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Thread: Mike "Dirty Jobs" Rowe Nails It

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Mike "Dirty Jobs" Rowe Nails It

    I hope all the Fox News haters, et al, on the forum will overlook the source of this great interview with Mike Rowe of "Dirty Jobs" fame. As a former Auto Mechanics teacher and strong proponent of the idea that not everyone belongs in college, I thoroughly enjoyed Mike's interview and hope others will also.

    We have many tradesmen here on the forum who will likely testify to the conditions and predispositions Mike describes. (A friend of mine recently sold his half of a local Auto Repair Shop to his partner and retired early because one of the factors they were constantly fighting was finding good techs to wrench on the cars. 'Can't say as I blame him, much as I hated to see him go.)

    I'm happy that Vocational Education has such a good, honest, decent, likable spokesman as Mike Rowe. Enjoy:

    http://conservativevideos.com/mike-rowe-really-want-make-america-great-youve-got-make-work-cool-video/?newsletter_uid=2686&newsletter_date=03%2F02%2F17


    (BTW: This will be a good test of the forum's "tolerance," to see if those who can't stand the source --or the poster? -- gripe enough to have the interview deleted, regardless of the person being interviewed or what he says. I can't imagine many forum participants disagreeing with Mike's overall position. Perhaps an immediate Topic LOCK would be in order so members may enjoy Mike's good words and valuable insight without having to put up with petty nonsense about the venue in which he presented them.)

    RIGHT ON, Mike. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

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    I agree with Bob; Mr. Rowe is a powerful advocate for the skills that are needed in the country. BTW, after viewing it I reflected on the fact that Bob must be gun-shy as I cannot imagine how anyone could object to this interview and the points made IMHO.

    M
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    Mike Rowe is wrong on one statement he made in that video about making America Great Again. AMERICA IS ALREADY GREAT has been and always will be. I do agree with Rowe on several points he made in the video.

    John S.

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    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    I saw that interview. Pretty straightforward without choosing a political side in my opinion. Instead, a rather pragmatic view..."gotta make work cool again!"

    I recall when folks proudly wore work uniforms, service station attendants, car hops, delivery drivers, taxi drivers, etc. Some of the most mundane jobs involved a certain amount of professional decorum, pride, and a communication vocabulary.

    Now...mumbling potheads with head to toe tattoos, flip flops, and enough piercings to stock a scrap yard.

    Yeah...we need to figure out a way to make work "COOL."...agan
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    Silver Hawk Member Chris Pile's Avatar
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    Between Mike and bike builder Jesse James, I'd say the coolness of working with your hands has been upped by several notches here in the US. Let's hope it takes...
    The only difference between death and taxes is that death does not grow worse every time Congress convenes. - Will Rogers

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Funny he goes on and on ranting about school counselors.

    I did mention them in my post here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...onger-relevant

    Craig

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Pile View Post
    Between Mike and bike builder Jesse James, I'd say the coolness of working with your hands has been upped by several notches here in the US. Let's hope it takes...
    AMEN to that, Chris. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    I'm a strong advocate that many kids would be far ahead going into the trades rather than college. So many come out with loads of debt and no job. Here in Glendale, AZ the Glendale Community college has auto mechanics programs sponsored by Ford, GM, and Fiat-Chrysler. A job is waiting for them when they graduate.

    Denny L

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    I agree with everything Mike Rowe says, however, I think that being an auto mechanic today and having to work on today's cars is extremely demanding. There just isn't enough room to work.

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    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lark55 View Post
    I agree with everything Mike Rowe says, however, I think that being an auto mechanic today and having to work on today's cars is extremely demanding. There just isn't enough room to work.
    I agree.

    These days, there are trades where a hard-working guy or gal with a basic high-school education, and a willingness to apply themselves, can make far more in their first year out of school than many four year graduates can make in their first year out of school.

    Many kids don't know that though. Their schools have shut down their trades programs and many of these kids these days spend half their time dinking around with game consoles and tech, thinking that they're going to be the next dot com guru. Most won't make it very far in that world. The oil-boom days of personal computing and dot com are long gone now; in fact they have a glut of programmers and the more efficient they keep making things work the fewer personnel are needed. Hell Microsoft just laid off more than 8,000 employees and it didn't hurt their bottom line at all - their still producing more and more of what they do. Don't get me wrong; some of these tech company guys make very good bank, and are solidly in the upper middle class; but they and are probably going to be there for the duration, unless something else comes along that will be the next personal computer or the next Windows. I don't think it's that likely, though. Things like that seem to come and go in surges, like waves, we were up there on top in 1997 but the tide went out and now the tech industry these days is kind of like whatever it is they do in office building cubicles - settled into a steady routine of normalcy instead of eureka moments.

    I have a number of multi-millionaire clients who are constantly buying real estate who were in on the early tech and dot com stuff. They are filthy rich and constantly getting richer because they got in on the bottom floor. I also have thousands of clients who work at these same tech companies now as programmers and what-have-you; and they are in the low to middle middle class and aren't likely to go much higher very soon. I've talked to them about it. They shrug their shoulders - kind of a "day late and a dollar short" resignation dominates this group.

    Some of these techies I've met have teenage children. I see them sitting there as I'm going through the home. They'll be spread-eagled on a sofa shooting monsters on the big screen instead of going outside on beautiful days or heading out to an after school job. I just shake my head. Every once in a while I'll engage one in conversation: "Going to College when you graduate?" "Yep." "What are you going to major in?" "Computer science." They think that since their Dad managed to do OK they'll do better. Not sure about that.

    See lots of chubby kids these days too(I'm being polite). When we were kids there were always one or two chubby kids in a class but it was nothing like it is today. Today, most kids I see are in what we would politely term "husky" when I was kid when we didn't want to refer to someone as fat. Back then, it was the old farts like I am now that would be the fat folks, not the kids. Now I think, at least from what I observe - that the ratio must be about 50/50 overweight teenagers versus overweight adults. Hell, some of us old farts are thin compared to some of the parents these days - it's scary, I was thinking about that the last time I got on a plane to fly somewhere. S'funny, when I'd talked to the lady that booked my seat I'd told her, "I'm a chubette. I'm going to need a seat that's fat-guy-friendly. OK?" She chuckled and said she'd take care of it. Boy did she (NOT!), I found myself in the center seat wedged in between two guys. Now, my doc has told me that I need to lose at least 50 pounds. I definitely fit the mold of the old farts I remember way back in the day; but those guys on either side of me? Whooey, they made me look like a lightweight. Those two were were definitely members of the North American Beef Trust. As we were accelerating down the runway, I glanced around the cabin, sized up the other folks in the cabin and suddenly wondered if the pilots had taken into account today's average adult weight versus what I'd been taught to figure for adult weight when I went through ground school waaaaay back in 1977. (These days I can't even remember what that was - 180 maybe?) I actually held my breath until I felt the plane roll upward. I'd been secretly convinced it wasn't going to get off the ground unless about half the passengers deplaned, and had figured we were going to plow right through that barricade. It was a big relief when I looked out the window and saw the end-of-runway barrier pass under the plane. Very uncomfortable four hours - I never want to be that close to another guy again. The only thing that gave me solace was the secret victory I felt when those two had to ask the stewardess for seatbelt extensions and I didn't need one- hooyeah!

    Young folks in most of the trades today seem to be far paid better than they were when I got out of school. In high school I spent two years going through an auto mechanics course at the B.O.C.E.S. academy in Arlington (Poughkeepsie) NY. After graduation, I was constantly frustrated by the way they paid mechanics in those days. I had a formal education as well as years of street education on cars by then; and I was easily turning out as many paid hours a day as the best and most experienced old school "mechanics" in the shop. Yet, I couldn't get equal pay.

    I was "the Kid." Instead of putting me on the Chryslers where I could have generated some really decent income for the shop, they stuck me on the Toyotas. Don't know why, but the same number of paid hours on Toyotas in those days never netted nearly as much revenue as repairs on those Chrysler products. Old Chet, the shops "master" mechanic, would come in walking unsteadily and smelling like whiskey every morning, lean against a car smoking between four and eight cigarettes, after he clocked in but before he even opened his tool box, and then he would move around the shop all day like a sloth, coffee cup always full - cigarette always drooping from his lip - stopping every five minutes to talk for fifteen minutes and always taking twice as long on the official sit-down coffee breaks than anyone else - all without a single word from the Service manager.

    After a few months of demonstrating to them that I actually did know what I was doing and could turn out good work. I finally got up the nerve to ask for a raise. The Service Manager said, "What for? You just got here." I said, "Well, because I've been keeping track and I know for a fact that I'm turning out far more paid hours on those Toyotas than Chet is doing on those Chryslers. Take me off those Toyotas, put me on the Chryslers and I guarantee you that in six months, after I've figured out all of the little idiosyncrasies of those Chryslers, I'll be out-producing him on the Chryslers. So, raise me to 2/3 of what you are paying him and let's make a deal that you'll pay me what you are paying him six months later, IF I equal or exceed his weekly paid flat rate hours." The Service Manager said, "What? You want us to pay you what we pay Chet, just 'cuz you produce more paid hours? No way! Chet's an experienced mechanic; you're a kid. Chet has a mortgage; you split the cost of a cheap apartment with a buddy. Chet is the only automatic transmission tech we've got." I said, "No he isn't. I've fixed a bunch of 'em. All you have to do is let me show you I can do 'em." He said, "What, and piss Chet off 'cuz you took jobs we're supposed to reserve for him? No way." "Well, I should be getting at least double what I'm being paid now and that will still be only 60% of what you're paying Chet. That would be fair, since I'm producing more paid flat-rate hours."

    The service manager looked at me like I'd just escaped from an asylum and said, "But you're a Kid! Nobody pays anyone your age that kind of money, I don't care how good you are. You're a kid! Tell, you what. We'll increase your hourly rate $.25 an hour now and another $.25 six months after that. Then, if you're still here after two years, an additional $.50. By then you'll be making 150% of what you were making when we hired you." I said, "Yeah, and that will still be only about a third of what you're paying Chet, because you are giving him plenty of paid overtime; and by then I'll have two years experience here and will be producing a whole lot more hours than I am now. How do you see that as fair?" He was pissed off by then, "Hey, Mike, how many times do I have to tell you this, you're-a-f*****g-kid! Ain't no way anyone is going to pay you that kind of money. Get married, have some kids, buy a house, get a mortgage and then come back and see me and we'll talk." I sucked it up and went back to work. At least I'd make enough extra for a case of beer every week.

    At the one year anniversary I went in and demanded they double my salary. When they didn't, I packed my tools into my car and drove down to Brookfield, CT and off-loaded them at a different Toyota dealer's shop. I'd been to visit that dealership the previous weekend. They worked half a day on Saturdays and I caught the Service Manager at his desk enjoying his pipe. I asked him if they were looking for any experienced mechanics. He said to me, "Kid, you don't look old enough to be an "experienced mechanic." I need a mechanic but he needs to be a Toyota mechanic. These cars are smaller and take some getting used to." I said I was a Toyota mechanic and a damned good one too. He looked like he didn't believe me, so he then set about asking me a bunch of questions about different things on Toyotas, about various recalls, about little tips and tricks for certain maladies. I answered them all easily.

    He finally said, "Well, it sure sounds like you know your Toyotas, when can you start?" I said, "I can start when I know I'll be paid a fair wage and won't be taken advantage of just because I'm a "kid." He said, "Well Mike, I want you to come work here; but I can't pay you as much as our top guy - he's got a wife and kids and a mortgage to pay, you know - but I really need an experienced Toyota guy. so, show me a pay stub for whatever they are paying you an hour at Greer's and I'll double it for starting pay and add a buck to that a year later. That's the best I can do for now." It was good enough. A year and a half later I purchased an ARCO Service Station contract in my home town, where I gave the other two local repair shops a real good run for their money - until I had a car accident and broke my femur. I sold the shop. Then once I got healed up it was back to Toyota again.

    For the next few years I was still "the Kid" and still wasn't afforded the same respect, and pay, as the top old school guys, even though I was doing as much, and often more, paid flat rate hours than most others, but I moved around from Toyota dealer to Toyota dealer; always squeezing more out of the next than I'd been making at the prior. Still, it wasn't that great, so I augmented my income by working for my father, a custom builder, on nights and weekends. I managed to buy my first new car - a 1970-1/2 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400 - and made enough to pay my share of the rent and utilities, keep food in my stomach, clothes on my back, make my car payment, pay my car insurance, keep gas in the tank, keep enlarging my tool collection, put a little away in the bank every week and still have enough left over to party. It was OK but it wasn't great. Then about the spring of 1975 - right around the time they first started coming out with the N.I.A.S.E. stuff - I had had enough, chucked the whole thing and went into the military.

    There was one course that I considered a really good mechanic's course back then at a place called Vale Tech in Vale, PA. It was a 14-month intensive course - 7 months learning auto mechanics and then 7 months learning auto body repair. Cost was steep for those days. I thought about going there after high school but it was just too expensive for me in those days, so I just put it out of my mind. These young auto-mechanic school graduates these days have to know just about as much about programming as some Microsoft Tech before they can get out of school. Then, to enhance their credibility when they say they can do something, they are tested and certified in those aspects of the trade that they want to add to their resume' in order to demand pay commensurate with their skill set. What a change from the old days! I've talked to a few youngsters and they are making good bank - right out of school - at rates equal to anyone else in their shop that produces the same level and quality of work.

    Kind of makes me wish I'd hung around a while in '75. By the time I got out of the military computers were in limited use in the specialty I was in and in short supply. I could barely use a word processor to type a letter by the time I got out; and found myself baffled by all the tech stuffed under the dash and hood of my cars whenever I lifted the hood. Twenty years later I'm still a techphobe and can barely get by with these damned things. Guess it's a good thing we have those trades these days where a fellow working hard and working honestly can do well without that sheepskin, or I'd be royally screwed.

    Now if we could just get more of these young folks - especially some of these inner-city youth - to take an interest in the trades and realize that they can do as good, if not better out of the chute than most of these young folks with sheep skins are doing, we might be able to turn this thing around. If we don't manage to swing these kids toward the trades, we're going to be like Saudi Arabia someday. Ever shaken hands with a Saudi man? Their hands are soft and fleshy like the hands of teenage girls who've never lifted a finger around the house, helped with the chores or played any sports. Even their "tough" guys like the cops and their soldiers have those hands!

    They are so unused to doing any sort of physical labor or fixing anything that they bring in foreign contract laborers and tradesmen from Bangladesh or Indonesia to fix everything and ply the trades that none of them have learned how to do - like fix cars, work construction, work the oil fields. Those are jobs reserved for their imported help. They house those workers in these little cramped immigrant-labor villages surrounded by walls - kind of like the American compounds for the Aramco employees, but way smaller and basically like living in a labor camp. In 1991 our company had to spend several weeks living in one of those compounds while we cleaned our gear and prepared to return to Europe after Desert Storm. We had less than 200 people housed in an area that the Saudis said would normally accommodate 500 and we were cramped as hell. They finally moved us to Kobar Towers where we stayed in luxurious western-style apartments that were new and vacant - yep the same towers that were blown up with the Marines in them years later. The Saudi men I saw basically don't lift a finger to do much of anything except drive their cars, stand around in groups socializing and drinking tea and talking all day. They make their "living" by collecting their monthly allotment from the state. I'm sure there are some of them working in banks and jewelry shops and other places where there is no physical labor involved and they won't get their spotless white robe thingies dirty, but one thing you aren't going to see them do is do something that will get them dirty and cause them to have to exert themselves. If we keep on the path we're going, not producing enough tradesmen and producing too many techies that don't want to get dirty or exert themselves, that's going to be us someday - only there won't be a monthly check coming to us every month by way of oil money we did nothing to personally earn.
    Last edited by hausdok; 03-03-2017 at 05:39 AM.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
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    '58 Packard Hawk
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    (What is it with me and discontinued/orphan cars?)

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lark55 View Post
    I agree with everything Mike Rowe says, however, I think that being an auto mechanic today and having to work on today's cars is extremely demanding. There just isn't enough room to work.
    Besides the lack of a 'mechanic friendly' working environment we now see under the hoods and dashes of new vehicles, if someone wants to start up their own 'all-make' repair garage, be prepared to shell out lots of $$$ for diagnostic equipment (code readers, etc.), special tools, and other repair devices to service them.

    Craig

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    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    I agree that not everyone is suited to a college degree. The thing that irks me is the anti education tilt of politics today. That is to say, it is demonized as being elitist. Never stop learning or striving to be better. That's my creedo.
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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezhawk View Post
    I agree that not everyone is suited to a college degree. The thing that irks me is the anti education tilt of politics today. That is to say, it is demonized as being elitist. Never stop learning or striving to be better. That's my creedo.
    Yes and no, Brad.

    To a goodly extent, upper education elitists have fostered any "anti" upper-education tilt in politics or the culture by setting themselves up as the know-it-alls too many of them envision themselves being due to the Certificates of Superior Knowledge & Intellect wallpapering their ivory-tower offices; testaments from fellow academics as to how smart all of them are.

    Humility has never been one of their stronger suits; if they don't want to be treated as elitists, they shouldn't act like elitists.

    You're admonition to never stop learning is much appreciated, it's just that most "real" learning doesn't take place in a formal school environment, IMHO. Those who won't acknowledge the value of others who have lived life in The Real World (not you, I know!) short-change themselves as to being wholly and truly educated.

    In my lifetime (age 71 two weeks ago), I've learned every bit as much -if not more- from people without a formal education as from people with a wad of diplomas in their portfolio. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Proudly and happily worn part-time from 1966-1971. It no longer fits and the dry cleaner did their best to clean it this week, but with limited success:



    (If you think it is stained and dirty now, you should have seen it after hanging in the closet for 45+ years!) BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Mike, I just took the time to read your entire Post #10. Most interesting; thanks.

    By chance did you look youthful when you were being treated like a "kid?" I'm not being funny; some guys just look younger than others. It would seem that such a condition would work against your desire to be accepted as knowledgeable and worth the money you asked for.

    Your closing comments comparing us to the Saudis might not be far-fetched, I'm sorry to say.

    Thanks again for the interesting dissertation. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Bob: While you were wearing that uniform shirt part time from 1966 to 1971 I was doing something a little different from 1968 through 1970. In January 1968 before I graduated from high school I joined the US Navy Reserves, called to active duty in early 1969, went to Vietnam in 1969, came home late in 1970 from Vietnam. You must have had some type of draft deferment during the years you were wearing that shirt part time or were dam lucky not to be drafted. The colors of the uniforms I wore during 1968 through 1970 were Navy Blue and Army Brown.

    John S.





    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Proudly and happily worn part-time from 1966-1971. It no longer fits and the dry cleaner did their best to clean it this week, but with limited success:



    (If you think it is stained and dirty now, you should have seen it after hanging in the closet for 45+ years!) BP

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    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Proudly and happily worn part-time from 1966-1971. It no longer fits and the dry cleaner did their best to clean it this week, but with limited success:



    (If you think it is stained and dirty now, you should have seen it after hanging in the closet for 45+ years!) BP
    Hi Bob,

    I had that shirt. Except mine was blue with a red and white oval that said Mike and over the left pocket was a long white rectangle with red border and the word TOYOTA. Re. the service station comments. Only about a month ago I was thinking that it might be kind of cool to open up another filling station and have a two-man crew like I had in '71 running out to the island, taking the order, starting the gas in the tank and then hitting the front and back windshield and checking oil and fluids, collecting the money, run inside, ring it up and then run back with the change - just like the old days. A few high school kids manning the pump, spotless rest rooms, and hustle and service. Who knows? It might be such a novelty that long lines form at the island. Then again, it might flop and I'd have screwed myself again.

    Your question - did I look like a kid? I looked exactly like that guy at the link below when I initially started but a couple of years later I had hair down to my shoulders and kind of looked like a not very attractive girl, I'm sorry to say.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...4589976&type=3
    Last edited by hausdok; 03-03-2017 at 09:51 PM.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
    Kenmore, Washington
    hausdok@msn.com

    '58 Packard Hawk
    '05 Subaru Baja Turbo
    '71 Toyota Crown Coupe
    '69 Pontiac Firebird
    (What is it with me and discontinued/orphan cars?)

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    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Well...I was in Nam from November '67 to Nov '68. Made it in time for the big Tet shindig. It was a million dollar experience I wouldn't give five cents to repeat. I harbor no ill feelings to those who didn't make the trip. Like anything in life, you can find a way turn it into a positive, or allow it to ruin you. For me, it was part of my life's journey. An adventure.



    As a young troubled country bumpkin, more innocent in things of the world than the character portrayed as Gomer Pyle, it provided enlightenment, and an opportunity to mature in ways not available among family & friends. I joined the Air Force because I felt a sense of duty to my country. I also knew it would make me eligible for the G.I. bill, and despite getting made fun of & ridicule from family & friends, I kept that goal in focus. Once I finished my military stint, I was shocked at how hostile the local VA rep was when I attempted to qualify for college assistance. Only after working & saving my own money for my first semester tuition, was I able to get assistance. When I did, the $400 a month didn't cover tuition & books, let alone housing, food, gas, etc.

    One thing about not starting college until 24 years of age. After surviving a war, living on my own, paying bills...I had little patience for certain professors who thought they could indoctrinate me with some of the "junk science" crap some of them were pushing back in the early '70's. More than once, I have let a professor know I was paying for an "education, and not an indoctrination!"

    Truth is, the best education today is being performed in our Technical Colleges and Community Vocational schools. They are the ones teaching folks how to accomplish tasks that are directly related to the money in their wallet. Just think, when some highly educated Ivy League Professor, with all his knowledge finds himself helpless due to Alzheimer's, dementia, or just old age, he/she will end up totally dependent on a certified nursing assistant (CNA) most likely educated in a community college. Today, a neighbor, (college educated business owner) stopped by to give me a couple hundred bucks for repairing the kitchen sink in a house he's selling. (I would'a been happy with 30 bucks for the ten minute job.) I had just completed a four wheel disc brake job on my Dodge Ram. Doing it myself was less than $70.

    I know a bunch of college educated folks that can neither do plumbing or mechanic work, and lots of smart technically educated people that can, who charge them exorbitant amounts of money. Not that one is smarter than the other, but appropriately educated for their chosen field. Making work cool again, should include the attitude that all worthwhile work should be a source of pride. Whether you are a cook, server, or brain surgeon. There is a worthwhile pursuit for all, regardless of intellect, or talent. Personally, I have a broad range of education, experience, and skills. It in no way makes me better than anyone else...however...it certainly gives me more opportunity for a variety of "life adventure" than those more narrowly focused.
    John Clary
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  19. #19
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard53 View Post
    Bob: While you were wearing that uniform shirt part time from 1966 to 1971 I was doing something a little different from 1968 through 1970. In January 1968 before I graduated from high school I joined the US Navy Reserves, called to active duty in early 1969, went to Vietnam in 1969, came home late in 1970 from Vietnam. You must have had some type of draft deferment during the years you were wearing that shirt part time or were dam lucky not to be drafted. The colors of the uniforms I wore during 1968 through 1970 were Navy Blue and Army Brown.

    John S.
    Thank you for your service. Not everyone needed deferments and not everyone chose to enlist. There was certainly nothing wrong if Bob chose not to go into the military, pursued other interests and was never drafted. Some guys and gals chose the service - some didn't. As far as being drafted - that was just the luck of the draw back then. My lottery number was 333. I was called in for my physical, classified as 1A and never heard from them again. I wasn't a college boy, but I figured with such a high number I wasn't likely to get drafted for a very long time; so I stayed busy trying to make it as a mechanic and had no interest in getting involved in what by then appeared to be a hopeless situation for all sides. I went into the Army in August 1975 though; and stayed there almost twenty one years. I participated in several conflicts and retired in 1996 as a Master Sergeant. I've been self-employed since I retired. I'm proud of my time in the service but not rabidly so. It was what it was - a job and a duty and most of us tried, most of the time, to do the job the best that we could. I have a high school diploma and about half a year at university in a major that has nothing to do with what I do now. Because I was conditioned as a teenager to believe that I needed a four year degree to get ahead in this world, I still sometimes think about finishing up with university and getting my degree - but at this point in my life it's not going to help me or hurt me - it would just be another attaboy on the wall. Not sure I want to expend all that mental energy for something that really wasn't needed.

    My little brother got fed up with high school at the age of 17, punched out a pervert of a math teacher and ran away. My dad went bonkers, searched high and low but couldn't find him. That's because his big brother - me - had bought him a bus ticket to Niagara Falls and he got off the bus and calmly walked into Canada pretending to be one of a bunch of kids in a very large family, walking right past the Canadian border control guy. He hooked up with a childhood friend whose family had moved to Canada and lay low up there. Eventually he decided that he wanted to join the army and learn how to repair helicopters. Until my father finally caved in and agreed to the kid's wishes, his location was a close-held secret. Finally the old man caved, the kid came home, took his GED, passed it easily, went into the Army, got his training and shipped out for Nam in mid-71. He returned a year later and was mustered out six months early. I guess things were winding down by then and they were down-sizing the force and letting lots of folks go early. Shortly after he was mustered out he had a motorcycle accident and lost his right foot at the ankle and was fitted with a prostheses. He went on to work for Pratt and Whitney in Connecticut, then the US Air Force as a civilian quality control inspector at the same plant in Connecticut, then to the US embassy in Israel for three years where he supervised an Israeli maintenance crew that serviced and refurbished US and allied F16s, then he did three years as a maintenance tech on the Presidential Helicopter Fleet, and then about another five in the old McDonnell-Douglas-now-Boeing plant in South Carolina as head of the quality control section. Then he did a year in Iraq in the blue zone, returned to the plant in South Carolina and three years ago he retired, got his private pilot's license, bought a couple of vintage airplanes that he's restoring and eventually he got his instructor and twin engine ratings. He lives in Piedmont, SC now. He's done pretty well for himself - all with only a GED.

    Millennials don't understand these things. They are so used to getting obstacles to their progress removed to make it easier for them that they think all they have to do is get a degree and everything is going to be swell. Try to tell them anything different and they blow you off. I've had more than a few tell me that I wasted my life as a soldier because, in their opinion, people only go into the military because they are too dumb to make it on the outside. To some of them, serving in the military isn't any different than lolling on Mom's sofa with a controller in their hands and shooting digital figures on a television screen. Grounded in reality they ain't. Ask 'em what they plan to do with their life and you get told that they are going to make it in this world while staying clean and not having to do any physical labor, and they are fully confident that they'll make their first million before they are twenty-five. Sometimes, trying to reason with one of them is like talking to a signpost - no indication of any active brain activity or comprehension as you look them in the eyes - that is, if they'll even deign to meet your lowly gaze.

    Last edited by hausdok; 03-03-2017 at 10:32 PM.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
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  20. #20
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hausdok View Post
    Re: The service station comments.

    Only about a month ago I was thinking that it might be kind of cool to open up another filling station and have a two-man crew like I had in '71 running out to the island, taking the order, starting the gas in the tank and then hitting the front and back windshield and checking oil and fluids, collecting the money, run inside, ring it up and then run back with the change - just like the old days. A few high school kids manning the pump, spotless rest rooms, and hustle and service. Who knows? It might be such a novelty that long lines form at the island. Then again, it might flop and I'd have screwed myself again.

    Your question - did I look like a kid? I looked exactly like that guy in my avatar when I initially started but a couple of years later I had hair down to my shoulders and kind of looked like a not very attractive girl, I'm sorry to say.
    I hear that, Mike.

    Just don't forget the free glass tumblers in a cardboard carrying case with a fill-up during your Grand Opening.

    Late July 1956:





    Check out those hours: 7AM until 8PM. I have no doubt my late Uncle Milton (Dad's younger brother) was there for all 11 hours the new station was open, during the Grand Opening. (What were we saying about people being willing to WORK?) BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    I hear that, Mike.

    Just don't forget the free glass tumblers in a cardboard carrying case with a fill-up during your Grand Opening.
    If they don't give S&H Green Stamps I'm not stopping. Bob
    , ,

  22. #22
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    If they don't give S&H Green Stamps I'm not stopping. Bob
    How many do you want, Bob? I've got 3/4 book of S&H Green Stamps but the S&H company will only buy whole books. (Seriously, there is a cash market for them today, surprisingly; Google it! ) BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

  23. #23
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Yeah,

    My place was open from 6 am to Midnight Monday through Thursday and opened at 6 am on Friday and didn't close till midnight on Sunday. I would usually work through the weekend. One of the gas jockeys would take over at the office for about four or five hours on Saturday and Sunday afternoon while I went back and stretched out on a cot for 4-5 hours in the parts room. I didn't make them wear the hats but they did have to wear uniforms and they did have to hustle. If they weren't moving fast enough there was a bunch of guys waiting in line for a chance to get the job and be able to bring their hot rod into the shop when nobody was at the island and there wasn't any other work; so that they could tinker and soup it up.

    One Sunday I didn't get my afternoon nap 'cuz the kids were at a ball game. That night a young lady I knew asked me for lift home to Dover Plains - 10 miles down route 22. At midnight I closed up, she got in the car and we headed for Dover. Three miles north of Dover I dozed off at the wheel, crossed the center line and hit a semi head on. Fractured my left femur, shortening my left leg an inch and spent the next six months on crutches. She walked away with a bump on the head. My car was totaled, the semi looked like it has suffered an abrasion on its cheek. The driver was pissed because I'd delayed him.

    I closed the shop doors not long after that and sold the business to a couple of mechanics I'd worked with at Ghetty Ford in Millbrook for a few months when I was still in the high school trade school course. Really didn't have a choice; I couldn't work on cars, which is where I'd been making the real money, and the kids were running the station. The daily receipts didn't match up with the gas used or the reduction in parts inventory. It was good while it lasted, but I sold it before they cleaned me out and left me in the hole.

    Learned that night not to be swayed by a pretty face, gorgeous blue eyes, batting eyelashes and a lilting voice above a killer body.
    Last edited by hausdok; 03-03-2017 at 10:36 PM.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
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    '58 Packard Hawk
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  24. #24
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    I love all this reminiscing about the good old days while disparaging todays youth. I'm sure my lazy grand daughter that got a full scholarship to an ivy league school would appreciate it.
    When YOU went to school tuition could be paid for while attending school, and working part time. Tuition for Yale was 2400 a year in 1970. Hourly wage was 1.40 an hour. Today, the same tuition averages nearly 50,000. Hourly wage, 7.50. You have to work OVER 17 hours a day to pay it off as you go. Sleep is over rated for these LAZY millenials.
    Stick to watching and following views that reinforce your narrow view of the world. Shout get off my lawn to the neighbors. Tell the world how backwards thinking you are. see how far you get in this world while you strip all your comforts and protections away from todays youth, because you already benefited from them and are near death, so no one else should have them.

    Maybe that is not how you think...but what are we supposed to think, if that is what you post?
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  25. #25
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hausdok View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHPfgsTVTjA
    We saw that video here; along with even MORE comments on the subject:

    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...ve-Millennials

    Craig

  26. #26
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    Locally we have the College of Building Arts. It is located in a converted trolley barn from the 1890's. Talk about talent, these students are working with plaster, wood, glass & brick. Power tools aren't allowed the 1st year. Ambition & skill has placed several students on projects around the world.

  27. #27
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    Bob, you're right about learning from others. A group of my high school journalism class was producing the local newspaper after graduation. At $1.85 an hour we had a crash course in ad & page building. Long hours and determination turned into a 20 year career in the graphics industry.
    My wife & I started our own graphics business in Toronto, which generated a commercial bldg. & a weekend cottage.
    I don't have regrets about not going to college. I wouldn't have made a very good frat boy anyhow! ☺
    Last edited by rbruner; 03-04-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  28. #28
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Well, sorry that you took it as disparagement and narrow mindedness. I was describing what I've been seeing with my own eyes and hearing with my own ears because I feel I have a very open view of the world around me. I know there are many other folks who have seen and heard the same kinds of things from millennials - hell, it's the stuff of SNL and late night TV these days. I can't help it, and certainly won't be offended or feel bad if you took it differently.

    You can't please everyone all the time. You can only please some of the people some of the time

    Quote Originally Posted by bezhawk View Post
    I love all this reminiscing about the good old days while disparaging todays youth. I'm sure my lazy grand daughter that got a full scholarship to an ivy league school would appreciate it.
    When YOU went to school tuition could be paid for while attending school, and working part time. Tuition for Yale was 2400 a year in 1970. Hourly wage was 1.40 an hour. Today, the same tuition averages nearly 50,000. Hourly wage, 7.50. You have to work OVER 17 hours a day to pay it off as you go. Sleep is over rated for these LAZY millenials.
    Stick to watching and following views that reinforce your narrow view of the world. Shout get off my lawn to the neighbors. Tell the world how backwards thinking you are. see how far you get in this world while you strip all your comforts and protections away from todays youth, because you already benefited from them and are near death, so no one else should have them.

    Maybe that is not how you think...but what are we supposed to think, if that is what you post?
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
    Kenmore, Washington
    hausdok@msn.com

    '58 Packard Hawk
    '05 Subaru Baja Turbo
    '71 Toyota Crown Coupe
    '69 Pontiac Firebird
    (What is it with me and discontinued/orphan cars?)

  29. #29
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbruner View Post
    Locally we have the College of Building Arts. It is located in a converted trolley barn from the 1890's. Talk about talent, these students are working with plaster, wood, glass & brick. Power tools aren't allowed the 1st year. Ambition & skill has placed several students on projects around the world.
    I believe there is a college in Kentucky that added a building conservation course a few years ago.

    A home inspector I know from back east, Ezra Malarnee, dropped out of the gig for a couple of years to attend that course and earn a degree in that discipline. I'm pretty sure he's older than I am.

    I've seen a few of his discussions on various home inspector discussion boards. I think he's returned to doing home inspections and that his intent was always to come back. I seem to recall him telling someone in one of those discussions that he took the course so that that he'd have a better understanding of how things were done on older homes, which make up the majority of the homes that he inspects in his area; and that, by learning building conservation techniques, he is better able to advise his clients about issues found in those older homes and is able to make competent recommendation for techniques to be used to bring some of those grand old homes back.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
    Kenmore, Washington
    hausdok@msn.com

    '58 Packard Hawk
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    (What is it with me and discontinued/orphan cars?)

  30. #30
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    Mike: I would say that we are about the same age give o r take a couple of years which is to say we are of the same generation.. You sure are acting as if our generation was perfect which is far from the truth. Part of the problems we have with some millennials today is because of our generations drug culture of the late 60's dating although the 80's that our generation is famous for. Remember pot, heroin, cocaine, lsd and other drugs our generation used. That drug culture has migrated down through two generations now.

    You have made comments about the weight of some children today do yourself a favor take a good long look at yourself in a mirror Being that you stated that your doctor told you to lose 50 lbs. being that much over weight what kind of example have you set for your children and grand children in that area of human health. When I graduated from high school I was 6 ft 2 inches tall weighed 160 lbs sock & wet I was real skinny then. Got on the scales at the local YMCA today weighed 187 lbs in my street cloths and shoes. I work out three times a week which helps me from gaining excess weight because of the back problems I have. I could never imagine letting myself get 50 lbs over weight. When the last time you did any hard physical work.

    From being on local school board for several years I know first hand we have a lot of young people out their that are very bright hard working persons making great contributions to our society despite what you think.

    John S.
    Last edited by Packard53; 03-04-2017 at 08:06 PM.

  31. #31
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hausdok View Post
    Well, sorry that you took it as disparagement and narrow mindedness. I was describing what I've been seeing with my own eyes and hearing with my own ears because I feel I have a very open view of the world around me. I know there are many other folks who have seen and heard the same kinds of things from millennials - hell, it's the stuff of SNL and late night TV these days. I can't help it, and certainly won't be offended or feel bad if you took it differently.

    You can't please everyone all the time. You can only please some of the people some of the time
    The reply wasn't directed at you.
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  32. #32
    Chief Cat Herder showbizkid's Avatar
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    Fair warning now : any more sniping and this thread gets locked. Play nice.
    Clark in San Diego
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  33. #33
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard53 View Post
    Mike: I would say that we are about the same age give o r take a couple of years which is to say we are of the same generation.. You sure are acting as if our generation was perfect which is far from the truth. Part of the problems we have with some millennials today is because of our generations drug culture of the late 60's dating although the 80's that our generation is famous for. Remember pot, heroin, cocaine, lsd and other drugs our generation used. That drug culture has migrated down through two generations now.

    You have made comments about the weight of some children today do yourself a favor take a good long look at yourself in a mirror Being that you stated that your doctor told you to lose 50 lbs. being that much over weight what kind of example have you set for your children and grand children in that area of human health. When I graduated from high school I was 6 ft 2 inches tall weighed 160 lbs sock & wet I was real skinny then. Got on the scales at the local YMCA today weighed 187 lbs in my street cloths and shoes. I work out three times a week which helps me from gaining excess weight because of the back problems I have. I could never imagine letting myself get 50 lbs over weight. When the last time you did any hard physical work.

    From being on local school board for several years I know first hand we have a lot of young people out their that are very bright hard working persons making great contributions to our society despite what you think.

    John S.
    Hey, it's not a competition. Nobody has to be right here.

    It's personal observations from different perspectives. I've never said that my generation was perfect. Hell, I spent half my life chasing those from my generation that were criminals. If we were such a perfect generation there wouldn't be so many of us who became alcoholics or dope addicts and there wouldn't be so many of our generation in stir.

    When was the last time I did hard physical work? Hmm, well I do that all the time. When was the last time you low-crawled through a space less than twenty inches high through dirt and feces, weaving around piers, rolling over to check the underside of a floor deck every five or six feet, moving up and down the entire length of that crawl about four to six times and making at least one full circuit around the perimeter, pulling yourself under low-hanging ducts using your elbows and pushing with just the tips of your feet; or low-crawled the length of an 18-inch deep attic space moving along the top of ceiling joists without any support between joists that enable you to rest a bit? I assure you, it's very hard and very physical and its like getting several workouts all lumped together - and that happens three or four times a week, adding up to a total of about 4 to 5 hours of hard physical labor spread out through the week. Doesn't seem to do much for the weight though - the weight started coming on in my mid fifties and seems to correlate with when my knees began going bad and I was no longer able to jog. That's OK though. I'm an old fart and typical for the men in my family at this age so I don't sweat it.

    What I was saying about the kids has more to do with them not getting out and exercising, because they are inside in front of the video games, instead of being outside and being active, and I believe it's that which is creating this generation that, unlike back in the 50s or 60s when heavy kids were far fewer, has created a generation of kids where a huge percentage of them are obest. I fully acknowledged that I'm a chubette. But, like you, I was thin as a kid and fat kids in those days were not very many because we, fat kids included, got out in those days, exercised and did stuff. We didn't loll around in front of a TV sucking down sugar-laden drinks all day. Yeah, we sucked down sugar laden drinks, but it was outside and while we were getting exercise. That's the point I was making about the kids. As we get older, our metabolism slows down and we don't burn off as many calories as we should. We are also unable to exercise like we used to. This means when we get to be our age many of us are obese. So be it, we've lived our lives and we don't mind being chubettes. It's a different thing for the kids though - the "stuff" they get to dink around with these days doesn't get them exercising much. A kid that's fat at 9 or 10, who doesn't start losing that weight by the time he or she reaches the teens and then moves into adulthood, has a high likelihood of a future laden with a lifetime of weight-induced health issues.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
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    hausdok@msn.com

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  34. #34
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    Depends on which broad brush one chooses to use. I'll be attending my 4th grand child's High School graduation in 6 years. Like Brad's they have all done well and are moving on toward adulthood.

    Grand daughter (25) full college scholarship, third year in the best Vet grad school in the nation, top of her class and up a 4 AM to be in the clinic at 5AM.
    Grand daughter (22) third year college Going to be a teacher, part time job, coaches her old high school's dance and cheerleading teams.
    Grand daughter (21) third year college, Dean's list, MBA bound two part time jobs.
    Grand son (19) high school senior, Deans list, varsity football three years, state level runner, part time job.

    Am I proud of them, well I put it here. But the bottom line is, the youngen's that want to achieve are still doing it. I watch their class mates cross the stage to get there degrees and see a pretty healthy group of folks. Are there obese one's yup! but the general folks look pretty healthy and are pretty solid academically.

    Now the downside and where the post topic is important IMO.

    My SIL is a fifth grade math/science teacher in this school district. He is also the head JV football coach. He's been teaching in this system for about 20 years. He says his biggest frustration is the feeling of entitlement among some has been growing markedly in the past few years. In his classes historically he says there may have been 1-2 kids that just didn't care and drag down the class but he says it now can approach 40% in some years. He has his ideas on how to change that but it's not for my discussion here.

    Somewhere in the future those expectations and low achievement will need to be dealt with so providing jobs for those that will take them will be important.

    For those that don't want to take them, there will be significant learning experience involved some how.

    I'm not here to discuss solutions but to provide data on both ends of the spectrum.

    I should add that he continues to be pleased with the guys that play football, he says they still have good attitudes train hard and compete as well as ever.

    So grab your brush and paint away.
    , ,

  35. #35
    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hausdok View Post
    Hey, it's not a competition. Nobody has to be right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by showbizkid View Post
    Fair warning now : any more sniping and this thread gets locked. Play nice.
    Well...(unless something untoward happens while I'm typing)...I'm impressed we've made it this far without getting the thread locked.

    Too often, we either post our comments in a way that we stake out our position as an "absolute"...or we misinterpret the comments of others and become combative when it seems to contradict. If we could only not take ourselves too seriously, and realize that life is like the pendulum of a clock, or the rhythm of the surf.

    I have a very dear friend who, although we have much in common, we are polar opposites in many other ways. In regards to our different opinions, I often disarm his "cocksure" conclusions by using the statement..."You should be thankful for my friendship...for if it wasn't for me, there would be no one left on earth to whom you could feel superior!"

    With that, we have a good laugh and move on. There are many good observations in this thread, but as we have observed, there is no "right/wrong" but the perspective of any given wave depends on which side of it you are on. Like our own generation (any generation) there's good & not so good. Disparaging some does not necessarily condemn all. However in-artful our ability to express ourselves clearly, let's do our best to do it with a bit of humility, decorum, and a little humor.

    For me, if things work out, I hope to make it to the York swap meet. If I do, my hope is that anyone reading this, can stand flatfooted, shake my hand, look me in the eye, and see the same excitement regarding all things STUDEBAKER reflected in my expression.
    Last edited by jclary; 03-06-2017 at 07:54 AM.
    John Clary
    Greer, SC
    [IMG][/IMG]
    SDC member since 1975

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