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Thread: wheel cylinders

  1. #1
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    wheel cylinders

    Is there anyone resleeveing the rear wheel cylinders on the disc brake cars with stainless. sleeve's

  2. #2
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    White Post Restorations does them.

    http://www.whitepost.com/brake.html

  3. #3
    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Probably as cheap to replace them with new.
    StudeRich
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    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




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    Rock Auto carries them for cheap

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    While they are still available new--why sleeve old ones. Much more cost effective. The stainless only fixes the seal surface anyway, the rest still rusts from moisture, flush them once a year, replace the fluid and the old cast iron lasts just as long. When we run out of new ones-then we'll need to sleeve what's left. Just my opinion.

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    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffry Cassel View Post
    Rock Auto carries them for cheap
    I doubt you would get the CORRECT Rear Wheel Cylinders for Front Disc. Brakes, THERE! Just a lot of hassle, wasted time and return shipping.

    REFERENCE INFO:

    DORMAN W19237 {#535583, 5463000} Info
    Front; Bore: 1 In.; Except Heavy Duty Brakes

    $13.23
    DORMAN W19236 {#535585, 5463015} Info
    Front; Bore: 1.0625 In.; Heavy Duty Brakes

    $17.13
    WAGNER WC19236 {#F19236} Info
    Front; 1-1/16" Bore

    $22.79
    WAGNER WC40963 {#F40963} Info
    Rear; 7/8" Bore

    $22.79
    DORMAN W15306 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Info
    Rear; Bore: 1.375 In.


    EVERY ONE OF THESE ARE WRONG for your Disc Brake application!
    The last one fits NO Studebaker!
    Last edited by StudeRich; 03-08-2017 at 05:15 PM.

  7. #7
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    I know the rear cylinders are 3/4" on the disc brake car but if that 7/8 wagner would fit at the upper brake shoe I could use those. Most are set up to use a pin to push the brake shoe out and the studebaker use the shoe itself. The rest of the brake system will be changed out and adjustable valves added to the system so size could be adjusted out. Will have to check with wagner or have my local parts guy order a couple and if not right he would just return them.

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    Yeah StudeRich, every site from every supplier-including NAPA has it wrong. They used to have it right 5 years ago. Suddenly Avanti's have 10" rear brakes and 7/8" wheel cylinder. Even speed shops that existed in the 60s-like Speedway, now have Studebakers with Ford engine parts listed. The end is near!!!!
    Many sites don't even show Studebaker in the drop down lists anymore.
    Last edited by karterfred88; 03-08-2017 at 02:23 PM.

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    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swvalcon View Post
    I know the rear cylinders are 3/4" on the disc brake car but if that 7/8 wagner would fit at the upper brake shoe I could use those. Most are set up to use a pin to push the brake shoe out and the studebaker use the shoe itself. The rest of the brake system will be changed out and adjustable valves added to the system so size could be adjusted out. Will have to check with wagner or have my local parts guy order a couple and if not right he would just return them.
    These standard 4 wheel Drum Brake Wheel Cylinders also use push "Pins" like many other makes, so the Pistons are wrong for a Eccentric Adjusted Rear Brake Shoe for Front Discs.
    So the difference is WAY more than just bore size, the mounting screws and Brake Line fitting holes are also wrong, so it will not fit the backing plate.
    It is just a "NO WAY" situation.

    When you get Stude. Parts here ordered by Original Studebaker Part Number, they FIT!:
    http://studebakervendors.com
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




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    It was cheaper to sleeve mine than buy new. And I know what country they are from.
    '64 R2 back on da road again

  12. #12
    President Member WCP's Avatar
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    Rather than sleeving, bore the cylinders to 13/16" and buy the 13/16" pistons, cups and boots from Wagner. These work well on an Avanti with Turner front disk conversion.

  13. #13
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    I don't have a issue with studebakervendors only parts but when they charge $90 for what should be a $30-$40 wheel cylinder thats kind of grabbing the golden goose by the short hairs.

  14. #14
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    I went on Dormans site and they show the 63-64 hawks and up to 71 Avanti repair kits being the same as some older jeeps cj's and 83-83 Mazda b2300's. So i went to rockauto and they show for the Mazda B2300 wheel cylinder repair kits as $1.33 and they had a closeout on some wheel cylinders that look like maybe they could be reworked to fit at $3.58 each.I ordered a set plus the repair kits and if they won't work I'am only out $12.00 with shipping.It does show that they are 3/4" and look to be where the brake shoe rides against them. They bolt on different but think I can change that. Will let you know what happens when they get here. Hopefully there is another option out there for the disc brake cars.

  15. #15
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    I got the new repair kits and wheel cylinders today. Kits are made in the USA and the cylinders from Japan. Which I will take over China any day. Looks like the new cylinder will work only thing I will have to make a template and drill a hole across from the upper one that is there and maybe seal where it fit to the backing plate as the center is cut just a little smaller. The shoe's fit into it just fine and size look real close. On the repair kits I will need to reuse the pistons but think you do on all kits. May have to trim a little off the back side of the dust seal as it looks to go in a little deeper but that should be easy. The spring looks a little heavier but that is a good thing.Going to try to rebuild what I have and then decide which way I want to go when the new brake shoes get here next week.
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    I feel your pain on vendor pricing. Fact is, most of the old interchange numbers no longer will "interchange" as so many have been discontinued. If the repair kits don't work try Dorman 8418 about $3.00 average. Every other listing I've found is wrong on bore size. Seems like a Chrysler wheel cylinder from the 50s-60s-70s might be a match they were 3/4". Half of the reman shoes were wrong that I have received, being close, but not a match at the wheel cylinder ends--usually longer (taller?) at the end that goes into the wheel cylinder but would work with a "little" die grinding the correct profile onto them. Never did figure out what they came out of. I know the 3/4" cylinders must have been commonly used ones in 1960-1964, although specified by Bendix to be 3/4", I'm sure Studebaker sourced them as cheaply as possible from a batch being used on something else. Unfortunately-that "something else" probably isn't available anymore either. Let us know how much massaging is needed on the cylinders-looks like too much to me.

  17. #17
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    Fred Looks like all that will be needed on the wheel cylinders is to drill another hole at the other side on the backing plate and either a gasket or something to seal dust out right where it fits though the plate as the center area is just a hair smaller.I think everything else will work. Which would be great as there should be a lot of people making cylinders for b 2300 Mazda's for cheap. I only paid $3.58 for these. They are 3/4" and are the same distance across on the main body itself as the studebakers and the dust seal is a slight bit heavier but that won't get in the way. The old shoes fit the slot on the piston just fine and fit in the dust seal so that shouldn't be a issue. The stock set up the end of the shoe just rides against a flat spot on the piston. As I said I will trust Japan machine work over anything out of China. China stuff will be shot in a year. May have to use a metric line fitting where it hits the cylinder but I'am putting new lines on anyway so I can build what ever it needs.

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    not sure if it makes any difference on yours...but on my '39....I took the Ford pistons and machined the inside depth so that the thickness where the shoe contacts it to the back side of the piston remained the same thickness. I also noticed the Ford piston body was slightly longer but that seemed to have no affect. For the rear I made SS pistons and had the cylinders sleeved.
    Check your distance from the mounting surface to the center of the bore...so the shoe presses in the center of the piston and not off center. And your "boss" is slightly smaller diameter than the hole in the backing plate? can you make a thin bushing to take up the space?.... So the bolts are not relied on to hold it centered. best of luck with it.

  19. #19
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    The bushing idea is good never thought of that but will take a look. My brother has a small machine I could run some off on. I did some measuring and the body of the cylinder is 2 1/2" rubber to rubber. The line hole is dead center and the mount holes are 1 3/4 center to center and are both 7/8" from center. So if I just mark center of the hole in the backing plate and put a hole on each side 7/8 from there the cylinder should be centered.Where the cylinder fits the backing plate the hole is 1 3/8 and the new cylinder is 1 1/8 so I need a 1 1/8 ID 1/8 " thick spacer or sleeve .
    Last edited by swvalcon; 03-17-2017 at 02:45 PM.

  20. #20
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    The new brake shoes got here today from rockauto. New shoes, no core charge at $36.80 with the shipping so may be more or less depending on where you are shipping. Look a perfect match to the old shoes other than the rear shoe has more lining on it. Longer and the piece that fits into the wheel cylinder at the upper shoe is just a little smaller but they fit perfect into the new Mazda wheel cylinders. Need to get new springs and clips and should be able to assemble this next week. Then I will know for sure if all is well. If everything works as planed I saved myself a little over $200.
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    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    Got the E-brake cable and clips with new springs from SI yesterday. I made a plate for the backing plate at the wheel cylinder with 1 1/8" hole to support the wheel cylinder and mounted it on the outside of backing plate at the top. Used the two holes that where there and drilled two new ones. My modified plate is now held on with 4 bolts. Two 5/16 on the bottom and the two small ones at the top that hold the wheel cylinder on. Everything else fit together with out any changes and the drum fits and turns so I see no reason these Mazda cylinders wont work. Now just a matter of doing the other side and torque everything up and she's ready to go in the frame. The mod's would be a little hard to do on the car but if you where to remove the backing plate and do everything off the car and just put it back on as an assembly it would be easy.
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    Care to share what part# rear shoes you are using?

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    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    Shoes are Centric 11101730 $25.79 a set new no cores, wheel cylinders Kelsey-Hayes 3/4" 1984 mazda b2200 rears w-53506 and 507 $ 3.45 each all from Rockauto. Bracket on backing plate 18 gauge sheet metal sealed with black silicone before bolting to backing plate. E-cable and springs from SI.

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    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    Steve, that looks like it should work well. Just be forewarned, that disc brake Studebaker bendix brakes put the long lining on the leading shoe, the reverse of what you would find on regular drum brakes.
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  25. #25
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    For some reason these shoes have the linings longer than the stock ones on both sides. The metal part of the shoe is the same but the linings run closer to the edge of the shoe. They are almost the same on both shoes.not sure if that will be a problem or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Lackie View Post
    White Post Restorations does them.

    http://www.whitepost.com/brake.html
    White Post started with stainless. They only show brass now.

    Claude Chmielewski
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    Quote Originally Posted by swvalcon View Post
    Shoes are Centric 11101730 $25.79 a set new no cores, wheel cylinders Kelsey-Hayes 3/4" 1984 mazda b2200 rears w-53506 and 507 $ 3.45 each all from Rockauto. Bracket on backing plate 18 gauge sheet metal sealed with black silicone before bolting to backing plate. E-cable and springs from SI.
    Thank you for helping fellow stude nuts out!

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    Be aware that these 173 shoes are only used on the rear of Studebaker cars with factory front disc brakes. They are also used on 1/2 ton pickups, front and rear, from late '55 through '62.

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    If I recall correctly, years ago Studebaker Intl. offered rebuilt original stainless steel sleeved front disc brake cylinders for sale. I think for legal reasons that was discontinued. It was at that time that I wanted to replace/rebuild the ones on my car. New reproduced cylinders weren’t available at that time. I contacted White Post Restorations and inquired about stainless steel verses brass sleeves. I don’t remember if they still did both at that time but I do remember brass was recommended. The reason was that brass could take a much higher pressure than stainless steel before the fluid would leak past the seal on the piston. I guess the decision would need to be made as to rebuild original cylinders with brass sleeves or Chinese quality repros. The same argument can be made for rear cylinders.


    As for the rear shoes I use #53 that are available at Advance Auto. They are new with no core charge and recently purchased for around $24.00. The length of the lining on one shoe is 9” and the other is 11”.

    regards,
    Jay

  30. #30
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    Technically #53 shoes are truck and #173 shoes are car rear. Not sure what the difference is, if any nowadays.

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    Set #53 and set #173 are interchangeable.

  32. #32
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    The E-brake cable that I got from SI is not a Studebaker item. It is close but a lot of it is different than the stock part although it looks like it will work. It's like the wheel cylinders that I am using. Something off of a brand X and in a plain box with the part # changed and the old number inked out so you cant read it. I could have done the same thing with the brake shoes and wheel cylinders . Paid rockauto the $30-40 and removed the numbers for my own and marked them up 300% but that's not who I am.

  33. #33
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    Yes the brake cables are reproduced items, but do fit and work as delivered. One note of caution, though, make sure the braided wire in the cable matches the size on the car-or at least is close. My first ones were way smaller, and the ends pulled off on first use, and the end fitting into the handbrake cable housing was too small. They exchanged for new ones, which were the right size and work well. There are only so many NOS items. I didn't need to modify or work around any other issues, so they were not "universal" items, just made to order and size, so they fit. To price them correctly, you need to measure and get a quote from a company making new units, based on that price the replacements are reasonably priced. The wheel cylinders were exactly the same as the ones being replaced, required no drilling, or plates to mount and use. Yes they were "too" expensive for what they were, but were worth the lack of effort. Unfortunately, they were a repackaged product, and thus carried no useful numbers to cross reference, but I would expect that, since they are sourcing and selling them. I have hundreds of hours invested in sourcing some things to save some money, but, getting too old to do that on everything, each day is worth something to me also. Rear brake drums being a costly and time consuming example. I eventually found some costing 20% of the vendors price, and they work-but the hours spent may not be worth the price difference.
    Last edited by karterfred88; 03-27-2017 at 02:45 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4jc8z View Post
    Technically #53 shoes are truck and #173 shoes are car rear. Not sure what the difference is, if any nowadays.
    I have disk brake rear drums and ran across either #53's in a #173 box or Vise Versa. Anyway, the shoes were stamped one thing and the box said another... They fit the backing plate, but I couldn't get the drum over the linings. That is, until I realized the e-brake actuator crossbar wasn't deep enough to allow the shoes to retract enough. I had to file the channel about 1/8" on each side and then things worked ok. I believe the shoes were on 173 stampings..
    Bob Johnstone

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64V-K7 View Post
    I have disk brake rear drums and ran across either #53's in a #173 box or Vise Versa. Anyway, the shoes were stamped one thing and the box said another... They fit the backing plate, but I couldn't get the drum over the linings. That is, until I realized the e-brake actuator crossbar wasn't deep enough to allow the shoes to retract enough. I had to file the channel about 1/8" on each side and then things worked ok. I believe the shoes were on 173 stampings..
    Might have been re lined with oversized linings. Another "fix" would have been to have the shoes ground to fit the drum, if you can find a place that still does it. Unfortunately, my local re-liner, a one man shop where I had been getting my re-lined shoes for 40 years or more - passed away a couple of years ago. His kids closed the shop and tore down the building, even.

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