Pearl Harbor Day

[48skyliner]

The movie "Tora, Tora,Tora" was very historically accurate, based on what was known to the public at that time. None of the hokey CGI of more recent movies, they actually built replicas of the Zero, the dive bombers and torpedo bombers and flew them in the movie.

However there was a lot of deliberate misinformation from Washington, designed to make Admiral Kimmel and General Short scapegoats for the "surprise" attack. Books were written, investigations were done during and after the war to cover up the actions of high ranking personnel in Washington. If you are interested in learning the real history of this fiasco, I highly recommend the book "And I was There" by Admiral Edwin Layton, who was the chief of intelligence for the Pacific fleet from 1940 until the end of the war.

I have searched out the books which give the true history of the Pacific War, and in my opinion, there are four men who were most responsible for ending the war and saving many thousands of lives:

Navy Lt Joseph Rochefort, the brilliant chief code breaker at Pacific Fleet intelligence in Hawaii, given credit by Nimitz for the victory at Midway, which was by all accounts the turning point of the war.

Admiral Nimitz, Pacific fleet commander, replacing Kimmel and commanding throughout the war, responsible for the winning strategies.

General Curtis Lemay, commander of the B-29 bombing effort in 1944-45.

Robert Oppenheimer, whose accomplishments should need no explanation.

[Gunslinger]

It won't be too far in the future when all WWII vets are gone and what was oral history will pass into written history. Many believe that's why in the last ten to twenty years so many books have been written by and about our veterans who have finally opened up about what they experienced and what they know...they realized if they don't relate their experiences now it will never be known.

We, as a nation, also seem to be more concerned with current social or "pop culture" goings on rather than our national history and experiences and how we got to where we are. Without context, it means little with little understanding. As new information comes out...veterans opening up about their experiences...new sources of information being found or declassified...we're more able to know and understand what happened if we only are open to truths and facts as they become available and are willing to accept that...and discard revisionist versions based upon emotion and politics.

[WinM1895]

The turning point of the Pacific War was the Battle of Midway. The Japanese lost 4 carriers: Kaga, Akagi, Soryo, Hiryu and the cruiser Mogami. The 4 carriers were part of the Pearl Harbor strike force.

The US lost the carrier Yorktown and the destroyer Hammann.

The USS Oklahoma wasn't scrapped. The Pacific Bridge Company righted the ship in 1943, then it spent the rest of the war tied up to a dock. In 1947 while being towed to the west coast to be scrapped, the towline parted in a storm and it sank, roughly 900 NE of Oahu.

[53k]

Seven Pearl Harbor movies ranked from worst to best- http://www.screenjunkies.com/movies/...-worst-to-best
I was stationed at Pearl Harbor when In Harm's Way was filmed. Several of us met Paula Prentiss and some other movie people when we went to lunch at the Pearl City Tavern. Only Paula Prentiss was memorable.

[sweetolbob]

To add to Skips post, here is a summary from Yahoo News on the ships that were raised/repaired and the time frame involved.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/13-u-navy-ships-rose-200930115.html

Bob

[Skip Lackie]

The USS Oklahoma wasn't scrapped. The Pacific Bridge Company righted the ship in 1943, then it spent the rest of the war tied up to a dock. In 1947 while being towed to the west coast to be scrapped, the towline parted in a storm and it sank, roughly 900 NE of Oahu.

My mistake. I translated "total loss" into scrapped.

[jclary]

...The USS Oklahoma wasn't scrapped. The Pacific Bridge Company righted the ship in 1943, then it spent the rest of the war tied up to a dock. In 1947 while being towed to the west coast to be scrapped, the towline parted in a storm and it sank, roughly 900 NE of Oahu.

A disclaimer before typing my comment...I have about as much nautical knowledge as my pet goats...That said, I am curious as to what boat was commissioned to "tow" a battleship??? How big was the tow vehicle? I suspect, that If I was the Captain, and a big pacific storm began churning up the sea while I was attached to a huge unstable hulk, I might find a way to "part" the towline.

[WinM1895]

The battleship USS Iowa was towed from Suisun Bay CA to Los Angeles Harbor (San Pedro) where it's now a museum ship.

The former 24,000 ton ocean liner SS Constitution, while being towed to the west coast to be scrapped, sank 700 miles NE of Oahu, after the towline parted in a storm.

The USS Oklahoma was 27,000 tons, but most of the topside superstructure had been removed before she was righted.

btw: TCM ran Tora Tora Tora last night. I've seen it a gazillion times, but watched it again. I've been reading about the Pearl Harbor Attack for over 60 years.

[jnormanh]

btw: TCM ran Tora Tora Tora last night. I've seen it a gazillion times, but watched it again.

I watched it too. It's well done and, AFAIK, historically correct. At the time it came out, late '60s, it was a flop.

Yes, there were a few high level Japanese who understood that they were going to unleash a firestorm of war which they could not withstand, but they were overruled. American military backed by the enormous manufacturing capability of the USA rained unmitigated Hell on them...and the Germans too.

I visited the Arizona memorial a few years ago. Many of those also there that day had tears in their eyes. Me too.

Dad served in the Navy, uncle Bob in the Army, and uncle Roger in the AF. Bob didn't return. Those guys, who Tom Borkaw calls The Greatest Generation are nearly all gone now.

[WinM1895]

In 2010, we took a Hawaiian Cruise, round trip from Los Angeles. On board was Thomas Kimmel, grandson of Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, who was CINCPAC (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet) at the time of the Pearl Harbor Attack.

Thomas Kimmel, who was a retired FBI agent, gave a presentation of the attack while on the cruise, it was very interesting as I learned a few more things I was unaware of.

My dad was a USN supply officer during the war, my uncle served three years on the battleship USS Tennessee as a corpsman, my grandfather was a USAAF flight instructor.

btw: Jason Robards Jr., who played US Army commander General Short in the film Tora Tora Tora was a Pearl Harbor survivor, he was serving as a radio man on the cruiser USS Honolulu during the attack.

[Skip Lackie]

A disclaimer before typing my comment...I have about as much nautical knowledge as my pet goats...That said, I am curious as to what boat was commissioned to "tow" a battleship??? How big was the tow vehicle? I suspect, that If I was the Captain, and a big pacific storm began churning up the sea while I was attached to a huge unstable hulk, I might find a way to "part" the towline.

There are big, deep-sea tugs that are designed to tow things like big ships and oil platforms in the open ocean. They typically displace around 2500 tons, are 225-250 feet long, are have twin diesels producing around 10,000 hp. The biggest in the world have around 25,000 hp. It is a very specialized business, and only a few companies in places like the Netherlands and Singapore make the investment in equipment and trained personnel to do it right. The US Navy also always has a few fleet tugs. They are named after native American tribes.

[skyway]

I seem to remember that the USS Missouri's last trip to Pearl was in tow.

[53k]

In my Navy time in Hawaii I was most fortunate to get a closeup look at the Arizona and the Utah. I was on the staff of COMSERVPAC (Commander Service Force, Pacific) with additional duties on the staff of CINCPACFLT (Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet). As such I used to work with the Chief Bos'n (Boatswains Mate) who maintained and ran the Admiral's Barge (yacht provided by the Navy). We had a good relationship. When he found that my parents were going to visit us, he told me that the Admiral wouldn't be using his Barge for a while, so I should bring my parents down and get real a Pearl Harbor tour. So, along with my wife, we came to the pier where the Chief met us and welcomed us on board. He took us to the Arizona Memorial where we cruised all around the wreck of the Arizona. We could see things that the tourist boats didn't. The Chief continued by touring around Ford Island then gave us a close up look at the Utah. The boat tour was probably something over an hour, a never forgotten experience.

[hausdok]

There are big, deep-sea tugs that are designed to tow things like big ships and oil platforms in the open ocean. They typically displace around 2500 tons, are 225-250 feet long, are have twin diesels producing around 10,000 hp. The biggest in the world have around 25,000 hp. It is a very specialized business, and only a few companies in places like the Netherlands and Singapore make the investment in equipment and trained personnel to do it right. The US Navy also always has a few fleet tugs. They are named after native American tribes.

The one active-duty aircraft carrier that the Russians still have is so prone to breaking down that it has a seagoing tug that accompanies it wherever it goes. When it was making that passage from the Bering sea down through the Mediterranean on it's way to the middle east to provide air support for the Russkie's effort in Syria, it broke down at least once enroute and it's tug had to step in and help it along. It belches a really nasty sooty black smoke train from its stack and there were a few places that refused to allow them to go in for fuel along the way because they didn't want that huge polluter in their waters.

[GrumpyOne]

My biggest connection with WW II was..

1. Helping my mother flatten tin cans for the war effort. I was yet to turn five.

2. Gaining employment on Kwajalein in 1967 where I was certified as a SCUBA diver dove the Japanese wrecks that were abundant in the lagoon. During the spring of 1968 if found seven portholes that were still intact on the armed freighter Asakaze Maru that was sunk by U.S. carrier based aircraft in February of 1944. By the time of my discovery, most worthwhile artifacts were already gone but somehow these were somehow missed. My diving buddy decided to to divvy them up and get them removed quickly which was accomplished in five days. Now fast forward to Tuesday of this week where I traveled to the Museum of the Pacific War in Fredericksburg, TX to donate one of three that I had remaining.

It was a good feeling...