Also a new 1957 Golden Hawk Owner but a 400?? Hope so.

[BobPalma]

Still wondering why the serial/body numbers of the 51 known to be authentic GH 400's need to be kept a secret.

I understand the dangers of repo serial/body plates, but would anyone really try to clone a regular GH into a '400' and pass it off as the 'real thing'?

Absolutely...unless certain nefarious elements of human nature have changed since Adam and Eve were deceived and I didn't get the memo. Nothing in our current culture seems to suggest it has ... in fact...oh, well, never mind...

A MoPar enthusiast at The Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race opined that my Barracuda had to be one of the few remaining 318-powered 1971 convertibles that had not been cloned into a hemi. Even when those cars are disclosed to be clones, they still bring big money. They'll bring even more if someone can successfully pass them off as the real McCoy.

To clone a Golden Hawk 400, the cost of the leather interior would be a killer, but the balance of the restoration would cost the same as any other 1957 Golden Hawk. With the right line of BS -oops, I mean enhanced information including "documented proof" it was a real 400- it could easily sell for more than enough over the price of a comparable "regular" 1957 Golden Hawk to more than offset the cost of the leather interior upgrade from standard upholstery in the donor car. BP

[Mark Klinger]

Absolutely...unless certain nefarious elements of human nature have changed since Adam and Eve were deceived and I didn't get the memo. Nothing in our current culture seems to suggest it has ... in fact...oh, well, never mind...

A MoPar enthusiast at The Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race opined that my Barracuda had to be one of the few remaining 318-powered 1971 convertibles that had not been cloned into a hemi. Even when those cars are disclosed to be clones, they still bring big money. They'll bring even more if someone can successfully pass them off as the real McCoy.

To clone a Golden Hawk 400, the cost of the leather interior would be a killer, but the balance of the restoration would cost the same as any other 1957 Golden Hawk. With the right line of BS -oops, I mean enhanced information including "documented proof" it was a real 400- it could easily sell for more than enough over the price of a comparable "regular" 1957 Golden Hawk to more than offset the cost of the leather interior upgrade from standard upholstery in the donor car. BP

Let me assure everyone that is not the case with my Hawk, I'm just trying to follow up on Claude Walker research which certainly seems to suggest this is indeed an early 400. I feel that the sales order dated 4/18/57 justifies the extra effort needed to correctly identify this car. Bob, does Tom Lawlis follow the forum? I also sent him a CD of the images I posted here to help with his evaluation. It certainly doesn't look like a job that a dealer would have installed with all the under dash paint, etc. By the way, what was the original interior paint color for a Golden Hawk with a gold vinyl interior?

Mark

[BobPalma]

Let me assure everyone that is not the case with my Hawk, I'm just trying to follow up on Claude Walker research which certainly seems to suggest this is indeed an early 400. I feel that the sales order dated 4/18/57 justifies the extra effort needed to correctly identify this car. Bob, does Tom Lawlis follow the forum? I also sent him a CD of the images I posted here to help with his evaluation. It certainly doesn't look like a job that a dealer would have installed with all the under dash paint, etc. By the way, what was the original interior paint color for a Golden Hawk with a gold vinyl interior? Mark

Absolutely again, Mark; none of my remarks apply to you or your car; we are talking about contemporary people, not those who built and sold your car back in 1957!

I have no doubt as to the authenticity of your car as you received it; we're just trying to sort out how and why the Production Order deviates so dramatically from how it was apparently configured when delivered April 18, 1957...not how it might be marketed at a Barrett-Jackson auction in 2016!

Tom Lawlis doesn't follow the forum, but if you didn't send him your telephone number, send me a PM with it and I'll relay it to Tom. It would be good for him to talk to you about the car personally once he's had time to review the materials. BP

[Scott]

Still wondering why the serial/body numbers of the 51 known to be authentic GH 400's need to be kept a secret.

I understand the dangers of repo serial/body plates, but would anyone really try to clone a regular GH into a '400' and pass it off as the 'real thing'?

I'd like to know why the numbers should be kept secret when the 9 original Avanti R3's are all well known. Is it just because they are so well known? I don't think so. R3 clones have been made and I'm sure some of them have been passed off as authentic. Why were't their serial numbers kept a secret?

[8E45E]

I'd like to know why the numbers should be kept secret when the 9 original Avanti R3's are all well known. Is it just because they are so well known? I don't think so. R3 clones have been made and I'm sure some of them have been passed off as authentic. Why were't their serial numbers kept a secret?

I think all nine of those R3 Avantis survive and/or are accounted for, where all the 51 GH 400's do not.

Craig

[BobPalma]

I think all nine of those R3 Avantis survive and/or are accounted for, where all the 51 GH 400's do not. Craig

An excellent point, Craig; thanks.

Someone cannot discover a rotten old Avanti somewhere, tart up an R2 engine to make it look like an R3, create an authentic Serial Number plate for it, and run it off to Barrett-Jackson as one of the nine, genuine R3 Avantis.

Oh, they could try, but due diligence via a quick check around the internet (including this forum) will confirm for anyone that all nine of those cars have already been accounted for, so there are none of them left to be "discovered." BP

[Scott]

An excellent point, Craig; thanks.

Someone cannot discover a rotten old Avanti somewhere, tart up an R2 engine to make it look like an R3, create an authentic Serial Number plate for it, and run it off to Barrett-Jackson as one of the nine, genuine R3 Avantis.

Oh, they could try, but due diligence via a quick check around the internet (including this forum) will confirm for anyone that all nine of those cars have already been accounted for, so there are none of them left to be "discovered." BP

Then it seems to me the most appropriate action is to begin a registry for the 400s.

[RadioRoy]

Doesn't a 400 have the outside faux leather arm rests like the Packard Hawk does?

[SN-60]

Doesn't a 400 have the outside faux leather arm rests like the Packard Hawk does?

It would have made sense.....but no, the 400's didn't have that feature.

[Mark Klinger]

It would have made sense.....but no, the 400's didn't have that feature.

Well, if this is a 400 and I think the general agreement is this is an original 400 interior. Just how did it get here?? Then they did have the outboard armrests and the surface is leather, the balance of the door panel appears to be vinyl and carpet.



Hopefully they show okay, if not I''ll get some more pics. They are identical to the ones in the 400 card that was on here earlier.

Mark

[bezhawk]

It could be either a 400 or Packard Hawk interior. The only difference would be the outside arm rests

[Mark Klinger]

Here's another thing to consider. This car has smooth stainless two piece door sills. The front piece is 27", rear 18 1/2". Mitered to fit in the corners. What type of door sills does the Golden Hawk come with? I don't have one to compare this to. In some of Claude Walker's research he mentioned the smooth sill is particular to the 400's, they certainly don't look like a stock Hawk part.


Mark

[Mark Klinger]

Absolutely again, Mark; none of my remarks apply to you or your car; we are talking about contemporary people, not those who built and sold your car back in 1957!

I have no doubt as to the authenticity of your car as you received it; we're just trying to sort out how and why the Production Order deviates so dramatically from how it was apparently configured when delivered April 18, 1957...not how it might be marketed at a Barrett-Jackson auction in 2016!

Tom Lawlis doesn't follow the forum, but if you didn't send him your telephone number, send me a PM with it and I'll relay it to Tom. It would be good for him to talk to you about the car personally once he's had time to review the materials. BP

Oh no Bob, I don't feel that way at all. I enjoy the hunt and mystery of how this happened too. Have to admit my intent in buying initially it was maybe to flip the car but now there's no way that's going to happen. If it turns out to be one then all the better, if not it's only got 52,600 miles and will be a blast to drive. Tom has my number, I'm glad I included the pictures and look forward to talking with him.

Mark

[BobPalma]

Cool beans, Mark.

BTW, your photos are excellent; clear and with excellent detail. Thanks. BP

[SN-60]

Well, if this is a 400 and I think the general agreement is this is an original 400 interior. Just how did it get here?? Then they did have the outboard armrests and the surface is leather, the balance of the door panel appears to be vinyl and carpet.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46019[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]46020[/ATTACH]

Hopefully they show okay, if not I''ll get some more pics. They are identical to the ones in the 400 card that was on here earlier.

Mark

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here Mark. Are you saying that your Golden Hawk DOES HAVE the outside padded exterior armrests that were standard trim on a Packard Hawk?