How's that for fail-safe?- Jim

Hallabutt
11-06-2017, 03:08 PM
Had a '42 Segrave fire truck that had an alternator and a generator both (dual electrical systems!) also two starters a distributor and a magneto, a V12 flathead motor (seemed to be about as big as a VW bug) and four 6 volt batteries. How's that for fail-safe?- Jim

That engine was a copy of the Pierce Arrow V12, the design for which was credited to a Studebaker engineer Karl Wise. In addition he was also on Barney Roos' engine design team, and given credit for the designed the whole line of Studebaker's Classic era straight eights, which included the Pierce Arrow straight eight. A bit off subject, but a little history never hurts.

mbstude
11-06-2017, 04:58 PM
;) Almost, Matthew:

https://www.ebay.com/i/282621022256?chn=ps&dispItem=1

Some Ford products used generators into the 1964 model year, much less 1963. The early Mustang crowd likes to ID early Mustangs by noting those that were built with generator charging systems.

For the 1965 model year and beyond, however, all Ford products had alternators. They were behind the game on that, for sure. :cool: BP

I thought Jack asked about Studebakers.

jclary
11-06-2017, 06:18 PM
I thought Jack asked about Studebakers.

I stayed away from this topic because I thought it was going to be some kind of "trick" question. I wondered if there was some kind of early 20th century foray into alternators before they came into prominence in the 1960's. My 1963 Falcon Sprint came with a generator. For those of us old enough to remember, early air-conditioned cars were bad to stall out in slow moving traffic because generators did not charge batteries at low speeds and cars sitting in traffic, running the air conditioner, 8 track tape player, and headlights would kill the battery and simply quit running.

An alternator capable of keeping up with the increased demand, at low speeds, became a necessity.

8E45E
11-06-2017, 06:32 PM
For those of us old enough to remember, early air-conditioned cars were bad to stall out in slow moving traffic because generators did not charge batteries at low speeds and cars sitting in traffic, running the air conditioner, 8 track tape player, and headlights would kill the battery and simply quit running.

Ummm...8-TRACK PLAYER???

8-tracks didn't come out until the mid-sixties after alternators were made standard. And by then, all radios were transistorized. Although, in the 1950's a top-of-the-line 8-tube radio would have consumed more power than an 8-track player.

Craig

jclary
11-06-2017, 06:38 PM
Ummm...8-TRACK PLAYER???

8-tracks didn't come out until the mid-sixties after alternators were made standard. And by then, all radios were transistorized. Although, in the 1950's a top-of-the-line 8-tube radio would have consumed more power than an 8-track player.

Craig
Yeah, you're right on that one...but, I recall before that that there were actually some 45rpm record players offered for cars. The point is the same, generators couldn't keep up with the electrical demand on a hot summer night, on Myrtle Beach's Ocean Boulevard cruise drag during the summer.

BobPalma
11-06-2017, 07:32 PM
Yeah, you're right on that one...but, I recall before that that there were actually some 45rpm record players offered for cars. The point is the same, generators couldn't keep up with the electrical demand on a hot summer night, on Myrtle Beach's Ocean Boulevard cruise drag during the summer.

:!: That would be Highway-Hi-Fi, John. ;) :cool: BP

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3v6mqqKvXAhVnw4MKHc0eAlcQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHighway_Hi-Fi&usg=AOvVaw0DKgZAncEqhd4QpSi6iW66

studegary
11-06-2017, 10:01 PM
;) Some Ford products used generators into the 1964 model year, much less 1963. The early Mustang crowd likes to ID early Mustangs by noting those that were built with generator charging systems.

For the 1965 model year and beyond, however, all Ford products had alternators. They were behind the game on that, for sure. :cool: BP

I think that you contradict yourself with these statements since all early Mustangs were 1965 model year vehicles (I know that some people now refer to the early Mustangs as 1964.5 models to distinguish them, but they were sold as 1965 models from the outset.).

Jeff_H
11-07-2017, 10:11 AM
Alternators are typically a 3 phase machine. They produce AC voltages. To use them on a DC system, rectifiers are needed. Semiconductor diodes have a pretty long history, even predating vacuum tubes. But, most of those were low power uses and not all that reliable.

By the 1950s there were Germanium (material) power diodes but those are not well suited for high temperatures (as encountered in a engine mounted alternator). From what I have been able to research, power Silicon diodes were not available until the late '50s. Those are capable of the high temperatures.

The history page here:

http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_about/about_us_timeline.php

Claims alternator design began in '59 and the Leece-Neville alternator was introduced in '61.

Also, the Motorola Corp. 1961 annual report states:


In September, Motorola introduced an
all-electronic alternator system to replace
the DC generator and voltage regulator in
the automobile. The system, using tran-
sistors and diodes exclusively, is designed
for maintenance-free operation and ex-
tended life. It enables the battery to charge
while the motor is idling even with the high
electrical current demand of many acces-
sories in operation.
The alternator extends battery life from
25% to 50%, and has particular application
in service vehicles which can become costly
overhead when inoperable. The system is
specially suited to such vehicles as taxi
cabs, delivery trucks, farm equipment, and
patrol cars which operate for long periods
at low speeds and are continually stopping
and starting.

Quite likely Motorola was working on these a couple years prior to release.

If there were alternators installed on vehicles prior to the late 50's I am not sure what they would have used for rectifiers. Wikipedia claims alternators were installed in some ww2 military vehicles. Makes me wonder if there were mechanical synchronous points rectifiers. If so, lots of extra parts (=cost).

This article has some other info on early alternator use:

https://www.allpar.com/eek/alternators.html

DougHolverson
11-07-2017, 12:33 PM
I take it that Studebaker alternators weren't necessarily standard in their trucks in '63. My '63 Champ had a generator. But I have a suspicion that Studebaker was burning off a lot of leftover parts in the Champs and trucks.

jclary
11-07-2017, 01:23 PM
I take it that Studebaker alternators weren't necessarily standard in their trucks in '63. My '63 Champ had a generator. But I have a suspicion that Studebaker was burning off a lot of leftover parts in the Champs and trucks.

I had two brief conversations/encounters with the late Lowey/Studebaker engineer Bob Bourke. He gave me the impression that Studebaker often used the Truck Department as a dumping ground for "leftover" materials that the automobile division had upgraded or moved away from. Not that they were bad parts, but if it could save a buck, and be used, it went to the trucks. My conversations were limited to the subject of C-Cab trucks. I don't even know if Bourke was still associated with them for the Champ series. But, given the impression of how the truck division was treated, I doubt the attitude had changed.

StudeNewby
11-08-2017, 04:11 PM
I had two brief conversations/encounters with the late Lowey/Studebaker engineer Bob Bourke. He gave me the impression that Studebaker often used the Truck Department as a dumping ground for "leftover" materials that the automobile division had upgraded or moved away from. Not that they were bad parts, but if it could save a buck, and be used, it went to the trucks. My conversations were limited to the subject of C-Cab trucks. I don't even know if Bourke was still associated with them for the Champ series. But, given the impression of how the truck division was treated, I doubt the attitude had changed.

Ditto to both Doug and John. My 64 Champ, also an 8E like Doug's 63, has a generator too, and it was near the end of the line.

8E45E
11-08-2017, 05:05 PM
Ditto to both Doug and John. My 64 Champ, also an 8E like Doug's 63, has a generator too, and it was near the end of the line.

The 35 amp alternator as used on the Larks was an $3.80 option: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?102672-Last-E12-Champ-(V8-3-4-ton)-still-out-there-and-for-sale

Craig

8E45E
11-26-2017, 09:23 PM
If there were alternators installed on vehicles prior to the late 50's I am not sure what they would have used for rectifiers. Wikipedia claims alternators were installed in some ww2 military vehicles. Makes me wonder if there were mechanical synchronous points rectifiers. If so, lots of extra parts (=cost).

Link to 1947 Leece-Neville ad: https://myntransportblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/2a6aa-bussenbeckstarperformer1946ad.jpg

Craig

Jeff_H
11-27-2017, 01:23 PM
Thanks Craig,

That Ad answers the rectifier question...

I guess I was having a blind spot and didn't think about remote mounted selenium rectifiers. Wow, 100A rated selenium stack. 6x6x7" and weighs 7lbs. Takes up nearly as much room as the actual alternator and would have to be mounted somewhere other than the engine compartment. On the bus shown in that advertisement, probably a lot of places it could be located out of the weather. There would be 3 fairly thick cables (probably #6 or so) going from that alternator to the rectifier.

Those selenium rectifiers are a much larger voltage drop compared to semiconductor diodes, so would produce a lot of heat under load. I see even the regulator for that alternator is pretty large. Probably electro-mechanical.

I didn't think of selenium rectifiers since the only ones I was familiar with are much smaller & lower current as found in old radios and test gear from the 40s-50s. They seem to have come into use after ww2 and gone by the end of the 50s. I've been told when they burn out they let out a tremendous bad smell.

TWChamp
11-27-2017, 08:56 PM
A couple months ago I bought a 6 and 12 volt power supply, which I was hoping to use for testing automotive parts. Both selenium rectifiers were shot, though they show no signs of overheating. I couldn't find any selenium rectifiers large enough to handle the current, so I finally had to buy a full wave bridge rectifier from China for $1.00, and it works great now.

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