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Thread: 64 Avanti Granatelli R4 Information Selling?

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    64 Avanti Granatelli R4 Information Selling?

    I am trying to figure out the value for the Avanti and R4 engine at this link....http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1...1xaoai045.html. The owner passed away and this car was inherited by a family member who has interest in selling it. I am looking for any kind of help in setting a price for this 64 Avanti and R4 engine. Through my research and knowledge of the classic car market, I've come up with a value, although this Granatelli R4 engine is something that is hard to put a price on. The car is well documented and has won numerous awards at car shows. I'm open to hear from anyone interested in buying it as well. Please serious inquiries only. The owner would rather sell this to someone who will appreciate it's history. They do not want to list at auction or eBay. I have set up a separate email for this at R4seller@yahoo.com. Thanks.

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    I am a little confused are you saying this car left the factory with the R4 engine? If so it would be valuable, otherwise it is just another Avanti that has been modified. Even with a period correct R4 engine, it is interesting but I don't see it as particularly more valuable. Maybe I am missing something.

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    If the original R1 engine is still part of the deal, (Mr. Kamphefner mentioned in his write up that he retained this Avanti's original engine), it might make sense to re-install that original R1 and sell this '64 Avanti in 'original condition'....Most serious collectors are looking for original, "numbers matching" Avantis.

    Then the Granatelli supplied R4 engine, a TRULY rare item, could be auctioned off as the RARE oddity it is....(and no doubt bring BIG bucks!!)

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    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Wow that neat story by long ago friend and Orange Empire Chapter Member Dick Kamphefner, must be REALLY Old, as he died quite a long time ago.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




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    Silver Hawk Member 53k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SN-60 View Post
    If the original R1 engine is still part of the deal, (Mr. Kamphefner mentioned in his write up that he retained this Avanti's original engine), it might make sense to re-install that original R1 and sell this '64 Avanti in 'original condition'....Most serious collectors are looking for original, "numbers matching" Avantis.

    Then the Granatelli supplied R4 engine, a TRULY rare item, could be auctioned off as the RARE oddity it is....(and no doubt bring BIG bucks!!)
    I'm inclined to agree with this analysis. Selling a nice late '64 R-1 Avanti (with all the running changes) with air and a four-speed should bring somewhere in the upper $20,000 range or maybe more (I haven't really kept up on values). Certainly true '64s tend to be worth more than '63s because they represent only about one-fifth or the total Studebaker Avanti production.
    I own a new R-4 engine, serial B-78, which is on display at the Studebaker Museum in South Bend. I had it sold one time for $40,000, but the buyer couldn't come up with the cash so I left it where it is. While you might have some possible buyers that would want the package and would pay a premium price for it, your market will be much larger with people being interested in the nice original 1964 R-1 and a separate market of those interested in the R-4 engine with other plans in mind. So, I think selling the car and the engine separately would bring more money that the car with the R-4 installed. Of course, that depends on how much would be involved in re-installing the original R-1 and have it in good running condition.

    Paul Johnson, Wild and Wonderful West Virginia.
    '64 Daytona Wagonaire, '64 Avanti R-1, Museum R-4 engine, '72 Gravely Model 430 with Onan engine

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    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53k View Post
    /Cut/So, I think selling the car and the engine separately would bring more money that the car with the R-4 installed. Of course, that depends on how much would be involved in re-installing the original R-1 and have it in good running condition.
    That would be after you have the '64 Lark/Hawk R4 Oval Emblems removed that Dick put on the Front Fenders!

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    President Member StudeMichael's Avatar
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    Guys!! Seriously? Some things mean more than money, Like, "At 120 back off the accelerator and then floor it-this is a treat that few will experience and none will forget". R1's are nice for Grandma.

    R4 seller says, "The owner would rather sell this to someone who will appreciate it's history. They do not want to list at auction or eBay".
    Last edited by StudeMichael; 01-07-2017 at 11:28 PM.

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    If its a bonafide Granatelli installed R4, then its as good as factory. All this stupid arguing about whether it rolled off the assembly line like that is bulloney. The Granatellis were authorized Studebaker performance gurus who made cars better and faster. If they built this car under the auspices of the Studebaker brand, then it certainly qualifies as a factory correct installation.
    This whole line of contention is ridiculous. Authorized IS authorized. Look it up in the dictionary.... Oh wait.... I already did: Authorized. approved, recognized, sanctioned; accredited, licensed, certified; official, lawful, legal, legitimate
    sals54

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    Quote Originally Posted by sals54 View Post
    If its a bonafide Granatelli installed R4, then its as good as factory. All this stupid arguing about whether it rolled off the assembly line like that is bulloney. The Granatellis were authorized Studebaker performance gurus who made cars better and faster. If they built this car under the auspices of the Studebaker brand, then it certainly qualifies as a factory correct installation.
    This whole line of contention is ridiculous. Authorized IS authorized. Look it up in the dictionary.... Oh wait.... I already did: Authorized. approved, recognized, sanctioned; accredited, licensed, certified; official, lawful, legal, legitimate

    Sal,......you really should've taken the time to read Mr. Kamphefner's article before you posted. The R4 engine install WAS NOT done by the Granatellis! The installation was done privately...DEFINITELY NOT authorized by Studebaker!

    Add to this equation that Mr Kampherfner's relative, (who's now selling the car), may still have the original matching numbers (RK303) R1 engine, it certainly does make good sense to re-install the R1, sell this nice '64 Avanti "per original",......... then sell the R4 on a "stand alone" basis.

    Keeping this Avanti 'as is' is fine too,.....but I predict that the R4 engine will eventually be removed by someone anyway! (esp if the original R1 is truly still available)

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    Personally I think that R4 should stay in the car. It certainly looks great in there and it was done in the spirit of genuine Studebaker performance, that's for sure. Nice job!

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    I'm with Nels. I would not change the engines. I'd keep it as it is, a rare modified car with a very rare desirable engine. I'd sell it with the original engine as a part of the deal and enjoy it as it is in the mean time.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    As an aside,....the installation of this genuine R4 engine that (then owner) Dick Kamphefner installed into this '64 Avanti reminds me of the story about the genuine R3 engine that George Krem privately installed into his '64 Challenger!

    I wonder if George saved the original 'numbers matching' 259 his Challenger was built with?

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    President Member StudeMichael's Avatar
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    Would you guys be advising the seller to put the R1 engine back in the car if the owner had installed a Granatelli built R3 crate motor instead of an R4?

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    This one has a unique and well documented 'history' of its own. As it stands, it is an extremely rare, complete and functional, authentic R-4 (B-22, not a phony R-4 'clone' engine, of which there have been many) powered Studebaker. Swapping this engine into any other vehicle at this late date would be pointless.
    (with perhaps the exception of whatever Avanti Bill Burke may have used it in. Does anyone here own THAT Bill Burke Avanti? Is it sitting in 'need' of engine B-22?)
    Alternatively, the R-4 engine once extracted will end up in some wealthy collectors 'stash', a non-functional and useless rich boy's toy, or permanently gathering dust on an engine stand in some museum. The Studebaker National Museum in South Bend already has an original R-4, and has no need of another.
    Let whoever thinks they wants that engine bad enough, pony up the $$$$$ to buy the car, and the unique heritage and history that only goes with that Avanti.
    My opinion. If you cannot appreciate this vehicle, and do not want that, you are a clod that simply does not deserve the privilege of purchasing this vehicle nor its engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeMichael View Post
    Would you guys be advising the seller to put the R1 engine back in the car if the owner had installed a Granatelli built R3 crate motor instead of an R4?

    If Paxton had installed an R3 (OR an R4) NO!...because then it would be a 'factory' R3-4 Studebaker Avanti assuming either of those engines was under its hood when Studebaker sold the car to a private party..........................but privately installed, as this R4 was....YES (even if it were an R3 Mike!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SN-60 View Post
    As an aside,....the installation of this genuine R4 engine that (then owner) Dick Kamphefner installed into this '64 Avanti reminds me of the story about the genuine R3 engine that George Krem privately installed into his '64 Challenger!

    I wonder if George saved the original 'numbers matching' 259 his Challenger was built with?
    Bump-bump!

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    Anyone want to shoot me an estimated value for the R4 engine? Even a ballpark estimate would be much appreciated.

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    That's exactly why I said IF. I was harkening back to some of the prior discussions about some of the Granatelli cars that have been argued as being non-legitimate. I'm growing weary of the self immolation going on here in Studeland.
    sals54

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    If it helps a Granatelli installed R4 Avanti sold here a few years ago for around the $40/$45000 Aud.
    pb

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    To keep everyone happy, sell the car with the original R1 engine as a complete package only, priced accordingly; all, or nothing. That way, whoever buys it will get the best of both worlds; the original, matching number engine, and a nice Avanti with an authentic R4 under the hood.

    Craig

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    I agree with Craig. Just switching the engines back will not be cheap and who knows what the condition of the R1 engine might be.

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nels View Post
    I agree with Craig. Just switching the engines back will not be cheap and who knows what the condition of the R1 engine might be.
    exactly.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    Anyone here care to take a stab at the value of an R4 engine?

    Bob
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    Anyone here care to take a stab at the value of an R4 engine?

    Bob
    As a starting point I'd guess at least $22,500.00 but not likely as much as $40,000.00!

    Mark

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    [QUOTE=sweetolbob;1032339]Anyone here care to take a stab at the value of an R4 engine?


    About 2/3 as much as an R3! (in the same running condition)

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    [QUOTE=SN-60;1032405]
    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    Anyone here care to take a stab at the value of an R4 engine?


    About 2/3 as much as an R3! (in the same running condition)
    Ok, then let me suggest the knowledgeable forum WE!! give the OP the value of an R3 and let him do the math. After all, he did ask a reasonable question in post #17.
    , ,

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    [QUOTE=sweetolbob;1032410]
    Quote Originally Posted by SN-60 View Post

    Ok, then let me suggest the knowledgeable forum WE!! give the OP the value of an R3 and let him do the math. After all, he did ask a reasonable question in post #17.
    If we're speaking of a 'non-NOS' but well cared for and completely healthy Studebaker (Paxton) R3 engine, up to original 'specs' in all departments, complete with Paxton supercharger in good condition, and all other accessories to make the engine a 'drop in & go',...................

    I'd say anywhere between 25-30K.....however, it's such a rare 'piece' that a bidding war could ensue between two rich screwballs that both feel they 'MUST HAVE IT'!!

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    What this vehicle/engine is 'worth', and what it will actually bring are two entirely different matters.
    The 'worth' of any rare object whether it be art, artifact, or automobile is entirely dependent upon what some individual or organization is actually willing to lay down on the table. Which is dependent upon how badly they desire that particular item and how much their financial or life circumstances will permit them to offer.

    On this particular item, if on examination it proved to be as presented and 'turn key' ready, and IF I were in the market, personally I'd be plenty happy to offer 20k for the Avanti with uninstalled original R-1 engine, plus 40k for the R-4, for a total of $60k.
    I could certainly easily draw off this much equity from my fully paid for home for only a few hundred bucks a month for the satisfaction of what to me has been a dream these last 50+ years. The days of having this opportunity are only growing shorter.
    However, as under the circumstances of remaining a happily married man, this course of action would be extremely inadvisable as my wife of 47 years has other, far more practical ideas, plans and desires.
    My wordy way of saying that what is being offered here is 'worth' at -least- $60,000 to ME.
    How much it is worth to anyone else, or what they 'value' it at, or what they would be willing to pay is entirely up to them.
    I'll be disappointed if it doesn't bring a least 60k. And who knows, maybe down the road I'll be pleased to go 100k.
    So folks, what would it be worth to YOU to finally obtain that something that you have desired and dreamed of owning for 50 years?
    Last edited by Jessie J.; 01-09-2017 at 09:31 PM.

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    Jessie
    You make me appreciate my wife of nearly 60 years she never interfered with or criticized any one of my purchases.
    When I bought R5089 it cost more than we paid for our house.

    Robert Kapteyn

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    Lucky guy. Many are my acquaintances whom are no longer married to the wife of their youth due to making such purchases.

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    Its not clear here how old the presented article is, or how long this Avanti has been in storage, or what condition it is presently in. Recent and detailed close-up pictures certainly would be informative as to present condition and assist in establishing its value.

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    Jess, I saw the car at La Palma, this year. Decent shape. $20,000 car with an R1. The motor is another story. That R4 at the SNM was up for grabs in the past year or 2. If I remember right it was around $14,000 or $15,000 up to the end of the auction, then someone jumped in with the $40,000 bid. Then backed out or didn't have the money to pay for it, so it sits in the SNM. Bill Burke running it in 63 and being disappointed with it's performance. Pulling it out and giving it back to Joe G. It has 50 years of life used up on it. To me the engine would be worth $15,000 or so. You are looking at a $35,000 to $40,000 car.

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    Silver Hawk Member StudeDave57's Avatar
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    I can't seem to get the photo to post,
    so here's a link to the car/engine in question~

    https://flic.kr/p/P2jbsF

    maybe...?


    (use the arrows to see other photos of same)
    StudeDave '57
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    Silver Hawk Member 53k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Jess, I saw the car at La Palma, this year. Decent shape. $20,000 car with an R1. The motor is another story. That R4 at the SNM was up for grabs in the past year or 2. If I remember right it was around $14,000 or $15,000 up to the end of the auction, then someone jumped in with the $40,000 bid. Then backed out or didn't have the money to pay for it, so it sits in the SNM. Bill Burke running it in 63 and being disappointed with it's performance. Pulling it out and giving it back to Joe G. It has 50 years of life used up on it. To me the engine would be worth $15,000 or so. You are looking at a $35,000 to $40,000 car.
    Actually I had the R-4 engine on eBay in September 2009. If B78 was the engine you are talking about in the Bill Burke case, Studebaker/Paxton committed fraud as the engine was sold as new to the English buyer. His listing described it as new, inhibited, still in original packing crate.

    Paul Johnson, Wild and Wonderful West Virginia.
    '64 Daytona Wagonaire, '64 Avanti R-1, Museum R-4 engine, '72 Gravely Model 430 with Onan engine

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    No, Paul I was talking about B22. Although your case it felt like it was only a year or 2 ago. How time flies. I have had 2 B blocks in my time. B48 and B112. I sold B112 to Lional Stone back in 1980. In 81 we put it in Lional's Koean war COE, ton and a half weapons carrier that Bob K. wound up with. With what I sold it to him for plus rebuilding it Lional had less than $3,000 in the motor.
    Last edited by Alan; 01-10-2017 at 03:51 PM.

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    President Member StudeMichael's Avatar
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    Nice car! Love the interior. Is the gold off a bit from the factory color or was that just the lighting when the picture was taken?

    Quote Originally Posted by StudeDave57 View Post
    I can't seem to get the photo to post,
    so here's a link to the car/engine in question~

    https://flic.kr/p/P2jbsF

    maybe...?


    (use the arrows to see other photos of same)

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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeMichael View Post
    Nice car! Love the interior. Is the gold off a bit from the factory color or was that just the lighting when the picture was taken?
    Mike, as to the color, re-read the original article by the (then) owner.

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    I am familiar with this car a have seen it in recent years at the La Palma show. It has always been a very nice car. I competed against it in the mid eighties at the La Palma show in the modified class. What was always odd to me was that this car R5481 was converted from a R1 to a R4, the next serial number car R 5482, was converted by Jon Meyer from a R1 to a R3, along with a color change from Avanti white to Avanti Gray. My car R5487 was converted from a R1 to Chevy engine in the late 60s and changed color from turquoise to black. All three cars with very close serial numbers were modified and competed at the same show for several years.
    Bob Caser
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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeDave57 View Post
    I can't seem to get the photo to post,
    so here's a link to the car/engine in question~

    https://flic.kr/p/P2jbsF

    maybe...?


    (use the arrows to see other photos of same)

    Yes,

    you are right.....this is the car.....with the B-22 engine.

  40. #40
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    I wouldn't change the engine back to the original R1. The R4 was an available option in the 1964 Avanti (even though none left the factory so equipped). Although not numbers matching, that engine is correct in that car and it could be entered into an SDC or Avanti car show and would not receive deductions because it is an R4. For those who are anal about matching numbers, B22 would never be 'numbers matching' in *any* Studebaker because it was sold as a crate motor directly from Paxton to Bill Burke. The fact that it is a 4-speed and air conditioned (which could have been ordered on a 1964 R4 Avanti) makes it all the more desirable to keep together as a complete package.

    Scott Griggs
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