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Thread: R5 Avanti

  1. #41
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    Notice that the battery is mounted at the firewall in the Due Cento ("R5").

    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

  2. #42
    Silver Hawk Member JRoberts's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by wpsrea

    Just a quick question. Were any of these shown around the county to dealers? I believe it was in the fall of '62 or the spring of '63(a long time for my memory) that a "Bonneville" car was on display on a trailer at our local dealer. I think it might have been red.
    These "Bonneville" cars may have been trailered around to dealers. But the first Avanti I saw was at our local dealer (R&W Auto Sales, Fayetteville, NC) and it was shown in such a way that it could have easily been mistaken for car that actually competed at Bonneville. The records displayed, pictures of the Avanti on the salt, etc.. My dad had to explain to me that this was probably not the actual car that was raced at Bonneville, but one that was "sort of" like it. I learned recently from a former dealer in a small town south of us, that Studebaker actually had a few early Avantis that it shipped around to dealers for a short display period, then they were shipped off to other dealers. You know, drumming up business.

    Joe Roberts
    '61 R1 Champ
    '65 Cruiser
    Editor of "The Down Easterner"
    Eastern North Carolina Chapter

  3. #43
    Silver Hawk Member JRoberts's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by wpsrea

    Just a quick question. Were any of these shown around the county to dealers? I believe it was in the fall of '62 or the spring of '63(a long time for my memory) that a "Bonneville" car was on display on a trailer at our local dealer. I think it might have been red.
    These "Bonneville" cars may have been trailered around to dealers. But the first Avanti I saw was at our local dealer (R&W Auto Sales, Fayetteville, NC) and it was shown in such a way that it could have easily been mistaken for car that actually competed at Bonneville. The records displayed, pictures of the Avanti on the salt, etc.. My dad had to explain to me that this was probably not the actual car that was raced at Bonneville, but one that was "sort of" like it. I learned recently from a former dealer in a small town south of us, that Studebaker actually had a few early Avantis that it shipped around to dealers for a short display period, then they were shipped off to other dealers. You know, drumming up business.

    Joe Roberts
    '61 R1 Champ
    '65 Cruiser
    Editor of "The Down Easterner"
    Eastern North Carolina Chapter

  4. #44
    Silver Hawk Member Guido's Avatar
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    Joe,

    I seem to recall reading that Studebaker used the services of Trans International Airlines (purchased in 1962 from Kirk Kerkorian) to shuttle Avanti's around the country for their debut.

    Gary


    Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

    Studebaker horse drawn doctor’s buggy; Studebaker horse drawn “Izzer” buggy; 1946 M-16 fire truck; 1948 M-16 grain truck; 1949 2R17A fire truck; 1950 2R5 pickup; 1952 2R17A grain truck; 1952 Packard 200 4 door; 1955 E-38 grain truck; 1957 3E-40 flatbed; 1961 6E-28 grain truck; 1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck; 1962 7E-7 Champ pickup; 1962 GT Hawk 4 speed; 1963 8E-28 flatbed; 1964 Avanti R2 4 speed; 1964 Cruiser and various other "treasures" (including a 1959 IH B-120 4 wheel drive, a 1970 Dodge W-200 Power Wagon and numerous Oliver and Cockshutt tractors).

    Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

  5. #45
    Silver Hawk Member Guido's Avatar
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    Joe,

    I seem to recall reading that Studebaker used the services of Trans International Airlines (purchased in 1962 from Kirk Kerkorian) to shuttle Avanti's around the country for their debut.

    Gary


    Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

    Studebaker horse drawn doctor’s buggy; Studebaker horse drawn “Izzer” buggy; 1946 M-16 fire truck; 1948 M-16 grain truck; 1949 2R17A fire truck; 1950 2R5 pickup; 1952 2R17A grain truck; 1952 Packard 200 4 door; 1955 E-38 grain truck; 1957 3E-40 flatbed; 1961 6E-28 grain truck; 1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck; 1962 7E-7 Champ pickup; 1962 GT Hawk 4 speed; 1963 8E-28 flatbed; 1964 Avanti R2 4 speed; 1964 Cruiser and various other "treasures" (including a 1959 IH B-120 4 wheel drive, a 1970 Dodge W-200 Power Wagon and numerous Oliver and Cockshutt tractors).

    Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

  6. #46
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    Sounds very possible, Joe. I do remember the displays with the cars and I thought the cars had the appropriate lettering and numbering of a race car. I lived just north of Boston at the time and the dealer was very small.

  7. #47
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    Sounds very possible, Joe. I do remember the displays with the cars and I thought the cars had the appropriate lettering and numbering of a race car. I lived just north of Boston at the time and the dealer was very small.

  8. #48
    Silver Hawk Member JBOYLE's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by Guido

    Joe,

    I seem to recall reading that Studebaker used the services of Trans International Airlines (purchased in 1962 from Kirk Kerkorian) to shuttle Avanti's around the country for their debut.

    Gary
    I recently found a photo in one of my aircraft books of an ex-USAF Fairchild C-82 Packet with Avanti titles that was used to fly early Avantis around the country for dealer previews.
    The aircraft is not marked with any airline name.

    I've been meaning to write the author of the book and get permission to send the photo to the Avanti, the AOAI magazine.

    63 Avanti R1 2788
    1914 Stutz Bearcat
    (George Barris replica)

    Washington State

  9. #49
    Silver Hawk Member JBOYLE's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by Guido

    Joe,

    I seem to recall reading that Studebaker used the services of Trans International Airlines (purchased in 1962 from Kirk Kerkorian) to shuttle Avanti's around the country for their debut.

    Gary
    I recently found a photo in one of my aircraft books of an ex-USAF Fairchild C-82 Packet with Avanti titles that was used to fly early Avantis around the country for dealer previews.
    The aircraft is not marked with any airline name.

    I've been meaning to write the author of the book and get permission to send the photo to the Avanti, the AOAI magazine.

    63 Avanti R1 2788
    1914 Stutz Bearcat
    (George Barris replica)

    Washington State

  10. #50
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    Dick and Lois Bennett came to Calif. After the 68 Bonneville runs. I remember him saying that he tried to get to Bonnie to watch the cars but got married and was pulling a car trailer with a Rambler Wagon. I helped load the car and parts on the trailer. It was sold to them by Bill Burke. Joe Granatelli was pissed. He pulled Burke into his office and chewed his butt. The cars were never registered for the street, off highway use only and they were supposed to have the EX name plates removed from the frames and the cars destroyed. But Bill needed the cash to run the 229 car. The Ford Cammer engine was installed in 66. and Bill ran 175.669 with it. Ran B/Gas Coupe, 67 177.028 and 68 182.867
    Between 66 and 69 the engine and pieces dissapeared. Dick got the short block out of the 229 motor, 289 with a .040 over and the 224 crank. A set of R3 heads off the shelf and a few other parts. He was strutting around the shop saying I am Richard Bennett the third and I have never been so humiliated in my life. Joe wanted to strangle him. Crazy thing is he could have had the Ford Cammer engine too, they just wanted to get rid of him.

  11. #51
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    Dick and Lois Bennett came to Calif. After the 68 Bonneville runs. I remember him saying that he tried to get to Bonnie to watch the cars but got married and was pulling a car trailer with a Rambler Wagon. I helped load the car and parts on the trailer. It was sold to them by Bill Burke. Joe Granatelli was pissed. He pulled Burke into his office and chewed his butt. The cars were never registered for the street, off highway use only and they were supposed to have the EX name plates removed from the frames and the cars destroyed. But Bill needed the cash to run the 229 car. The Ford Cammer engine was installed in 66. and Bill ran 175.669 with it. Ran B/Gas Coupe, 67 177.028 and 68 182.867
    Between 66 and 69 the engine and pieces dissapeared. Dick got the short block out of the 229 motor, 289 with a .040 over and the 224 crank. A set of R3 heads off the shelf and a few other parts. He was strutting around the shop saying I am Richard Bennett the third and I have never been so humiliated in my life. Joe wanted to strangle him. Crazy thing is he could have had the Ford Cammer engine too, they just wanted to get rid of him.

  12. #52
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    Just for kicks, here's a 299 CI engine. The onwer stated that it was the 5th R3 built by the Granatellis, and the heads haven't been off since they put them on. Car was originally an R1, but that engine's been in there for 20 years or so now.



    Gotta love Halibrands.


    Matthew Burnette
    '59 Scotsman
    '63 Daytona
    Hazlehurst, GA


  13. #53
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    Just for kicks, here's a 299 CI engine. The onwer stated that it was the 5th R3 built by the Granatellis, and the heads haven't been off since they put them on. Car was originally an R1, but that engine's been in there for 20 years or so now.



    Gotta love Halibrands.


    Matthew Burnette
    '59 Scotsman
    '63 Daytona
    Hazlehurst, GA


  14. #54
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    The large mirror on the Due Cento was installed when the car was originally built. The Due Cento's origin was the original prototype Avanti built by the engineering department. If anyone has seen the car or taken pictures, you will notice that it does not have names or emblems, an unupholstered dash with a scribe where the glove box door goes and fake tail lights amoung other unique features, thus the large mirror.
    quote:Originally posted by 8E45E

    quote:Originally posted by JDP

    I was there, and the Avanti was not a the only "R5"

    b. The car shown was just a custom with dual blowers.
    I figured as much, but since I never saw that car in person, I witheld comment. It looked too 'tame' (i.e. no hood scoop) to be one of the factory produced Due Cento's compared to the original photos such as these ones from Hot Rod magazine. But why, oh why the huge rear-view mirror?? Not much was going to pull up behind and pass him at 200mph!![:0]





    Craig


  15. #55
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    quote:Originally posted by Alan

    Dick and Lois Bennett came to Calif. After the 68 Bonneville runs. I remember him saying that he tried to get to Bonnie to watch the cars but got married and was pulling a car trailer with a Rambler Wagon. I helped load the car and parts on the trailer. It was sold to them by Bill Burke. Joe Granatelli was pissed. He pulled Burke into his office and chewed his butt. The cars were never registered for the street, off highway use only and they were supposed to have the EX name plates removed from the frames and the cars destroyed. But Bill needed the cash to run the 229 car. The Ford Cammer engine was installed in 66. and Bill ran 175.669 with it. Ran B/Gas Coupe, 67 177.028 and 68 182.867
    Between 66 and 69 the engine and pieces dissapeared. Dick got the short block out of the 229 motor, 289 with a .040 over and the 224 crank. A set of R3 heads off the shelf and a few other parts. He was strutting around the shop saying I am Richard Bennett the third and I have never been so humiliated in my life. Joe wanted to strangle him. Crazy thing is he could have had the Ford Cammer engine too, they just wanted to get rid of him.
    Just to set the record straight:
    1. The car was not trailered, it was flat towed with a towbar.
    2. I did not get any parts off of the shelf, only picked up the car. All of the parts that I got from Bill Burke were picked up at Bonneville the previous year.
    3. I was never inside the shop, never met Joe Granatelli or had the pleasure to speak with him, never refer to myself as Richard Bennett the 3rd, except on legal documents and would not act that arrogant.
    4. I never made a statement about being humiliated, but stated to Bill Burke and freinds in the parking lot that I thought it was disgusting that they would put another engine in the Due Cento.
    5. If the Ford cammer was there, I didn't know about it. Bill told me that he borrowed the engine from Daryl Droke who ran a Mercury funny car called 'Top Cat' and was returning it to him after the '68 Bonneville runs.

  16. #56
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by r5duecento

    The large mirror on the Due Cento was installed when the car was originally built. The Due Cento's origin was the original prototype Avanti built by the engineering department. If anyone has seen the car or taken pictures, you will notice that it does not have names or emblems, an unupholstered dash with a scribe where the glove box door goes and fake tail lights amoung other unique features, thus the large mirror.
    Thanks for the explanation![^]

    Do you still own the car?

    Craig

  17. #57
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    Yes. I still own the Due Cento.

  18. #58
    President Member StudeMichael's Avatar
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    Do you have any recent pics of the car?

  19. #59
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    I think this has to be one of the best & most informative threads I have seen. I thought I knew about Avanti cars, but I guess I didn't. [B)]

    Doug
    Venice, Florida
    1950 Champion
    9G F1

  20. #60
    President Member StudeMichael's Avatar
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    This is the good stuff for sure! i was surprised to see a thread this old come back to life.

  21. #61
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by StudeMichael

    This is the good stuff for sure! i was surprised to see a thread this old come back to life.
    THANKS to Richard Bennett for thoroughly investigating previous posts here on the Forum before starting a brand new thread![^]

    Craig

  22. #62
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    I have attached some photos of the Due Cento sitting in a gas station, next door to Paxton Products on Olympic Blvd.
    These were taken in the summer of 1965.
    As all old race cars, it had little value at the time.

    The 1964 gold car in a previous post picture, had a R4 engine in it with air conditioning.This transplant was I believe done in the 70's.

    Bob Caser
    http://s833.photobucket.com/albums/z...s.jpg&newest=1

    mrbobinc

  23. #63
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    Bob, It brought back memories, those pics. They must have have been taken in the evening or weekend since there are no other cars in the employees parking lot. The side pic where you can see the fence is the top of the Santa Monica Freeway concrete wall, the freeway is about 30 ft. below. The pic. taken to the South East towards SMCC. That Shell gas station was a meeting place for a bunch of bikers with full dress Harleys. Rich Bennett called me about a week ago and we B.S.ed about the old times. Since I was a part time employee I did not see him leave with the car. I assumed he rented a trailer or a tow dolly at least. But Bill Burke gave him a tow bar to tow a car across country with no engine. Good thing the EX cars had positive caster King pins.

  24. #64
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    Alan, I had just moved to California, when I took those photos.
    I remember the Shell station as well. I was a potential customer for a R3, and visited Paxton as well as Andy's son Vince, he was doing engine swaps over on Wilshire Blvd out of one bay in a service station.
    Vince quoted me $2,500 to install a R3 engine in my Avanti. I thought it to be to much money and used the $2,500 dollars as a down payment for a 289 Cobra instead.

    mrbobinc

  25. #65
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    Thanks for the photo's Bob.
    Interesting to read the letter from Halibrand to Paxton about the cost of supplying wheels, Dated 11/10/63.
    pb

  26. #66
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    It was great to hear from you guys who saw the car when it was in California and I especially enjoyed the pictures in the parking lot. I am always in search of additional history, any photographs, information or the whereabouts of any parts that were used on the car. I am also in search of anyone who was involved with the car when it was run either as the Prototype R3 in 1962 or as the Due Cento in 1963. I am told that numerous parts were tried at Bonneville and during the runs many changes were made.

  27. #67
    Speedster Member HNCadet's Avatar
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    StudeMichael: EX-2143 is still around, I bought it some 15 months ago, sitting in a field outside of Colorado Springs, CO. Currently it has been loaned out to SilverHawkDan @ Racing Studebakers who is now prepping the car to be run at Bonneville this year. You can follow the thread here:

    http://racingstudebakers.com/stl-web...pic.php?t=1855

    Recently, Steve Burke discovered the original Purchase/Build sheet......it is 63R-1006! It was an early Avanti that became an Engineering car before being sold to Bill Burke Sr. in mid-1963. Richard Quinn and I went searching for this data a year ago and he narrowed it down to 2 cars, 1006 was one of them. Thankfully Steve Burke found several boxes of info on the car stored at his Dad's house. Dan was hoping to tow the car to the Petersen meet in March, depending on where he was with the Bonneville prep work. He's looking for some help from the community to get the car ready, so visit the site and see if you can help!

    The Kamphefner car had an R4 engine in it that Richard bought from a fellow who bought it from the Burke's. Richard has passed on, but his wife still drives and enjoys the car as much as she can!

    Oh, and the comment about loving Halibrands? I did too.......until I had to polish them for ~6hrs. prior to every show. Within days after the show they oxidize over and after 45 years this alloy of Magnesium is pretty brittle and not the best driving wheel out there. They do bring nice comments at the shows, but I'm pretty tired of the maintenance already.

  28. #68
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    quote:Originally posted by StudeMichael

    Do you have any recent pics of the car?
    Just some pictures of the car in bare fiberglass in the body shop undergoing restoration. Not very interesting.

  29. #69
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    Gary:
    the story and more photos of the Trans International Airlines that flew the Avantis around to dealers ran early last year, or the end of 2008 I believe, in Avanti Magazine.
    Lew


    quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

    quote:Originally posted by Guido

    Joe,

    I seem to recall reading that Studebaker used the services of Trans International Airlines (purchased in 1962 from Kirk Kerkorian) to shuttle Avanti's around the country for their debut.

    Gary
    I recently found a photo in one of my aircraft books of an ex-USAF Fairchild C-82 Packet with Avanti titles that was used to fly early Avantis around the country for dealer previews.
    The aircraft is not marked with any airline name.

    I've been meaning to write the author of the book and get permission to send the photo to the Avanti, the AOAI magazine.

    63 Avanti R1 2788
    1914 Stutz Bearcat
    (George Barris replica)

    Washington State
    Lew Schucart
    Editor, Avanti Magazine

  30. #70
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    quote:Originally posted by StudeMichael

    Do you have any recent pics of the car?
    Again, there was a recent story and photo of the Due Cento Avanti owned by Richard, also in a recent Avanti Magazine issue in the past year or so. I don't have back issues with me at this time, though.
    Lew

    Lew Schucart
    Editor, Avanti Magazine

  31. #71
    President Member StudeMichael's Avatar
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    Will the restored car have a cloned R5 engine with dual paxtons and a novi unit?

  32. #72
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    The Due Cento article in AOA Magazine is an article on Jim Lange's Avanti which more correctly should be referred to as 'Due Cento - The Next Generation' as Jim has named his car (see the lettering on the door of his car). Unfortunately, this has caused alot of confusion with the Granatelli Bonneville Avanti, the original 'Due Cento'. Jim certainly has accomplished remarkable things with his Avanti and Jim is a great guy. However, this car has nothing to do with the "Factory" run Bonneville cars. It is a production Avanti to which Jim has made all of the modifications himself, which certainly attests to his ability as a performance engine builder.

    Another item of confusion; 'Due Cento' does not mean 2 superchargers which has been written in many articles. It means "200" in Italian, the speed to which the Granatelli's were shooting for. There was only one R5 engine and there was alot more to it than two superchargers. Two superchargers on a Studebaker engine does not make an R5! The R5 engine on the Due Cento was a basic R3 engine with a Bendix Fuel Injection unit that sprayed the fuel into/through the dual superchargers and then into a custom built sheet metal intake manifold which fed into the intake ports of the heads. It ran a Gilmore pulley and belt system to eliminate belt slippage, a special grind camshaft (several different grinders made camshafts for it but nobody remembers which one was used), and a Shiefer magneto ignition. It did not run a dry sump system. The blowers ran the blower fluid through a reserviour and cooler in order to cool the fluid which was needed as they were producing about 20 lbs. of boost.

    Dick

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    quote:Originally posted by StudeMichael

    Will the restored car have a cloned R5 engine with dual paxtons and a novi unit?
    No it will not, as the R5 engine with the bendix unit could only be run at full throttle. It will initially have the original R3 installed which it ran in 1962 when it was the prototype R3 Avanti that set the 29 Land Speed Records as it had in the film "Bonneville Record Breaker" as this is a streetable engine. Later, I will try to put as much R5 induction, etc. on the car as possible if it can be made driveable.[8D]

  34. #74
    President Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Here's a December 1963 article on Studebaker's run at the Salt Flats, including pics and information on the R5, plus other cars and even Paula Murphy and her cross country drive in an Avanti. How accurate the information is I don't know. Since it's the December '63 issue, it was likely on the news stands at least a month or two before that...before Studebaker announced the shut down of US car production.

    Since Car Life doesn't exist anymore, I guess I'm not violating any copyrights reproducing the article here...at least I hope I'm not.









    Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

  35. #75
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    quote:Originally posted by Gunslinger

    Here's a December 1963 article on Studebaker's run at the Salt Flats, including pics and information on the R5, plus other cars and even Paula Murphy and her cross country drive in an Avanti. How accurate the information is I don't know. Since it's the December '63 issue, it was likely on the news stands at least a month or two before that...before Studebaker announced the shut down of US car production.

    Since Car Life doesn't exist anymore, I guess I'm not violating any copyrights reproducing the article here...at least I hope I'm not.
    [img]

    http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii281/Boris_Badenov/cars/misc%20car%20pics/pg1.jpg[/img]








    Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.
    The article is accurate as far as the Due Cento is concerned. However, the pictures are misleading. In the four picture segment, the two pictures to the left (interior shots) are of the number 8 car and not the Due Cento. This is typical with magazines. They take a bunch of pictures, take them back to the office and don't remember which is which. This was a very good article and Car Life did several on the Bonneville Avantis. I would love to be able to find the original pictures Car Life took, especially the 3/4 shot with the chute out. Does anyone know any contact information with Car Life since they are no longer producing that magazine?

    Dick

  36. #76
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    quote:Originally posted by r5duecento
    I would love to be able to find the original pictures Car Life took, especially the 3/4 shot with the chute out. Does anyone know any contact information with Car Life since they are no longer producing that magazine?
    I'm not sure who ended up with Car Life's collection. I sure hope you picked up the December, 2009 Hemmings <s>Classic Car</s> magazine. There are some excellent color photos in there from Andy Granatelli's private collection.

    OOPS!! Me Bad!! Its Hemmings Muscle Machines!

    http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/..._feature9.html

    Craig<s></s>

  37. #77
    President Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    quote:
    The article is accurate as far as the Due Cento is concerned. However, the pictures are misleading. In the four picture segment, the two pictures to the left (interior shots) are of the number 8 car and not the Due Cento. This is typical with magazines. They take a bunch of pictures, take them back to the office and don't remember which is which. This was a very good article and Car Life did several on the Bonneville Avantis. I would love to be able to find the original pictures Car Life took, especially the 3/4 shot with the chute out. Does anyone know any contact information with Car Life since they are no longer producing that magazine?

    Dick


    The #8 car is less than ten miles from me...here in a shop having its engine rebuilt. It's a genuine R3 engine but not the engine it had installed at Bonneville. It has a bit over 40k miles showing on the odometer, the roll cage is still in place, has a set of Hailbrand wheels on it and is in very good overall condition outside of some peeled off paint on one rear quarter panel.


    Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

  38. #78
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Whittlesea, Victoria, Australia.
    Posts
    105
    Alan I wonder if you can shed some light on the "Bonneville" King Pins? I have a set and understand that the lower knuckle sets the stub axle 2" higher effectively lowering the car but it appears that heavier coils were used to maintain the standard kerb height,negating the lowering affect but increasing the suspension travel. Furthermore I believe that the upper inner control arm was set down into the shock tower by about an inch.Can you tell me what they were trying to achieve as to me these changes would be suited to a circuit racer rather than salt flats.Also I have set them up in my 62 GT without coil spring and found it difficult to bolt up with a definite tendency to be in a positive caster state (certainly good for the salt)I do not possess the hubs but I see that larger wheel bearings are required. Any advice or information would be appreciated.


    1958 Golden Hawk
    1962 GT Hawk
    1963 Avanti R2
    1963 Avanti Salt Racer

  39. #79
    Silver Hawk Member barnlark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northeastern Ohio
    Posts
    5,154
    Originally posted by r5duecento
    The Due Cento's origin was the original prototype Avanti built by the engineering department.

    Richard, do you have an EX numbered serial plate on your Due Cento?

  40. #80
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, California
    Posts
    566
    The suspension modifications were not for Bonneville. They were intended for the R3 cars to improve the suspension geometry and get more camber gain. This includes the 1" drop in the location for the upper arm. So do you have the kingpin, spindle and knucle? How did you come by them?

    David L

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