Coupe, Hardtop, Sedan... I'm Confused

[8E45E]

Chrysler also muddied up the waters in 1979 when they introduced their four door pillared hardtops. The doors had frameless glass but there was a "B" pillar. This was on the Chrysler New Yorker, Chrysler Newport and the Dodge St. Regis. The Plymouth Gran Fury joined the crowd in 1980.

There were cars around well before that with frameless door glass, including the Citroen DS & ID series, GM's 1973-77 'Collonade' hardtops, and 1970's Ford/Mercury/Lincoln full size cars; not to mention, Subaru.

Craig

[WinM1895]

The first production "Hardtop" in the U.S. that I know of was the 49 Buick Riviera. I have come to believe the term applies to any car that has no B pillar and which has no obstructing posts when all the windows are rolled down, door glass and quarter glass. They were called Hardtop because the only previous cars with no B pillar were the convertibles.

There were a very few 1946 Chrysler Town & Country hardtops, but AFAIK, none were ever sold to the general public.

[studegary]

There were a very few 1946 Chrysler Town & Country hardtops, but AFAIK, none were ever sold to the general public.

I believe that there were seven built (someone else can research that) and they did get out to the public, even though original owners were most likely Chrysler executives.

EDIT: IIRC, a Chrysler executive's (perhaps the President's) wife always had a convertible and never put the top down. She liked the doors without an upper frame and the openness of having the side windows all open. I believe this is how the MODERN hardtop (there were earlier cars that met the hardtop definition, including from Studebaker) got started.

[WinM1895]

Don't forget that Ford actually made true hardtop convertibles around 1959, which IIRC were called Starliners.

Stu Chapman

Ford retractable hardtop, body style 51A = 1957 thru 1959.

Starliners were 1960/61 Galaxie hardtops w/a 'semi' fastback roof line. The 1963 1/2 & 1964 fastback roof line is different than 1961/62.

Ford called their regular convertibles: Sunliners, 1955 thru 1962.

[Jerry Forrester]

Ford retractable hardtop, body style 51A = 1957 thru 1959.

Starliners were 1960/61 Galaxie hardtops w/a 'semi' fastback roof line. The 1963 1/2 & 1964 fastback roof line is different than 1961/62.

Ford called their regular convertibles: Sunliners, 1955 thru 1962.

The '57-8-9 retractables were Skyliners.
Skyliners were made from 1954 through 1959.
The '54's were Crestline Skyliners. They were hardtop convertibles with an acrylic plastic roof panel. I had one of these from '67 to '72 or so.
The '55-6 Skyliners were part of the Fairlawn 500 Crown Victoria series. They had the Acrylic plastic roof panels.
The Fairlane 500 '57-9 Skyliner was the retractable hardtop convertible.

[WinM1895]

The '57-8-9 retractables were Skyliners.
Skyliners were made from 1954 through 1959.
The '54's were Crestline Skyliners. They were hardtop convertibles with an acrylic plastic roof panel. I had one of these from '67 to '72 or so.
The '55-6 Skyliners were part of the Fairlane 500 Crown Victoria series. They had the Acrylic plastic roof panels.
The Fairlane 500 '57-9 Skyliner was the retractable hardtop convertible.

I'm well aware of all this, as I was a Ford parts guy for 30 years, owned dozens of 1955/64's.

The 1954 Mercury version was called the Sun Valley.

1955/56 Crown Vic's were available with or without the plexi-glass roof.

btw: StudeRich and I were parts guys at Frost & French.

[Packard53]

Here is another name used for a body style in the 30's All Weather Phaeton.

John S.

[jnormanh]

Here is another name used for a body style in the 30's All Weather Phaeton.

John S.

"Phaeton", originally applied to horse drawn carriages, was applied to four-door convertibles which had a second windscreen in front of the rear seat passengers. Only a handful were ever built, all, or most all, by Deusenberg



"All weather phaeton" was an indefinite term applied to many four door convertibles whether they had a second windshield or not. Packard and Cadillac built quite a few.

[Packard53]

jnormanh: The Duesenberg in the picture is known as a Torpedo Phaeton. Brunn built one car 2511 J496. Weymann/LaGrande built two 2542 J511 and 2554 J526. Walker/LaGrande
built two 2608 J582 J582 and J548. J582 was the only example built with out the external exhaust pipes. J582 was wrecked in 1942 and J496 was destroyed in a accident in 1937. The body style you are showing is also called a Sport Phaeton.

John S.

[jnormanh]

Well, John, it's a bit off topic, but I'll tell you a story about Duesenbergs.

Just after WWII my father decided he wanted a J or SJ. At the time they were not considered very valuable. He learned that two of them had been sold new to customers in Minneapolis, so he went there to look for them..After some time spent chasing, he was told that they both went to a scrapyard during WWII, so he went to the yard and inquired.

The answer he got was "Them old Deusenbergs? Yah, we scrapped them. Couldn't get no spare parts, used too much gasoline, nobody wanted 'em."

Ten years later, mid 1950s, he and his brother were running a retail hardware business. Dad was at the desk in the little office, writing a letter when older brother stuck his head in the door.

"Whatcha doin"? he asked."

"I'm sending a guy a check for this Deusenberg." and he showed uncle a green one.

"How much" asked unc.

"$600"

"Are you freaking nuts? You can't get any spare parts, and tires for that thing cost the earth."

Unc was the older brother, and Dad tore up the letter and check.

But the punch line is: A few years later unc paid $500 for a clapped out Cord 810 which seldom ran since there were no parts available, and no mechanic wanted to work on it.

[WinM1895]

1961: Mae West's 1931 Duesenberg J Murphy Town Car was for sale on a Hollywood used car lot: $500.00!

I couldn't afford it, had just bought a 1929 Packard 633 Club Sedan from a Santa Monica used car lot for $600.00.

The hobby was a lot more fun back then...when cars weren't worth very much.

[jnormanh]

1961: Mae West's 1931 Duesenberg J Murphy Town Car was for sale on a Hollywood used car lot: $500.00!

That's about $5000 today. Is it still for sale?

[WinM1895]

That's about $5000 today. Is it still for sale?

What do you think? I spotted the ad in the sunday LA Times antique & classic car section, so it probably went bye-bye in a NY minute.

And 500 bucks today is probably closer to 50 grand.

1972: I went to look at a 1948 Nash Ambassador convertible (a rare car when it was new). When I walked into the owners back yard, I forgot all about the Nash, as parked next to it...being used as a chicken coupe...was this:

1934 Packard V12 1108 Rollston Laundelet. Owner said he found some papers inside, the original owner was Charlie Chaplin.

The Packard was rough as a cob and stunk to high heaven. It needed everything, so I told a Classic Car hustler I knew about it, he bought it and I got a grand for a finders fee.

[Stu Chapman]

Stu, are You talking about the retractable s ? if so they were 57,58,59.

Yes I was. Just wasn't certain of the model years.

Stu Chapman

[kurtruk]

"Phaeton", originally applied to horse drawn carriages, was applied to four-door convertibles which had a second windscreen in front of the rear seat passengers. Only a handful were ever built, all, or most all, by Deusenberg



"All weather phaeton" was an indefinite term applied to many four door convertibles whether they had a second windshield or not. Packard and Cadillac built quite a few.

I learned this style as Dual Cowl Phaeton. A local guy restored a Chrysler Imperial body by LeBaron (1931?) Dual Cowl Phaeton back in the early 80s that was a literal basket case. The body had been hacked up into 7 pieces and sold to him in 7 bushel baskets. William Harrah came calling when he found out what he had.