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Thread: Volkswagon In Trouble With The EPA (Defeat Device Found)

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Volkswagon In Trouble With The EPA (Defeat Device Found)

    This is a symptom of the Internet electronic age.....
    Imagine your car knowing someone 'official' has plugged in and it changes the settings to pass the test?
    Sort of like hiding the dishes and spraying Fabreze around when the locals show up....


    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...rules-epa-says

    (snippet quote)
    The Environmental Protection Agency says Volkswagen intentionally violated the Clean Air Act by using sophisticated software in its diesel-powered cars that detects emissions testing and "turns full emissions controls on only during the test."


    Installed in four-cylinder cars, the software, which the EPA calls a "defeat device" that's meant to trick official tests, allowed diesel Jettas, Beetles and other cars to "emit up to 40 times more pollution" than allowed under U.S. emission standards.


    After the automaker was confronted with emission test results this month, the agency says, it admitted that the vehicles contain defeat devices.
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




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    Man I got to get one in my cars. I bet the mpg went up to.

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    I have to laugh but really 40 times as much pollution? Seems impossible.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
    I have to laugh but really 40 times as much pollution? Seems impossible.
    Agreed. "...40 times as much pollution?" You'd think they'd be smoking worse than perceived diesels of old if that were the case.

    It does say "up to 40 times as much," so maybe there is a small window in the total run cycle where it spikes to that extent....but if so, only rarely. Probably a misleading statement...or at least easily mis-interpreted... BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

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    All joking aside, if VW intentionally altered the computer to trick emissions this would be inexcusable.

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    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
    All joking aside, if VW intentionally altered the computer to trick emissions this would be inexcusable.
    Sure gives me incentive to look into buying a NEW VW. Anything that sticks it to a bunch of dimwit elitist "Barney Fife" paper pushers can't be all bad! Besides, all the VW Diesels on the road, probably don't emit as much pollution as a herd of farting cows on a single large cattle ranch. I'd like to see one of those officials try to ram a "sensor" up one of THOSE exhausts!
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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    I wonder if the people at the top knew of it? I could see an independent minded nerd doing it to win a productivity prize or such. It certainly goes against the image I would expect from VW as a responsible, adult car provider.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    President Member Jeff_H's Avatar
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    Some of you know I work for a well known maker of green and yellow tractors. I recalled seeing some internal company engineering graph a few years ago that compared the relative amounts of diesel emissions permitted under various "tiers" for off highway diesel vehicles. I recall the tier 4 was a tiny amount as compared to a pre-emissions control engine. I asked someone who works in the engine controllers group about this and 40X seems about the same as going from current tier 4 specs back to the old tier 1 specs. Tier 1 specs started in 1996.

    This chart is publicly available and shows a comparison of each tier from 1 to 4. Tier 0 (no controls) would be much higher I expect.



    I am given to understand the on-highway specs are very similar but were put in place sooner as compared to off-highway.

    I wonder if these cars are using a lot less of that DEF fluid than they should be and this is how it got noticed? I have not read the articles as of yet.

    EDIT: Found another chart showing all the tiers compared to pre-emissions:

    Last edited by Jeff_H; 09-21-2015 at 02:05 PM. Reason: added more info

    Jeff in ND

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    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    I wonder how many other car companies are doing exactly the same thing and haven't been caught (yet).
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

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    Most of the government bureaucrats who do 90% of running the country are a bunch of clueless idiots. One time I bought a bunch of computers in the mid 90's that booted up as belonging to the IRS. They were very interesting. Some of them even had cracks for the various games that were popular at the time, although they all had more serious data. However being not of the criminal persuasion I just looked, shaked my head and reformatted the hard drives and resold them as that is what I had purchased them to do. These were IBM 8088 and a few 286 computers with 10 & 20 MB hard drives. If I was to acquire something like that nowadays I would never see daylight again. Of course today they destroy them rather than selling them. Probably will having the men in black at my doorstep in the morning after positing this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jclary View Post
    Sure gives me incentive to look into buying a NEW VW. Anything that sticks it to a bunch of dimwit elitist "Barney Fife" paper pushers can't be all bad! Besides, all the VW Diesels on the road, probably don't emit as much pollution as a herd of farting cows on a single large cattle ranch. I'd like to see one of those officials try to ram a "sensor" up one of THOSE exhausts!
    John,
    If you lived in California dairy-country like I do, you'd know they're already measuring this and trying to figure out what to do about it!

    DUST has already been declared a pollution source. If you have dirt roads on your farm, you must water them down each day so you don't generate dust when you drive on them. Really! This, when we've already run out of water for our crops due to four years of drought.
    KURTRUK
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    Sounds like VW has picked up some NASCAR team tricks. Now caught with their hand in the cookie jar, Corporate Honchos will quickly disavow all contact with the designated fall guys who will bear the brunt of the guilt.
    [SIGPIC]

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    Quote Originally Posted by plwindish View Post
    Sounds like VW has picked up some NASCAR team tricks. Now caught with their hand in the cookie jar, Corporate Honchos will quickly disavow all contact with the designated fall guys who will bear the brunt of the guilt.
    This one won't go away easily so it'll be interesting to see how high it goes. The problem will be that the decisions were probably made in Germany and that adds a whole new degree of difficulty unless they were doing the same to circumvent European Standards. If so, Let the fun begin.
    , ,

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurtruk View Post
    DUST has already been declared a pollution source. If you have dirt roads on your farm, you must water them down each day so you don't generate dust when you drive on them. Really! This, when we've already run out of water for our crops due to four years of drought.
    In the HORSE & buggy days in heavily populated areas, airborne dust really was a pollutant! When horse droppings dried and mixed with the gravel, wind would stir it up as dust, and was a major cause of typhus and other respiratory diseases. Someone must have forgot to tell them, people don't ride horses to work and back (aside from the Amish) anymore!!

    Craig

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    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    In the HORSE & buggy days in heavily populated areas, airborne dust really was a pollutant! When horse droppings dried and mixed with the gravel, wind would stir it up as dust, and was a major cause of typhus and other respiratory diseases. Someone must have forgot to tell them, people don't ride horses to work and back (aside from the Amish) anymore!!

    Craig
    Back when I was competing in equestrian events that covered a 100 miles over a weekend...there was a short lived movement to ban us from using public land for our events. One of the objections was the "Horse Apples" deposited along the trails. My best friend (a Veterinarian), cited an extensive study, regarding horse droppings, when he was called to testify. I don't have the details, nor can I cite the research source. However, the result of the research determined that horse waste is some of the cleanest, innocuous, and harmless waste in the animal world. It was further determined that horse manure was more beneficial than harmful. That particular movement dwindled away. I'm sure there will be more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclary View Post
    Back when I was competing in equestrian events that covered a 100 miles over a weekend...there was a short lived movement to ban us from using public land for our events. One of the objections was the "Horse Apples" deposited along the trails. My best friend (a Veterinarian), cited an extensive study, regarding horse droppings, when he was called to testify. I don't have the details, nor can I cite the research source. However, the result of the research determined that horse waste is some of the cleanest, innocuous, and harmless waste in the animal world. It was further determined that horse manure was more beneficial than harmful. That particular movement dwindled away. I'm sure there will be more.
    An ones urine is awfully clean early in the production. I think the problem comes from the rich environment it (manure and urine) creates with time for the growth of many forms of contagious ne'er-do-wells
    , ,

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclary View Post
    However, the result of the research determined that horse waste is some of the cleanest, innocuous, and harmless waste in the animal world. It was further determined that horse manure was more beneficial than harmful.
    Don't invite me to your place for supper! I might not accept after reading this!!

    Craig

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    Quote Originally Posted by kurtruk View Post
    John,
    If you lived in California dairy-country like I do, you'd know they're already measuring this and trying to figure out what to do about it!

    DUST has already been declared a pollution source. If you have dirt roads on your farm, you must water them down each day so you don't generate dust when you drive on them. Really! This, when we've already run out of water for our crops due to four years of drought.
    Boy,
    I really feel old now. I remember when dirt roads were oiled with used motor oil by municipalities to keep the dust down. l'm also pretty sure that coal dust / soot is still used in small towns instead of salt on winter roads. I live in upstate New York and dairy farming is very big business; this being NY, the nanny state, we can probably look forward to "cow" inspectors in our future.

    Sigh
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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    I remember going to the Missouri Ditch Witch dealer in Eureka, SW of St Louis...back in the early 80's... (I was on the way to Perry, OK)
    When I stopped at the end of the off ramp a guy in a space suit waved me down and asked me where I was going.
    When I told him Ditch Witch, he let me turn left to go there, but would not let ANYBODY turn right.
    Turns out that was Times Beach, and the local guy was oiling all the dirt roads with transformer oil laden with dioxin.
    That was one of the incidents that started the EPA superfund for man made ecological disasters..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Beach,_Missouri

    http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2014...lished-dioxin/

    Quote Originally Posted by stall View Post
    Boy,
    I really feel old now. I remember when dirt roads were oiled with used motor oil by municipalities to keep the dust down. l'm also pretty sure that coal dust / soot is still used in small towns instead of salt on winter roads. I live in upstate New York and dairy farming is very big business; this being NY, the nanny state, we can probably look forward to "cow" inspectors in our future.
    Sigh
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    President Member Scott's Avatar
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    I think it's kind of funny and frankly doesn't bother me much for several reasons.
    Still, it's unethical (to whom? Think about that). Studebaker's emissions were always honest - from the horse's behind to the tailpipe.
    "Madness...is the exception in individuals, but the rule in groups" - Nietzsche.

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    I read elsewhere that even though there is a requirement on the NOX nobody in the US checks for NOX emissions after the car leaves the factory, so I imagine they thought it would never be detected.

    It was detected by a college professor I think. I wonder if he will eventually be hated as much as Ralph Nader?
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    It is very simple. The engineers will take the hit for this. The senior leaders and board will not admit that they knew anything. Volkswagen will file for bankruptcy and the general public will be left holding the bag and buying blue additives to change the emission's output on these cars.....@ $25.00 per gallon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plwindish View Post
    Sounds like VW has picked up some NASCAR team tricks. Now caught with their hand in the cookie jar, Corporate Honchos will quickly disavow all contact with the designated fall guys who will bear the brunt of the guilt.
    Sounds like the opening statement to Mission Impossible.

    If any of you or your team is captured, the secretary will disavow all knowledge of your operation. Good Luck Jim. This tape will self destruct in 5 seconds.

    Bob Miles
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    Golden Hawk Member JDP's Avatar
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    The way VW did it was pretty slick if dishonest. The emission system was deactivated if the rear wheels were not moving and the fronts were (like on a emissions roller.)
    JDP Maryland

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Wonder how many other diesel cars will be discovered cheating after all this?
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    Speedster Member oldsalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
    I have to laugh but really 40 times as much pollution? Seems impossible.
    Of course it's impossible. But the generation of EcoNazis that infest DC feel that any exaggeration or [as in this case] outright lie is not only OK but justified and forgivable because it is for a 'better world' or some other NewSpeak that I have trouble understanding.

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    Maybe Audi will be next

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Audi is already in the pot with VW in this as they share engines.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    VW owns Audi.. Along with Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, and a couple of others.

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbstude View Post
    VW owns Audi.. Along with Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, and a couple of others.
    But mostly no diesels in those brands....though Porsche offers a slick looking suv with a diesel v6....only 70K! Maybe I'll get one when they're 12 years old.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    President Member Jeff_H's Avatar
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    Just heard that Mercedes, Mazda, Mitsubishi, & Honda are also in the doo for this....

    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-emissions-row

    Have not read articles yet.

    Also heard other companies as well.

    I would expect some of these could be a case of specs-manship. Meets the letter of the spec but not the spirit. Test spec conditions are always sort of artificial and engineering can figure out a way to meet those specs under the specified test conditions but real world may not. Blame who wrote the spec then if not good enough to emulate real life.

    Jeff in ND

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Ahah! Of course everybody designs their cars to meet the test.....(but not the intent of the test?)
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    I think we're going to be hearing about this for many years. There are real problems trying to mitigate this:
    ---Your going to be asking consumers to bring in their cars for some kind of retrofit that will result in poorer performance across the board. I don't believe there is a vehicle to force consumers to bring in their cars for any recall! This will drive the eco-nuts even more crazy.
    ---Will VW be forced to a buyback?
    ---Will VW be forced into a rebate ? The WSJ reprts that overall value of the subject vehicles has dropped 13% already and continues a downward trend!

    Sit back and enjoy this industrial soap opera

    stall
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    President Member Peanut's Avatar
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    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    I,for one sane person,it would seem, am glad for the EPA. I don't want my rivers catching fire.
    Plain and simple, they cheated and got caught. Why do you think this is okay?
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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    I'm glad for the EPA too. Cars are much much better now than they were before it existed.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

  37. #37
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Don't hold your breath waiting for Volkswagen to go bankrupt; they'll have accumulated a very heavy cushion after being around for 80 years. Even if things get bad for them they probably won't even hiccup - they'll just sell of a sub-division.

    What's seems strange to me is that there doesn't seem to be a dustup about this in Deutschland. When I was stationed there they were extremely fussy about the environment. For instance, if you spilled antifreeze on the ground and a German citizen saw you do it, and saw you drive away without cleaning it up, he or she could report you to the authorities and they would literally come and arrest you. I know this for certain because as a military investigator and liaison to the Kripo in Norddeutschland I was assigned to investigate such a case. It turned out to be an honest mistake on the G.I.'s part. His radiator hose blew off on the autobahn on a long flat stretch of road next to a peat marsh. He put it back on with some tools he had in the trunk, filled up his radiator from a jug of water he had in the trunk and then went on his merry way; not realizing that he'd just committed a serious taboo. A German watched him drive away from that puddle of green liquid, took down his plate and turned him in. The Politzei took a statement, turned the case over to the Kripo and my Kripo counterpart showed up at the PMO demanding he be turned over. His commander brought him down to the PMO, turned him over and then had to go downtown and formally take custody of the guy under the S.O.F.A.. The poor guy couldn't figure out what evil he had done. When I explained that he was being arrested for environmental contamination he was even more astounded and bewildered. Visited the "crime scene" and there were at least a dozen Germans in some kind of uniform digging up the soil along the autobahn. They'd even placed some kind of heavy brightly-colored barriers at the edge of the marsh on the other side of the fence line. As they dug down, they tested and re-tested that soil until they were certain they had all of the antifreeze-contaminated soil in their containment vehicle and then truck standing by with clean soil filled in the hole, they carefully raked it all out and seeded it, covered it with some kind of moss-looking media to prevent the seed from blowing away and then watered it - all in the space of about an hour and a half.

    In the end the "investigation" - which really amounted to only informing him of his rights (he waived them) and then questioning him and taking a statement in front of the Kripo counterpart - confirmed that he did in fact violate German law by not cleaning up the mess and immediately informing the authorities of the exact nature and location of the event. He ended up paying a civil fine and had to reimburse the Germans for the cost of the cleanup and he ended up getting an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment). If the same thing had happened on Ft. Bragg and someone had reported it to the PMO I doubt that they would have even filed a report. Heck, at Bragg they blow up electrical transformers full of PCB's on a demolition range that has a creek running through it, fer cryin' out loud.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
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  38. #38
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hausdok View Post
    Don't hold your breath waiting for Volkswagen to go bankrupt; they'll have accumulated a very heavy cushion after being around for 80 years. Even if things get bad for them they probably won't even hiccup - they'll just sell of a sub-division.
    Or leave the U.S market, just as the French automakers have done.

    Craig

  39. #39
    President Member hausdok's Avatar
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    Nah,

    They'll never leave this market. Call me prejudiced - and I guess I am - but most Americans aren't greatly enamored with the French, especially their cars. I think the French automakers were lucky to have been able to survive here as long as they did.
    Mike O'Handley, Cat Herder Third Class
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    Quote Originally Posted by stall View Post
    I think we're going to be hearing about this for many years. There are real problems trying to mitigate this:
    ---Your going to be asking consumers to bring in their cars for some kind of retrofit that will result in poorer performance across the board. I don't believe there is a vehicle to force consumers to bring in their cars for any recall! This will drive the eco-nuts even more crazy.
    ---Will VW be forced to a buyback?
    ---Will VW be forced into a rebate ? The WSJ reprts that overall value of the subject vehicles has dropped 13% already and continues a downward trend!

    Sit back and enjoy this industrial soap opera

    stall
    They may even face claims of mental anguish by some environmentalists who realize the "green" cars they have been driving weren't so green!

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