Ignition: Points fried to nothing.

[DougHolverson]

The points on my Champ fried to nothing this morning. This is after only a few hundred miles and in less than a year. Is there a deeper problem that is causing this? It's a 259 V8 with a '61 Delco distributer and an aftermarket internal ballast coil.

Also could this have symptoms similar to some low vacuum weakness?

[greyben]

A bad condenser can cause points to burn.

[jclary]

Also, leaving the ignition switch on without cranking the engine over will fry the points if they are closed for any length of time. The points only charge the coil. Coil voltage is not discharged through the points.

[bezhawk]

The condenser and coil are a matched set. If you change the inductance of the coil, the capacatance also needs to change. Xl= 2pi fl

[Bud]

There are only a couple of reasons why points will burn up. One is over voltage which causes excessive current draw through the points and the other is a failed condenser. Studebaker engineers decided to use a coil that needs an external resistor for a reason and using something other than what is specified for the application is asking for problems. There is also the possibility that the coil draws excessive current due to being the wrong part for the application. My recommendation is to replace the points and condenser and install the correct coil and ballast resistor which should clear up your problems. Bud

[just lookin]

I would check and see what the voltage is on the positive side of the coil.

[DougHolverson]

I'm learning new stuff all the time. I had the false impression that coils and ignition stuff were all interchangeable commodities by seeing them blister wrapped in S&S, Country General, Bomgaars, and TSC type stores for 40 years. So I should be okay with a non-ballist Delco coil and ballast resistor?

[TWChamp]

When you have the correct coil or coil/ballast combination, with the points closed, the coil should draw about 4 amps.
When the engine is running this amp draw will drop down to 1 to 2 amps.

[paul shuffleburg]

I agree with both the voltage and the condenser, but also did you
have grease/oil on the points.

[jclary]

Well...I'm just a simple backwoods hillbilly, who has survived all these years not knowing electrical equations, and specific resistance values down to their exact ohm number. All these years, back in the mid 1960's, when my dad would send me to town for a set of points & condenser for his '40 Chevy, never once did the backwoods clerk behind the parts counter ask me what coil was under the hood so he could match it.

Somehow, for decades, I have been able to exchange a Plymouth six volt generator, with a Studebaker six volt generator with no noticeable detriment. All these years, dozens of points, condensers, spark plugs, plug wire sets, rotor buttons, distributor caps, have been replaced with different branding on the boxes and no "matching" (other than make, year, model) mentioned. Mainly, I've always thought the catalog numbers grouped the parts for "orientation" so that they could be physically installed properly, and not so much if one's "voltage" had different shaped electrons?

Our vintage cars, (unless modified) have somewhat primitive "electro-mechanical" systems. Back in the '60's, while in the Air Force, I worked on some of the most sophisticated electro-mechanical equipment of the era. Most of our circuitry, was modular, with wired circuits (not printed). What passed for "solid state" back then was transistors, but for the most part, even the sophisticated stuff was rather crude compared to today "chip" circuitry. These modular components, like setting points in an old conventional distributor, had a "range" for setting. You could set a component to read within a range in the evening, and the next morning, different temperature and humidity, and the meter would read something entirely different.

Unlike modern computerized "real time" adjustment sensors, with an ECM controlled fuel injected and coordinated system, every adjustment on our vintage vehicles is a compromise setting. So, I'm thinking we are "Over thinking" the points frying in Doug's engine. It could be something as accidental as the points stopping at a point where they were open at "arcing" distance on the distributor cam in a way that as soon as the ignition switch was turned on, the points arched and fried almost instantly. A bit of trash, or a tiny bit of corrosion/contamination. I am in awe of those of you who keep these exact settings, figures, and equations in your head. And, I have had condensers to fail, along with points, wires, and spark plugs. In all these years, only three or four coils. I have coils that are built with "internal" resistor, and "external." I've never been asked, when ordering a set of points, or condenser, how my coil is constructed. All these years, I've mainly been concerned with getting the voltage, polarity, and wiring correctly in place. Simple as that.

As long as we continue to use our vintage vehicles, with their original ignition systems, we're always subject to points failing, in an instant, without warning. These days, we are also at the mercy of the quality control of the few remaining manufacturers. My conclusion is that Doug can replace the condenser, points, rotor (old fashion "tune-up") and not have a problem for many miles. Included in that tune-up, distributor cap, plugs, and plug wires are optional. Rarely includes replacing the coil. A judgement call.

[bezhawk]

What worked years ago may not be the same as now. Back then all cars used pretty much the same thing. (coil wise) When electronic ignition (transistor, capacitive discharge, etc), came onto the scene things changed. Now most manufacturing is overseas, and you don't know what the local FLAPS is handing you. When buying things like points and condensers, you have about a 75% chance of getting good parts. The rest are bad right out of the box.

[Hawkowner]

I learn some thing every day never heard of an internal ballasted coil. This issue sounds like excessive voltage going to the points . The Theroy behind the by pass wire to the coil from the starter circuit was to give a little extra voltage to the coil when cranking while starter is pulling the voltage low and control the voltage after the engine starts and voltage goes up to about 14 volts. My 57 plus would burn points in less than a mile with straight voltage going to it my buddies 53 Cad would do the same till we figured the ballast resistor was not hooked up. We cleaned the carb many times till we figured it out.

[DougHolverson]

It's running with a Delco coil and resistor swiped from a junk '59 Hawk. I ordered a new coil and resistor from RockAuto for a '61 Lark with Delco ignition to match the '61 Lark Delco distributor in the Champ.

So does dwell increase or decrease with wear?

[rstrasser]

The Dwell increases as the rubbing block wears. Dwell is a measure of the time the points are closed.
Ron

[DEEPNHOCK]

Dwell increases as gap decreases.
If your points wear, the gap increases and the dwell decreases.
If the rubbing block wears, the gap decreases and the dwell increases.

It's running with a Delco coil and resistor swiped from a junk '59 Hawk. I ordered a new coil and resistor from RockAuto for a '61 Lark with Delco ignition to match the '61 Lark Delco distributor in the Champ.

So does dwell increase or decrease with wear?