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Thread: Joe Granatelli Avanti

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Joe Granatelli Avanti

    Does anyone know where the Joe Granatelli Avanti resides nowadays? It is the 1963 or 64 Avanti, Joe put a Caddy 429 motor in, during the mid-1960s. Would like to hear of an update on it, if anyone knows.
    Thanks

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    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    It was for sale in Chicago a few years ago, about the time of the St.Louis meet. It has been sold, but I haven't heard any more bout it.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
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    Very interesting Avanti!...I wonder if the engine overheating issue was an internal engine problem, or that the radiator simply wasn't big enough to cool 429 (?) CI?

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    7-6-15 and a few names to track down. http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/autos...ac-resurfaces/

    Bob
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    Bob L, Your reflexes are quicker,

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SN-60 View Post
    Very interesting Avanti!...I wonder if the engine overheating issue was an internal engine problem, or that the radiator simply wasn't big enough to cool 429 (?) CI?
    The owner I talked to in the mid 1980s said everything under the sun had been tried to cool it down, by several people who supposedly knew what they were doing, all to no avail. I heard the same story a few years later about a 429 Caddy powered 62GT. That was at the SDC Meet in Nashville around 1990. I spent several days vending beside the owner, who described extensive efforts to cool it down, to no avail. Then a couple of years later I read a few articles by that guy, bragging about all the miles he had put on that Caddy powered GT. Later, I found out the guy was a total BS artist, so have no idea if it was ever cooled down or not.

    So there appears to be challenges to cooling a 429 in a Stude, but I really do not understand why, especially in a Hawk.

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    7-6-15 and a few names to track down. http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/autos...ac-resurfaces/

    Bob
    Yep, that's the car I saw, and the color it was in the mid 1980s, but it was in very nice condition back then. I do not recall those seats, but who knows.

    Thanks Bob, it was nice seeing the car again

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    President Member Xcalibur's Avatar
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    Looking at the picture, a modern radiator would be a decent starting place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xcalibur View Post
    Looking at the picture, a modern radiator would be a decent starting place.
    They cooled 400 SBC's with A/C installed in the 70's so why not a 429 Cad. Agree
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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    They cooled 400 SBC's with A/C installed in the 70's so why not a 429 Cad. Agree
    I do not understand the overheating issue wither, but thought it odd that two different folks, with two different Studes, both had heat problems with the Caddy 429. Does the Caddy 429 have a history of being prone to running hot in Caddies? I once owned a 67 Eldorado, and believe it was a 427 or 429, but do not recall any heat problems. Then too, I wonder if either of the Stude folks had hopped up their 429. That could be a factor.

    I simply dunno. Its just memories anyway, and I am not planning a 429 swap, that's for sure.

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    I think the car is in Ohio getting a full restoration

    Denny L

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    Ray Cash's Oldsmobile engine, which he swapped for the ruined R4 he was running in his '63 Avanti, had about the same (or more CI) as the Caddy, and as far as I know Ray had no problem using an original Studebaker Avanti radiator to cool that bid Olds.

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    Is that the swap pictured on an engine swap book cover? (Olds Big Block for an R4?)
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    I do not understand the overheating issue wither, but thought it odd that two different folks, with two different Studes, both had heat problems with the Caddy 429. I simply dunno. Its just memories anyway, and I am not planning a 429 swap, that's for sure.
    Me either. I'd use the 500!! I don't know of any unusual cooling issues historically with those Cad engines but looking at the pictures again and recalling what Xcaliber said, a better/newer radiator and a fan shroud would be a good start. IIRC, Avantis were not the most cooling friendly design but a clean system with a good water pump, top notch radiator and an efficient fan/shroud assembly should get one going. I've been wrapping my pipes in DEI header wrap and that does a lot to help reduce heat in the engine compartment. I also like to run my engines hot, 190 or so. I don't know what effect it has en-toto but my modified SBC's will run all day at 90 degrees outside with no heat issues at under 200 deg on the gauge in my 39 carbed Ford and 83 Avanti.

    The 83 is fine because of the Holley EFI. We'll see about the 74 Avanti with the 383 stroker when it's on the road. It does have a rear mounted pump with insulated lines to the carb. We see about vapor lock then as I don't think overheating will be an issue based on my previous experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    Does anyone know where the Joe Granatelli Avanti resides nowadays? It is the 1963 or 64 Avanti, Joe put a Caddy 429 motor in, during the mid-1960s. Would like to hear of an update on it, if anyone knows.
    Thanks
    I think this Avanti with the Caddilac engine is owned by Jon Myer.
    Lew Schucart
    Editor, Avanti Magazine

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    Let's not confuse the '64-67 Cadillac 429", which was the last iteration of the original 1949 design, with the later 472"-500"; a completely different design. And no, neither engine family had any inherent cooling problems.

    jack vines
    PackardV8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
    Is that the swap pictured on an engine swap book cover? (Olds Big Block for an R4?)
    Bill
    Yes, that's the one!

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    In the summer of 1978 it was discovered by myself and my friend Rotten Ralph, who was driving our other friend's too-silent, 472-equipped '74 Eldorado coupe, that it would overheat within 20 minutes- IF run on the freeway at 70+ mph...accidentally in SECOND gear!!!

    JSC
    p.s. R.B., the car's owner, was asleep in the back seat...

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    Joe's car was a red 64 with square head light covers. SN-60, Ray Cash worked for Herbert & Meek in 67. It was a Olds 455 industrial engine that was lnstalled in Bob Pattons car. Ray had sold his car a year or so earlier. I built the motor mounts for Joe's car in 66 and he sold it a year or two later. I have a few pics. of Joes car in the shop at Paxton, but they are in B&W, so you can't see the color.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SN-60 View Post
    Very interesting Avanti!...I wonder if the engine overheating issue was an internal engine problem, or that the radiator simply wasn't big enough to cool 429 (?) CI?
    Its funny that cooling issues can be related to so many things. Sometimes a fan is too small for the shroud opening. Or the blades are not positioned properly in the shroud opening. Or the shroud is not sealing well enough to allow all the air to flow through the radiator. Or the thermostat is wrong for the climate or engine temperament. Or the timing is off. Or the air is not flowing through the engine compartment, thus trapping too much heat. Sunbeam Tigers suffered this effect. And on and on and on. But it comes down to good water circulation and air flow.
    So many things can throw it off.
    sals54

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    But it comes down to good water circulation and air flow.
    For true. When it overheats, remove the hood and keep driving. If it cools down, it's lack of air flow. If it doesn't, it's water circulation or timing.

    Or the air is not flowing through the engine compartment, thus trapping too much heat. Sunbeam Tigers suffered this effect.
    But then, I drove a Sunbeam Tiger for twenty years, first as box stock, then with a modified 302" and it never, ever overheated.

    jack vines
    PackardV8

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    Neither did the Caddy in Joe's car. I even commented to him about the fan shroud being modified and cracked with a big hunk out of the top left hand side near the radiator hose.

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    I knew I recently saw something about this car. I am a newsletter judge and it was for sale in several issues of the Hubcap of the heart of Ohio chapter. It was last in the Jan-feb so unsure if it sold. Owner was listed as Steve Kolish 847-848-7013. Asking $12,900
    Milt

    1947 Champion (owned since 1967)
    1961 Hawk 4-speed
    1967 Avanti
    1961 Lark 2 door
    1950 Commander Starlight
    1988 Avanti Convertible

    Member of SDC since 1973

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    Steve was just the helping sell the car for the owner who has serious health issues. The car was sold.

    Denny L

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Neither did the Caddy in Joe's car. I even commented to him about the fan shroud being modified and cracked with a big hunk out of the top left hand side near the radiator hose.
    I kinda got the impression from the owner in the mid 1980s, the car had always ran hot, for as long as anyone could remember. If it ran cool when Joe did the conversion, I wonder what happened to it, as the conversion woulda only been around 20 years old at that time. Kinda early for the block to fill up with sludge, or the radiator become clogged with crap. Pretty sure the radiator was one of the many things that had been done in attempt to cool it down. Maybe someone who has actually driven the car in the past 30 years will chime in here eventually.

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    The past owner drove it from California via Phoenix to Illinois. I know who has the car but prefer not to put it on the forum.

    Denny L

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green53 View Post
    The past owner drove it from California via Phoenix to Illinois. I know who has the car but prefer not to put it on the forum.

    Denny L
    If he made the trip between April and November is sounds like the cooling problem was solved. Maybe the car will turn up at an SDC Meet someday. It has a unique place in Stude history. Particularly Avanti history. OTOH, if he made the trip between December and March, the car might still have the heating problem.
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-15-2017 at 09:38 AM.

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    IMG_2195 (002).JPG Henry Mann is a member of our local Delaware Valley Studebaker Chapter in Pa. He is the owner and is in the process of restoring it. Knowing Henry, he will spare no expense to do this car justice. This picture is from 4 or 5 months ago. He has a very large car collection, including several Studebakers.
    Larry Y
    North Wales, PA

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by larryyano View Post
    IMG_2195 (002).JPG Henry Mann is a member of our local Delaware Valley Studebaker Chapter in Pa. He is the owner and is in the process of restoring it. Knowing Henry, he will spare no expense to do this car justice. This picture is from 4 or 5 months ago. He has a very large car collection, including several Studebakers.
    Wow! Hopefully he will repaint the same red Joe G. had it painted, back in the day. Also, hopefully he will get rid of those goofy looking, later style Ricarro seats. I look forward to seeing it again someday.

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    I'll be looking forward to seeing the Granatelli car restored. A year ago, I and several other members of the Chicagoland Avanti Owners Association helped dig the car along with 10 or 12 other Avantis of various ages out of a storage shed in Northern IL. Our club president had some health issues and it was decided to "thin the herd" of his Avanti and other cars collection. The car needed all 4 tires pumped up to roll out of the shed as did just about every other car taken out. Under the dirt, dust, mouse nesting materials, walnut shells and other assorted debris, one could tell it was a special car. It has some interesting modifications including an alarm system, battery relocated to the trunk, extra gauges, a straight up and down (Not on a slant) mounting of the radiator and that big 429 taking up the entire engine bay. At one time the paint was great looking with pin striping but it was peeling off around the cowl area. It is a significant car and I'm sure it will be great looking again after the restoration. There are some of those barn find Avantis still for sale, contact Steve Kolish who's information was listed above on this thread.
    [SIGPIC]

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plwindish View Post
    I'll be looking forward to seeing the Granatelli car restored. A year ago, I and several other members of the Chicagoland Avanti Owners Association helped dig the car along with 10 or 12 other Avantis of various ages out of a storage shed in Northern IL. Our club president had some health issues and it was decided to "thin the herd" of his Avanti and other cars collection. The car needed all 4 tires pumped up to roll out of the shed as did just about every other car taken out. Under the dirt, dust, mouse nesting materials, walnut shells and other assorted debris, one could tell it was a special car. It has some interesting modifications including an alarm system, battery relocated to the trunk, extra gauges, a straight up and down (Not on a slant) mounting of the radiator and that big 429 taking up the entire engine bay. At one time the paint was great looking with pin striping but it was peeling off around the cowl area. It is a significant car and I'm sure it will be great looking again after the restoration. There are some of those barn find Avantis still for sale, contact Steve Kolish who's information was listed above on this thread.
    Thanks for the info. I too, kinda felt like I was in the presence of something special when I spent a couple hours looking that car over, about 30 years ago. I recall the radiator, and its position as one of several things the owner mentioned as an attempt to cool it down. I got the impression it had ran hot as long as anyone could recall, even then. IN revealing that to me, the owner killed any potential of sale to me, but I thanked him for his honesty. Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by plwindish View Post
    I'll be looking forward to seeing the Granatelli car restored. A year ago, I and several other members of the Chicagoland Avanti Owners Association helped dig the car along with 10 or 12 other Avantis of various ages out of a storage shed in Northern IL. Our club president had some health issues and it was decided to "thin the herd" of his Avanti and other cars collection. The car needed all 4 tires pumped up to roll out of the shed as did just about every other car taken out. Under the dirt, dust, mouse nesting materials, walnut shells and other assorted debris, one could tell it was a special car. It has some interesting modifications including an alarm system, battery relocated to the trunk, extra gauges, a straight up and down (Not on a slant) mounting of the radiator and that big 429 taking up the entire engine bay. At one time the paint was great looking with pin striping but it was peeling off around the cowl area. It is a significant car and I'm sure it will be great looking again after the restoration. There are some of those barn find Avantis still for sale, contact Steve Kolish who's information was listed above on this thread.
    '87-'89 Avantis also had the radiator mounted straight up and down (non-slanted), although with the Chev 305 I doubt that there's a clearance issue?

    And mounting the battery in the trunk has always been a good idea on '63-'85 Avantis, for various reasons.

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    Joe was the one who sold me the R-3 rear end that I put in my first 54 back about 1970. He had a whole rack of rears ends for sale. He told me that instead of changing gears in the field for the Bonneville runs, they just changed rear ends. All of them were shiny and black except one that was rusty. It also was the cheapest. I asked why it was rusty and he said it was the one that they used in the 171 MPH runs. I took that one. The gears were 2:71 as I remember. The brakes were in great shape. So I just changed the gears to 3:54, painted it up and installed it.

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    When I looked at he car before it was sold a few years ago, I was impressed with the engine installation. It looked engineered properly like a factory type installation. I am sure any heat issues could be resolved if the engine is in good tune and running properly. Glad it is being restored. Joe sold me my R3 in 1969.
    james r pepper

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    I wonder why Joe G. chose this particular Avanti to modify, and what was under the hood BEFORE the Caddy install?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpepper View Post
    When I looked at he car before it was sold a few years ago, I was impressed with the engine installation. It looked engineered properly like a factory type installation. I am sure any heat issues could be resolved if the engine is in good tune and running properly. Glad it is being restored. Joe sold me my R3 in 1969.
    Agree it could be cooed down, if needed. For starters, If I were lucky enough to own it, I'd install a 56-61 Hawk grill, shortened to fit the Avanti front nose. That grill would insure plenty of air gets to the radiator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    Agree it could be cooed down, if needed. For starters, If I were lucky enough to own it, I'd install a 56-61 Hawk grill, shortened to fit the Avanti front nose. That grill would insure plenty of air gets to the radiator.
    Joe, are you off of your meds again???

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SN-60 View Post
    Joe, are you off of your meds again???
    It would definitely get more air to the radiator that way, plus add a little bling to the rather plain Jane looking nose. Yes? No?

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    Don't know about others experiences but between the wife and I, we have owned 7 big block Caddy's. (still have engines and trans salvaged out of 3 of 'em, 390, 425, and 500.) Never once had any overheating problems with any of 'em.
    I suspect something is hinkey, either with the installation, or with coolant circulation. I'd be closely examining the water pump's internal clearances as it is not unknown to get new or remanufactured or offshore manufactured replacement 'copies' with out of spec/mismatched components and/or excessive internal clearances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    It would definitely get more air to the radiator that way, plus add a little bling to the rather plain Jane looking nose. Yes? No?
    Yes & No,.......I agree that it would definitely get more air that way.....however, I think I'd rather have an Avanti OVERHEAT than to do something like that to it!

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