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Thread: Installing FI TECH EFI on a 289..... UPDATE: FIRST DRIVE VIDEO....need driveshaft

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    In the video, looks like you are gonna need some time to get used to, "armstrong" PS. But Lester Schmidt (now deceased) drove his armstrong equipped TRANSTAR for decades, into his 80s. So I am sure you will do just fine with yours too.

    That Stude V8 sounds raring to go. I predict you'll be especially thankful for the EFI come summer, when it won't know what, "vapor lock" is.

    Definitely do not scrimp on a proper drive shaft though. If its an OEM Stude truck drive shaft, you may be able to locate one. If not, you can surely have one made, but it ain't gonna be cheap!

    Good luck, and keep us posted please.
    I think its going to be difficult to find the proper lenght OEM driveshaft, I tried looking for one before I install this one cause I was confident that it wasnt going to work. When I was checking it out I noticed that the splines are out of alignment by 3/32"

    I have the orginal (to long) driveshaft out of the truck, come monday I am going to call around and see if I can find anybody that does them. Maybe shorten the stock I have or worst case get a brand new one made
    1960 Champ 1/2 Ton powered by 289/T98

  2. #82
    President Member Kurt's Avatar
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    When I converted my Champ to overdrive I had to change the driveshaft. My truck, 1961, had a shaft that the tube was larger in the middle than on the ends. The shop I took it to re used my ends and made new tube the proper length. It cost me around $250 with new u joints.
    1962 Champ

    51 Commander 4 door

  3. #83
    Speedster Member ndynis's Avatar
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    Congratulations!! Get that drive shaft fixed and you have a daily driver. Thanks for posting the entire process from start to finish. I have been toying with EFI for over a year now so having your experience with this new alternative was extra interesting to me.
    Good roads to you in 2016!
    Nick

  4. #84
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    If your truck has an OEM tranny, it likely has a fixed yoke. Since the rear end also has a fixed yoke, the drive shaft must have a floating yoke. If your truck tranny has a floating yoke, a used fixed yoke drive shaft is probably available, possibly from a brand 'X' vehicle, but may need to be shortened.

    If your drive shaft, "matches" your tranny, per yoke design, it should be cheapest to have it shortened by a competent shop. If it does not match, you are at square one, and need a complete drive shaft that does match, per yoke design. Not cheap! For the T85 in the 62GT, I had a floating yoke drive shaft made about 10 years ago, for about $400. Before that, I'd used a Stude truck drive shaft for many years, but the floating area wore out.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    If your truck has an OEM tranny, it likely has a fixed yoke. Since the rear end also has a fixed yoke, the drive shaft must have a floating yoke. If your truck tranny has a floating yoke, a used fixed yoke drive shaft is probably available, possibly from a brand 'X' vehicle, but may need to be shortened.

    If your drive shaft, "matches" your tranny, per yoke design, it should be cheapest to have it shortened by a competent shop. If it does not match, you are at square one, and need a complete drive shaft that does match, per yoke design. Not cheap! For the T85 in the 62GT, I had a floating yoke drive shaft made about 10 years ago, for about $400. Before that, I'd used a Stude truck drive shaft for many years, but the floating area wore out.
    its a floating yoke on the trans

    IMG_4945.JPG

    Problem I am finding now is that there is not anyone local that wants to do the work
    1960 Champ 1/2 Ton powered by 289/T98

  6. #86
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    Check big rig truck service places - they're always making driveshafts. I use a big one near me. To shorten, it's only $85-125 depending, but always includes new U-joints. For making new, they're $185-225 with all new pieces.
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    President Member 5brown1's Avatar
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    x2 on the truck service places. They modified my 2 piece for me. They were also able to make the u-bolts for the replacement rear end.

  8. #88
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by what huh View Post
    its a floating yoke on the trans

    IMG_4945.JPG

    Problem I am finding now is that there is not anyone local that wants to do the work
    Unless I am mistaken, that's a fixed yoke tranny, with a floating yoke drive shaft, as expected for your truck. If it is too long, any drive shaft shop should be able to shorten it. Looking at your pic, it does not appear too long, since about 1/2" of the yoke splines are visible. When it is going down the road, generally, the drive shaft will lengthen under load or power, except when going over bumps.

    Question: If it is the OEM drive shaft, how did it get to be too long? Why do you think it is too long?

  9. #89
    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    It is a Stock Driveshaft and floating Yoke that connects to a Fixed Flange Transmission, used only in SHORT Bed Stude. Trucks.

    Unless the Rear Axle has been changed or the Engine moved back from the Factory Position, that shaft should be fine.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeRich View Post
    It is a Stock Driveshaft and floating Yoke that connects to a Fixed Flange Transmission, used only in SHORT Bed Stude. Trucks.

    Unless the Rear Axle has been changed or the Engine moved back from the Factory Position, that shaft should be fine.
    Thanks for clarifying StudeRich.

    Nothing has been changed from stock between the trans and rear axle. The pictured driveshaft is a "homejob" shortened driveshaft that came with the transmission. The seller being nice said that he would sweeten the deal by throwing in a proper length driveshaft for free.... It's a deal then, I said.

    Along with my comment that had my first drive video in it, I mention that I didn't think my driveshaft (referring to the current one installed) was going to work even tho it fits fine because it is out of true by 3/32". I feel that the test drive showed that to me... Bounced a lot and I didn't feel anything coming from the steering or the brake pedal or the motor bucking,... Although the motor did backfire from what I believe to be very old gas. Don't worry I have since replaced it

    I have another driveshaft that came out of this truck when it had its 6 cyl flathead and 3 speed,... Stock used but unmolested from Studebaker. This is the one I would like to get shortened properly

    Thanks for tip on big rig truck shop!
    Last edited by what huh; 01-11-2016 at 08:38 AM.

  11. #91
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    if it is 3/32" out of true as measured at the middle of the shaft, a competent driveline shop should be able to tackle that without a problem. If you measured this distance at one end of the driveshaft that may be a different story. My drive shaft was about 1/8" out of true at it's mid-point and the shop I used made it true and balanced while I waited at the parts counter. Took them maybe all of 15 minutes, and I believe the guy said they trued it by heating and cooling. good luck with yours. Junior


    54 Champ C5 Hamilton car.

  12. #92
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    Without using professional equipment I measured the splined end to be out of alignment.

    I marked the driveshaft with a sharpie every 45 degrees. Then placed a straight edge on the drive shaft and measured the distance between the the straight edge and the splines.

    Side note: when I brought the driveshaft home in the first place I noticed the welds around the drive shaft didn't look as good as you would expect "factory" to look, also comparing the weld seem to the know factory weld seem on my other shaft showed that the driveshaft currently in the truck had already been shortened. That when I did the test I mentioned above. Also looks like snout was cut off with a whiz wheel to make it a little shorter, as if the first measurement that was taken wasn't good enough. I'll post a picture when I take it out to show what I mean

    Junior ... It's funny that you mentioned heating the shaft, a shop I just called talk about that also.

    There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and I thank you all for sharing and helping me along the way

  13. #93
    President Member evilhawk's Avatar
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    Verry cool man! How is the performance? I am planning to go EFI with my 83 Mustang. I would like to go EFI on my Hawk as well, but I think the kit is worth more than the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evilhawk View Post
    Verry cool man! How is the performance? I am planning to go EFI with my 83 Mustang. I would like to go EFI on my Hawk as well, but I think the kit is worth more than the car.
    I haven't really given her the beans yet... Once I have the kinks worked out I will report back in on the performance side of things. Also the video that I posted was with crappy gas... Once I get the driveshaft sorted out I will go for another test drive with fresh gas and hopefully nothing else will show its self

    Thus far I recommend going EFI. Personally I feel it will make which ever vehicle that you put it on more driver friendly, allowing to sit back relax and enjoy your drive

  15. #95
    President Member 345 DeSoto's Avatar
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    What sort of mufflers do you have on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 345 DeSoto View Post
    What sort of mufflers do you have on it?
    I have Don Simmons 2" exhaust with med tone mufflers... No tail pipe as of yet. Going to call him up and see if he has or can make tail pipes.
    1960 Champ 1/2 Ton powered by 289/T98

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
    When I converted my Champ to overdrive I had to change the driveshaft. My truck, 1961, had a shaft that the tube was larger in the middle than on the ends. The shop I took it to re used my ends and made new tube the proper length. It cost me around $250 with new u joints.
    Dropped the driveshaft off at the shop last night, I had the same experience at Kurt. Because of the bell taper at either end, the machinist said that it would be easier and just as cost effective to use my ends and make a new driveshaft.
    Last edited by what huh; 01-16-2016 at 12:44 PM.
    1960 Champ 1/2 Ton powered by 289/T98

  18. #98
    President Member Kurt's Avatar
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    Yep. They wouldn't shorten the bell driveshaft. They made a whole new shaft and balanced it also. It works great! Good luck on yours.
    1962 Champ

    51 Commander 4 door

  19. #99
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    I've been following this thread due to my wanting to go efi also. FItech is about 15 miles from me here which makes it handy too in case I run into something I can either go there & show them or even have it towed there.
    59 Lark wagon, now V-8, H.D. auto!
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    63 G.T. Hawk R-2,4 speed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Webb View Post
    I've been following this thread due to my wanting to go efi also. FItech is about 15 miles from me here which makes it handy too in case I run into something I can either go there & show them or even have it towed there.
    I highly recommend it... Just for giggles I started up my truck this morning... 15 degrees outside.... Turned over twice and started right up, idled at 1200 for a few mins and then dropped to my set idle speed.

    Awesome that you live so close to fi tech, would be nice for trouble shooting if wanted them to do the work
    1960 Champ 1/2 Ton powered by 289/T98

  21. #101
    President Member evilhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by what huh View Post

    Anybody interested in a 1403 Carb? Installed but not used
    Im interested in the carb if you still have it.

  22. #102
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    Little update 3.5.2016

    I got a working drive shaft in the truck finally and it works great. Speeds up to 60 and no shaking, that put a big grin on my face.
    On a personally note, I have to put the truck to bed for a 4-6 weeks.....Yesterday I broke my right foot, BAD. I was building a aquaculture conveyor for my boat and dropped it OUCH!!!!
    I was going to drive it to York but I cant now.

    Quote Originally Posted by evilhawk View Post
    Im interested in the carb if you still have it.
    I PMed you back, sorry for the delay
    1960 Champ 1/2 Ton powered by 289/T98

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    Hey "What huh" great post and video. I've been thinking of doing what you did. But was not sure of the system to use. I also looked at the Hamilton system. I noticed that system controls their modified distributor. Where the FItech does not control Dave T's Mallory distributor. (Not sure this is an issue). I too have extensive modifications to my 1964 hawk. Turner dual brake system for drums. Dave T's distributor, Electric fuel pump. Completely rebuilt front end from Stude Int. Edelbrock 1403. Some of these mods were to get rid of vapor lock. I even tried blocking off the crossover ports. This actually worked for awhile but it eventually came back. I've never had any of those scary engine cutouts on the highway (Mentioned in some posts). But hot restarts are a problem. So your system is the next step.

    Hopefully you can answer a few questions before I buy:

    I was hoping fitech was made in the USA. But sadly found out it is made in China. How is the build quality?

    Did you have a vapor lock issue? Did this system solve it?

    Is it an issue that the Fitech system does not control the Mallory distributor? I too am using Dave T's Mallory Unilite Distributor. Fitech informed me only a distributor with a magnetic reluctor (pertronix?) will work. Mallory uses light

    Did you use stock timing?

    Thanks for you post and video, I was impressed! It probably sold me on this system. Oh, by the way, I remember that excitement when I finished rebuilding my Front End. What a difference it made. I was doing the Irish Jig, just like you were. LOL

    Thanks Warren
    1964 Gran turismo Hawk
    1954 Packard Pacific

  24. #104
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    Hey what huh -

    What's the latest on your FiTech installation ?

    Have you driven it much, got the bugs worked out of everything...etc., etc.?

    A coupla friends are considering this kit...along with myself. I've narrowed it to the Holley or the FiTech kit.

    Mike

  25. #105
    Speedster Member ndynis's Avatar
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    Like Mike, I would be interested in your experience since the install and with some miles behind you.
    Thanks!
    Nick

  26. #106
    President Member Corley's Avatar
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    I installed the FITech fuel injection on an ElCamino, and it only took about 3 hours to complete, EXCEPT for the fuel return line. (I did not use FITech's fuel command center, just used an external fuel pump, so I needed the return line. I figured that since virtually all the newer cars do it that way, I should probably do it too.) They system is super simple to install and setup. They give you a little dash screen deally, that allows you to enter all your engine parameters, and get it in the ball park as to tuning, before you ever fire it for the first time. Really simple stuff, like CI, Cam severity, etc. Then, as you drive, it further tunes itself. There are only 4 wires that you must connect on the cheapy 400HP version that does not handle ignition timing, and two sensors to install. Coolant, and OX2. (Two additional wires are optional, fan control and A/C input for upping idle speed.) One wire to coolant sensor, one to ox2 sensor, one to ignition source, one to battery, and one to pick up tach signal. That's it. This system comes with a wide band OX2 sensor, and a clamp on bung for it, so no need to weld anything.

    On my Elcamino, it started right up and ran really good from the start, except for one gotcha. When I would come to a stop light and idle for over about a minute, it would die. After some head scratching, I discovered that the electric fuel pump would cavitate from lack of fuel flow cooling, and getting hot. The solution, once I figured that out was really simple, there is a parameter for the fuel pump pulse width, and I just set that lower, so the fuel pump would run slower. It still generated plenty of pressure, and no longer cavitates. FITech support was no help in solving that, and they really should have known the solution, as I suspect it is a well known problem.

    I have had one other issue since installing it about a year ago, that being, once in a long while when starting it, it simply will not fire. The solution is to unplug the hand held tuning device, (which is also used as a monitoring device or EFI dash while driving), then re-plug it, and then it fires right up. It is very interesting to watch things on this "efi dash", and you can monitor AF ratio, target and actual, rpm, coolant temp, voltage, and you name it, while driving.

    Overall, for $800.00 at Summit, this is a real bargain if you want your rig to run right without fiddling with old carbs, jetting and so forth. If you go for a fuel pump inside the tank, as all modern iron uses, vapor lock is a thing of the past. Even with the external pump, I have not experienced any vapor lock on the hottest days.

    Earlier, I installed GMs TBI fuel injection (circa 1985) on my 1976 GMC motorhome's Olds 455 (Pre fuel injection), which came with a quadrajet carb. Making up the harness, installing all the sensors and parts, tuning, etc., took eons of time. It has loads of wires running all over. (On that one I installed the fuel pumps inside the tanks, which was a several day job.) I'm still working on some tuning issues with it, even though I am using the EBL (Embeded Lockers from Dynamic EFI) ECU modification, which allows some degree of tuning as you drive, then reloading the .bin into the ECU. That is a good system, and I implemented spark control, which give it a bit more power, but quite "fiddly" compared to the FITech system, which is super simple, with almost everything inside the throttle body.

    In both cases, I can't say that fuel mileage has increased or decreased, it's about the same. Both start and run better, and the GMC, due to the timing control, has a bit more power. (The ElCamino has a built 383, and doesn't hook up with the pavement anyway, so power is not an issue, and I'm too old to care.)

    Thought you might like some hands on experience and feedback.
    Corley

  27. #107
    President Member r1lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corley View Post
    Thought you might like some hands on experience and feedback.
    Great info Corley, thanks! And good to see you still hang out here!!
    Paul
    Winston-Salem, NC
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  28. #108
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    these FI systems are the way to GO. simplest way to get FI on an older car!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ndynis View Post
    Great Thread!
    I have been sitting on the fence about trying this on my Wagonaire. I'm not real smart when it comes to the computers and engines. There weren't any in 1964 the last time I was active doing my own engine work. The idea that this setup "tunes" itself rather than needing a laptop and the smarts to do it manually made me very interested. I like the Hamilton because of the good experience others on this forum have had with it but the ignition setup with the laptop makes me uneasy about making the leap.
    Will this unit work with Mr. T's distributor?

    Russ Shop Foreman \"Rusty Nut Garage\"
    53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
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    60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

  29. #109
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    Thanks for your experience Corley.

    Mike

  30. #110
    Speedster Member ndynis's Avatar
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    What Mike said

  31. #111
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Corley,
    Thanks for the info. I'd been hoping someone would eventually give us actual driver feedback on the newer, self-tuning EFI systems. Many of them, in pushing their products as easy to install, advertise a return line is not necessary. But that goes against the principle of heat transfer (to the tank, via the return line), which is how EFI avoids vapor lock.

    In fabricating your own GM system in the mid 1980s, you were one of the pioneers. I understand it all began with 1970s vintage motorhomes; about that time, Howell came out with a pre-fabbed system for novices. It was basically as you describe yours; Howell simply compiled all the parts, made a generic wiring harness, and included guesstimated CHIPs for given motor sizes. They always recommended in-tank pump, and return line. Eventually, other companies began to compete with Howell.

    I have installed EFI on two GT Hawks, with about 20,000 miles on each of them now. Both have in-tank pumps, and return lines. I used a system designed by Bill Hamilton. Bill was career Navy, and an electronics guru. He followed Howell with GM components, but with more technical sophistication: his kit looks brand new; includes spark control (must send him your distributor for conversion), includes manifold adapter, etc.

    Bill's initial CHIP is a guesstimate, as was Howells. But he later provides a custom CHIP. To customize a CHIP, the user must install WinALDL on a laptop, then drive around about an hour to capture, "wide average" data; attach the data to an email, and send it to Bill. He then customizes a CHIP. With the second system I installed, the initial CHIP was close enough that I never got round to having him customize one. However, if I drive that car for a week, then get into the other GT, it is obvious the CHIP needs tweaking. A problem: my computer lost WinALDL when it auto-converted to Windows 10 overnight. So I may get round to a custom CHIP someday, when/if I ever get my computer fixed.

    As you say, the older kits are a bit more, "fiddly". To me, the best part about the GM component system is, if parts are ever needed, they are readily available at any FLAPS.

    Thanks Again
    Last edited by JoeHall; 05-03-2017 at 09:46 AM.

  32. #112
    President Member Corley's Avatar
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    Joe,

    Check out Dynamic EFI's EBL conversion for your GM ECU. It replaces the prom with flash memory, and provides enough flash for 8 separate bins. (For those not familure with the terms, a bin is a file that contains all the tables and parameters that the ECU [computer] uses to provide the correct air/fuel mixture at all operating speeds and loads.) EBL allows you to have 8 of those loaded into the ECU at the same time, and select which one you'd like to use. In addition, EBL provides PC program that interacts with the ECU, and provides a (sort of) self tuning function, but it is partially manual. It is not too late to have your ECU converted, so you can do your own tuning, with no prom burning. It uses all standard GM TBI parts. If you have not yet implemented EST, (electronic spark timing control), you might consider doing so, as this is where you can really improve engine performance. (Power)

    With this setup, you put it into something called “VE learn“ mode, drive it around, allowing it to make corrections to provide the best A/For mixture under all driving conditions, then you save the corrected tables, and load them into the next flash location. Select that flash location as the active one, and you just self tuned. (Sort of.) Once you've done it once or twice, it's fairly trivial to do, and takes very little time.

    The conversion costs about $250 if I remember correctly, and is well worth it if you want to go with GM's TBI system. All other parts of the system will then be available at your local parts store, in case of a failure, but with this system you can limp home without most of the sensors even working.

    PS This and a trip to the men's mall has to be the cheapest/best conversion to fuel injection available. It just involves a lot of fiddling and screwing around.
    Corley

  33. #113
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corley View Post
    Joe,

    Check out Dynamic EFI's EBL conversion for your GM ECU. It replaces the prom with flash memory, and provides enough flash for 8 separate bins. (For those not familure with the terms, a bin is a file that contains all the tables and parameters that the ECU [computer] uses to provide the correct air/fuel mixture at all operating speeds and loads.) EBL allows you to have 8 of those loaded into the ECU at the same time, and select which one you'd like to use. In addition, EBL provides PC program that interacts with the ECU, and provides a (sort of) self tuning function, but it is partially manual. It is not too late to have your ECU converted, so you can do your own tuning, with no prom burning. It uses all standard GM TBI parts. If you have not yet implemented EST, (electronic spark timing control), you might consider doing so, as this is where you can really improve engine performance. (Power)

    With this setup, you put it into something called “VE learn“ mode, drive it around, allowing it to make corrections to provide the best A/For mixture under all driving conditions, then you save the corrected tables, and load them into the next flash location. Select that flash location as the active one, and you just self tuned. (Sort of.) Once you've done it once or twice, it's fairly trivial to do, and takes very little time.

    The conversion costs about $250 if I remember correctly, and is well worth it if you want to go with GM's TBI system. All other parts of the system will then be available at your local parts store, in case of a failure, but with this system you can limp home without most of the sensors even working.

    PS This and a trip to the men's mall has to be the cheapest/best conversion to fuel injection available. It just involves a lot of fiddling and screwing around.
    Corey,
    I am gonna refer Bill Hamilton to this post of yours, to get his input.
    Thanks Much,
    Joe H

  34. #114
    President Member Corley's Avatar
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    Joe,

    Good idea. Keep in mind though, that Hamilton and Dynamic are competitors, at least to some degree, so you may get a somewhat biased opinion. Several of the GMC motorhome group used to install the Hamilton kits, until the Dynamic ECU modification came along, then they pretty much switched to that because it CAN BE cheaper than the Hamilton kit, and allows much easier/cheaper tuning, and is a great DYI project for techy guys. Plus, they have a really good support forum on the GMC Motorhome web site. Actually at this time, most of the GMC MH techy guys have already done the conversion to EFI, and at this time, the non-techy guys are moving to the FITech self tuning setup, as it requires hardly any technical knowledge, and at $800.00 can be a really cost effective solution to VL. (GMC Motorhomes have a propensity to vapor lock with todays fuel, because they put so much heat under the coach, which heats the fuel in the tanks, leaving that group of vintage vehicle restorers needing a solution, and EFI pretty much solves that problem.)

    Everyone,

    Here is what I like about EFI. Because the engine is running at more ideal mixtures all the time, there is very little wear to cylinders and rings, since the oil is not being washed off the cylinder walls all the time (particularly with a cold start and choke). The oil stays cleaner, which helps everything else wear less, and once you are familiar with the systems, they are really easy to trouble shoot if any issues arise. (Mostly, they are trouble free though, with no need to trouble shoot anything, they just work.) With an in tank fuel pump, vapor lock is a thing of the past. When timing control is implemented, you can get a few more ponies out of the engine, and the engine won't wear out nearly as quickly. (You CAN implement "lean cruise", and "DCFO" if you choose, which could improve mileage a tad bit...)

    Don't get confused though, and install it thinking you will get a lot better mileage, a decently tuned carb can be almost as efficient in that department... AND, you will spend some time messing with the system, if you are so inclined, to some this is a disadvantage, to me it is a) a learning exercise, and b) preparing me for fixing any failures. To each his own.
    The GM TBI system is very fixable, and can limp home with most failures. With the FITech self tuning system, (and other self tuning systems), you should hope it never fails, because there is almost nothing you can fix with it. It is all contained within the throttle body itself. unique parts, and, you won't find any of those in every podunk parts place.

    If you are interested in studying up on EFI, a good place to start is the '80 EFI manual that GM published for trucks and vans. sorry, the book is out in the shop. Here is link to a site that also talks about the TBI components.

    JMHO
    Corley

  35. #115
    Champion Member Bill USN-1's Avatar
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    Corley, Joe,
    Just my quick input on the Dynamic EFI mod.
    It's a great mod for those that feel they have to be in control of everything.
    It's the same as a guy that want's to install an AFR gauge in the dash just to make sure the computer is properly controlling it.
    For 99% or the people out there it is not needed or wanted.
    They want to upgrade their vehicle, get in and drive. just like every other car in the driveway. Do you play with your Buick or Ford or Chevy?

    Bob Raucher is the one who created the Dynamic system. It is on the same line as Mega Squirt.
    It allows someone to tweak every parameter of their system. More useful for those with hotrods and engines with power adders.
    A stock engine doesn't really require it.
    The down side to the mod is you no longer have a factory available part. The ecm is now modified and if it fails on the road, you are stuck, just like all those new China made systems.
    If the ECM/computer fails, you are sitting in a Hotel waiting for a replacement to be shipped in.

    The factory GM system has auto correction and memory so it learns as you drive.
    But the baseline tune needs to be within about 15%.
    Joe's conversion was one of the early Stude conversions so I discussed this with him. So he already did the work for you.
    SINCE MOST LIKE TO DRIVE THER CLASSICS ANYWAY, TAKING A DRIVE AND LOGGING THE DATA WHILE YOU DRIVE IS NOT A BIG DEAL.
    sorry for caps! big fingers.
    For those that only own Apple products, or can't figure out the latest win8 or 10, I do have loaner laptops I send out.

    Keep in mind that GM used this system on millions of engines.
    The went all over the country and never needed tuning mods.
    They auto adjusted as they drove.

    I drive my vehicles from sea level to 14k ft in Colorado and do nothing but enjoy the scenery.

    The new Chinese system are cheap, that's great , but , timing control does make a huge difference in engine operation and efficiency. So if you go with the cheap version to save money, set that money aside for later and hope you don't need it.
    If you step up to the one that allows timing control and convert the distributor to work with it, then buy the "optional" fuel system, the price really isn't any different.
    Then your back to system reliability, parts availability, and drivability. Customer service, ease of repair by a local or on the road repair shops should also be factored in. Pull into a shop and pop the hood with a Chinese system and ask them to fix it vs Pull in and tell them you have a 1994 GM 1500.

    For those that would like to do a DIY system as Corley did, I have provided all the info you need for the conversion for over 15yrs.
    http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/i...rt-here.47254/
    It covers EFI conversion for any vehicle.

    Hope this helps sort through all the confusion.
    Bill Hamilton

  36. #116
    Champion Member Bill USN-1's Avatar
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    Good idea. Keep in mind though, that Hamilton and Dynamic are competitors, at least to some degree, so you may get a somewhat biased opinion. Several of the GMC motorhome group used to install the Hamilton kits, until the Dynamic ECU modification came along, then they pretty much switched to that because it CAN BE cheaper than the Hamilton kit, and allows much easier/cheaper tuning, and is a great DYI project for techy guys. Plus, they have a really good support forum on the GMC Motorhome web site. Actually at this time, most of the GMC MH techy guys have already done the conversion to EFI, and at this time, the non-techy guys are moving to the FITech self tuning setup, as it requires hardly any technical knowledge, and at $800.00 can be a really cost effective solution to VL. (GMC Motorhomes have a propensity to vapor lock with todays fuel, because they put so much heat under the coach, which heats the fuel in the tanks, leaving that group of vintage vehicle restorers needing a solution, and EFI pretty much solves that problem.)
    I think you have me confused with another company.
    I do motorhomes but do not specialize in them. I do mostly orphan vehicles. The ones others don't support.
    Maybe look at Howell, they do a lot of MH systems but they remove the timing control? so you only get half a system.
    Bill Hamilton

  37. #117
    President Member Corley's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what Bill Hamilton say's. The reason I think the Dynamic EBL system is good for the Studebaker is that a) there is not EFI system designed specifically for Studebaker engines, and b) there is a wide variety of Studebaker engines out there. (Different CI, different cams, different CR, etc.) The EBL system allows you to easily tune to all those differences. But I'm sure that Hamilton's product is also a great solution, if he has tuned it to your specific engine combo. Bottom line, EFI is worth the effort to some, not all.
    Corley

  38. #118
    Speedster Member DougHolverson's Avatar
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    Now isn't that lovely? I just signed up for Binder Planet. And I almost bleed Persian Orange #2….
    1963 Champ "Daisy Stu Bludebaker"- sometimes driver
    1957 Silver Hawk "Josie"- picking up the pieces after an unreliable body man let it rot for 11 years from an almost driver to a basket case
    1951 Commander Starlight "Dale"- basket case, next project after the Hawk
    1947 Champion "Sally"- basket case
    1941 Commander Land Cruiser "Ursula"- basket case

  39. #119
    Champion Member Bill USN-1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corley View Post
    I agree with most of what Bill Hamilton say's. The reason I think the Dynamic EBL system is good for the Studebaker is that a) there is not EFI system designed specifically for Studebaker engines, and b) there is a wide variety of Studebaker engines out there. (Different CI, different cams, different CR, etc.) The EBL system allows you to easily tune to all those differences. But I'm sure that Hamilton's product is also a great solution, if he has tuned it to your specific engine combo. Bottom line, EFI is worth the effort to some, not all.
    Last I saw, EBL is not a system. It is simply a modification to the factory GM ECM to allow a different user interface. You would still need to purchase and install a complete GM EFI system and then have the ECM modified.
    Then acquire the remainder of the items on the provided list and then....
    Learn all you can to even know what each parameter is and what needs to be adjusted!
    http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Flash.php
    So you basically follow all my DIY instructions or buy a complete system from me and then turn around and modify it to use the EBL so you can then play with the tune yourself.
    I really have nothing in competition with Dynamic EFI or FITech.
    We all fill a different segment of the market.


    My system is complete install and turn key. Already tuned for the engine with factory timing specs converted to digital timing tables, fuel curve established.
    I provide the data logging cable and software so the customer can connect a laptop log data and then email me the data so I can evaluate the system installation and tune.
    If any tweaks are needed due to cam change or altitude, to get the base line tune dialed in so the ECM doesn't need to auto correct on start up, I do that too.
    The customer simply swaps the chip and is done.
    There's no learning curve or tuning required.
    I do lots of oddball engines like the Amphicar or a 232 flathead Nash or a dual 1bbl 225 slant 6 along with hundreds of IH-international Harvesters and AMC of all years starting with the F and L series 134.
    I develop the system and the custom tune for each application to ensure smooth reliable operation for years to come.
    Last edited by Bill USN-1; 05-03-2017 at 04:55 PM.
    Bill Hamilton

  40. #120
    President Member Corley's Avatar
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    Bill,

    I don't think we disagree on much of anything, as you said, EBL is good for people who WANT TO tweek things, and learn all about EFI and their specific setup, and a plug-n-go setup like you provide is best for the non-techy guy who just wants to, well, plug-n-go.

    What I will observe is that the old adage "if it is mine, it's got to be the best" applies to most of this stuff. People tend to love what they know. Therefore, I don't think there is any ONE right answer for everyone.

    My EBL setup cost me about $500 in total, some scrounging for parts at the men's mall, and lot's of install time (mostly building the wiring harness). Tuning has not taken much time at all, and I can easily repeat it in a couple minutes (plus drive time) if I make any modifications to anything. I can try a lot of different "try it and see what happens" things for fun and learning. The only reason I called it a "system" is because it also provides the software for monitoring and tuning, which allows a feedback on the spot via an updated bin. Actually the "system" is the GM TBI EFI, and all of these modified versions, EBL, yours, Howells, etc, are simply that, modifications to the GM TBI EFI. (As opposed to something like Mega Squirt, DIY EFI, FItech, and all the other self tuning "systems"). So, technically, you are correct, EBL is not a "system". For the techy guy, I like the monitoring I have on the dash at all times, since I have a laptop on the dash for navigation anyway, and all the interesting things I can look at and watch and learn from it. One area where you have it all over my setup is the wiring harness. That took a lot of digging and wringing out, and was a royal pain to make. Getting all the lengths customized to the installation, and everything routed in an organized manner is a HUGE deal. You have that sorted, laid out and all the correct connectors marked as to where they go. That is worth some serious cash/time, when implementing the GM TBI EFI system.

    You are also correct that the cheap "systems" like the $800 FITech system, don't control timing. Well, you CAN step up to their system that DOES control timing, for a few hundred more, but as we both said, you ain't gonna fix it at the local Napa when it breaks. Still, it is WAY simpler to install that GM TBI EFI systems.

    Here is why on the GMC Motorhome, people want additional monitoring, such as a second A/F gauge, and more critically, an EGT probe. IF, for whatever reason, the big Olds engine goes a little lean on a long hill, for example, it WILL burn valves in less than a minute as exhaust temps skyrocket. It has happened to a number of owners. Therefore, they really want to keep an eye on the exhaust temps under hard pull situations. You will probably never see that issue with typical automobile installs, but these guys are running a 12k lbs plus coach, pulling a 5K lbs plus towed, with a car engine. (Olds Toronado, 455ci) Since it now runs about $5k to rebuild the engine, plus another $2k to install it, it is a big deal if it breaks. For whatever reason, the Chevy 454 throttle body on the Olds engine is running right at it's max fuel flow in these rigs, and most of us have noticed in our fuel tables that we are up in the 90% Pulse width area with 13PSI (Stock) fuel pressure. If/when this is observed (easy to see before disaster with EBLs software and TunerPro), we know we need a bit larger injectors, or we need to increase the fuel pressure. (I am running 17 lbs now.)

    Another area that we can observe is the spark knock counts at various rpm/map settings. Since there was never an Olds 455 or 403 with EFI from the factory, there is no knock sensor that is actually tuned to that block. (Think of a knock sensor as a microphone, listening to the engine for spark knock.) Also, there is no "right" place to put a knock sensor, but if you are going to implement spark timing control you NEED a knock sensor. (This could be a Studebaker issue as well.) People put them all over the place, trying to find something that is "right". What I've done, for example, is to put a 454 sensor in the water drain plug, which gave me way too many false knock counts. Then, I put a 100k pot across the sensor, and adjusted it to what I think is real knocks. Then I set the timing advance at the various RPM vs MAP settings. The engine feels a lot stronger with optimal timing, but you gotta be safe or you will put a hole in a piston, so you must use ESC (electronic spark control) to back off timing if spark knock is occurring.

    Stuff like that is way too techy for most people to want to care about. For guys like me, the GM TBI system with the EBL modification is perfect. If you are not techy, and don't want to fiddle/learn everything in the system, I always recommend a canned package, which, while probably not squeaking out every last bit of power and efficiency, will just simiply work, as the GM system did. That's where I recommend something like the Hamilton setup. A step down the scale from that, and I recommend the FItech system, or something self tuning like it. Sometimes I forget that not everyone is coming from the same level of experience/interest.

    Years ago, I built a one-off EFI system for a 215ci aluminum Olds in a hot rod('61 - '63 variety). I used several 555 timers, and a few off the shelf sensors. It was not too hard to make it run well at any RPM/MAP setting, but getting it to run well at lots of RPM/map settings was not really obtainable, without a LOT more work than I was willing to put into it. It was, however, a great learning experiment, and looking back, while somewhat of a waste of time, well worth it in experience. Some of the home built aircraft guys are building their own EFI systems, which work OK for them, since they pretty much set an RPM and leave it alone. It's a fun subject.

    Just my thoughts, Thanks for your thoughts too Bill Hamilton
    Corley

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