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Thread: EPAS on Buttercup

  1. #1
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    EPAS on Buttercup

    Besides working on the front disc brakes, I've been doing some shade tree engineering on Buttercup's steering.

    The first two pix are of the column with the Saturn upper part attached.
    The second two are of the column with the upper part of an aftermarket chrome tilt column attached.















    Whatdya think? Am I crazy or what!
    Last edited by Jerry Forrester; 10-22-2017 at 09:46 AM.
    Jerry Forrester
    Forrester's Chrome
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    See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/qP6MR

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    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Jerry is leading edge (as usual). Although it has been used for a few years in new cars, electric power steering is starting to happen for hot rods. Relatively simple, no plumbing, no pump, no engine load. There are new units available just for rods and you can always adapt an OE unit.

    Nicely done, Jerry!
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

  3. #3
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    Jerry is leading edge (as usual). Although it has been used for a few years in new cars, electric power steering is starting to happen for hot rods. Relatively simple, no plumbing, no pump, no engine load. There are new units available just for rods and you can always adapt an OE unit.

    Nicely done, Jerry!
    Thanks Dick. Any kudos from you I consider a great honor.
    Jerry Forrester
    Forrester's Chrome
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    See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/qP6MR

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    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Forrester View Post
    Thanks Dick. Any kudos from you I consider a great honor.
    ...and I consider you FOS to consider it a great honor.
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

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    Jerry

    Are you tying that to the original box or another R&P setup? And what did it come from? Inquiring mind need to know.

    As usual, nice and creative work, Bob
    , ,

  6. #6
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    Jerry

    Are you tying that to the original box or another R&P setup? And what did it come from? Inquiring mind need to know.

    As usual, nice and creative work, Bob
    Original steering box.
    Donor parts from a 2002-7 Saturn Vue (also Equanox).
    Also you have to go to EBAY and get a controller/potentiometer from a guy in Portugal.
    I got the power unit (lower half of the steering column) from a You-Pull-it for $55.
    The next day I realised I also needed the upper half. That cost me another $45.
    If I had gotten it all at the same time it would probably have been $55 for everything. Live and learn.
    The controller/potentiometer was about $75 including shipping from Portugal.
    Jerry Forrester
    Forrester's Chrome
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    See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/qP6MR

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    Very interesting Jerry. I saw that done on TV on Phantom Works on an Avanti. It seemed to work great. They've been doing it for years on ATV's with great success so why not on cars.

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    I tracked down the control box and while finding it I see the prices on the used Saturn EPAS units. Your's was still a reasonable deal. I'm not sure how you find what you find but kudos to you for finding and posting same. "Did I use find enough in the sentence?"

    This one stays in the file. Thx, Bob
    , ,

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    Interesting idea, but I still don't see the need for power steering or brakes in these cars..!?
    Though I do have four wheel disc brakes on both my 54 wagons, neither have power assisted brakes and they work great. Just pick the right master cylinder piston size. The Stude OEM pedal lengths (both upper and lower lengths) are already very good for this application.

    Mike

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    President Member junior's Avatar
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    ha ha Jerry you surprised me on this one! your earlier post on the 'surprise on the other side of the firewall' had me figuring you placed the 'speeder upper/slower downer' gizmo you posted about a few years back. I was thinking about the aftermarket eps units but the price was scary...kudos to ya for going oem. Not that it matters to you at this point, but there was a thought provoking article in Car and Driver a few months back about the different methods the OEM have created eps systems. thumbs up on this creation, so exciting!cheers Junior

    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

  11. #11
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Van Veghten View Post
    Interesting idea, but I still don't see the need for power steering or brakes in these cars..!?
    Though I do have four wheel disc brakes on both my 54 wagons, neither have power assisted brakes and they work great. Just pick the right master cylinder piston size. The Stude OEM pedal lengths (both upper and lower lengths) are already very good for this application.

    Mike
    Your car, your choice. My car, my choice.
    Jerry Forrester
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    See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/qP6MR

  12. #12
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junior View Post
    ha ha Jerry you surprised me on this one! your earlier post on the 'surprise on the other side of the firewall' had me figuring you placed the 'speeder upper/slower downer' gizmo you posted about a few years back. I was thinking about the aftermarket eps units but the price was scary...kudos to ya for going oem. Not that it matters to you at this point, but there was a thought provoking article in Car and Driver a few months back about the different methods the OEM have created eps systems. thumbs up on this creation, so exciting!cheers Junior
    Thanks Junior. I'll keep everyone up to date on the progress.
    Jerry Forrester
    Forrester's Chrome
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    See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/qP6MR

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    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Forrester View Post
    Also you have to go to EBAY and get a controller/potentiometer from a guy in Portugal.
    A vendor at the recent Portland, OR, swap meet was selling similar, complete set ups (I'm not sure of the OE steering column he used or where he got the controller/potentiometer). I played with his set up some. One thing that is super neat is that you can dial in the amount of assist the EPAS provides...and you don't have to leave it alone if you dash mount the pot. You can dial in a lot of assist when you parallel park, and dial most out when you are on the freeway (or track).
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

  14. #14
    President Member junior's Avatar
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    Like I said, not that it matters, but still good reading...

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features...n-test-feature

    cheers, junior

    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

  15. #15
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    One thing that is super neat is that you can dial in the amount of assist the EPAS provides. You can dial in a lot of assist when you parallel park, and dial most out when you are on the freeway (or track).
    That's one reason I'm doing it. Who needs power assist over 15 miles per hour.
    Now I'm starting to sound like another guy on this forum that thinks anyone that wants more that 175 HP must be crazy. Why would anyone need a car that would run more than 60 MPH. <G>
    Jerry Forrester
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    A vendor at the recent Portland, OR, swap meet was selling similar, complete set ups (I'm not sure of the OE steering column he used or where he got the controller/potentiometer). I played with his set up some. One thing that is super neat is that you can dial in the amount of assist the EPAS provides...and you don't have to leave it alone if you dash mount the pot. You can dial in a lot of assist when you parallel park, and dial most out when you are on the freeway (or track).

    Yeah, Dick, I bought one of those. Might use it in the Flxible coach. If it will work there, it will work anywhere. Sorry I missed you at Portland. I forgot my cell phone.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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    Man, wish I would've thought of this! Anxious to see more details.
    Dave Nevin
    Corvallis, OR
    1953 Champion Deluxe Coupe
    Stud-e-venture blog

  18. #18
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Finished the steering column today. Shortening a tilt column is a lot harder than one might think. Been working on this all week.


    A roof plumbing vent boot makes an excellent firewall/column seal.


    This is all that's left of the original steering post.
    Last edited by Jerry Forrester; 12-17-2017 at 01:26 PM.
    Jerry Forrester
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    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    Jerry Like your idea for the boot. What do they call that { thinking outside of the box}

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    A vendor at the recent Portland, OR, swap meet was selling similar, complete set ups (I'm not sure of the OE steering column he used or where he got the controller/potentiometer). I played with his set up some. One thing that is super neat is that you can dial in the amount of assist the EPAS provides...and you don't have to leave it alone if you dash mount the pot. You can dial in a lot of assist when you parallel park, and dial most out when you are on the freeway (or track).
    Unisteer has had kits available for some time, using an I-Did-It custom steering column, but the price is outrageous--$1600.00 with a controller. This sure looks like a more cost effective conversion. Thought about it on my Avanti but there isn't enough room for the motor under the dash and still have room for your feet, plus the various various changes needed for the pedal linkages etc., would make it an even worse nightmare. Looks like a good idea on something other than an Avanti though--

  21. #21
    President Member junior's Avatar
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    Jerry, how is the 'intermediate shaft' conneceted to the steering box? What one sees in the photo, is that an outer shell or jacket around the input shaft of the Ross box? The tilt mechanism, is that Saturn OEM, or aftermarket like Iditit? This is cool! Thanks, Junior

    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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    Golden Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Well...I appreciate your "self-deprecating" claim as "shade-tree." However, I know (first hand) SHADE-TREE...this ain't it. Besides the excellent craftsmanship... I see concrete floor, walls (with electrical lines in conduit), and a roof. Holes neatly cut in sheetmetal, instead of hacked through with a mortar hatchet, and not a speck of flash rust from last night's dew.

    In terms of work, craftsmanship, and creativity, my only consolation is that I used a roof vent flashing for a steering column seal about twenty years ago.

    As for "shade-tree," come to my place. Of course you'll probably stumble over something or step "into" something. Of course, not many people take me up on the offer...cause they're afraid I'll ask them to "shovel" something.

    Great work, (as always)
    John Clary
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  23. #23
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karterfred88 View Post
    Thought about it on my Avanti but there isn't enough room for the motor under the dash and still have room for your feet, plus the various various changes needed for the pedal linkages etc., would make it an even worse nightmare.
    There are plenty of ways to do EPS...

    https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...&hsimp=yhs-001

    If there is not enough room under the dash, using the EPS incorporated in a rack might work...

    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    There are plenty of ways to do EPS...

    https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...&hsimp=yhs-001

    If there is not enough room under the dash, using the EPS incorporated in a rack might work...



    Yes, if we didn't have Studebakers, Haven't found an acceptable rack conversion yet, either hydraulic or electric--a center steer unit like a Chrysler or GM j car is a marginal way to do it, if you don't mind losing your Ackerman. The distance at the back of the cross member between control arm mounts is so small it doesn't leave enough room to get 6 plus inches of travel, and clear the oil pan at the same time. If someone uses an electric rack with center steer I might try it. Looked into a used Ford Taurus police rack (rear steer to get the rack motion correct) and using a traveling bar, but won't fit. Oh well, just have to live with the Bendix bag of snakes for now.

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    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junior View Post
    Jerry, how is the 'intermediate shaft' conneceted to the steering box? What one sees in the photo, is that an outer shell or jacket around the input shaft of the Ross box? The tilt mechanism, is that Saturn OEM, or aftermarket like Iditit? This is cool! Thanks, Junior
    Everything on the engine side of the firewall is Studebaker. What you see in the pic of the inside Is part of the Stude mast jacket with a steel bung and an oil lite bushing.
    I made the coupler to go from the Stude steering post to the EPAS from the Saturn steering joint. Borgeson didn't have a coupler with the correct splines.
    It is an aftermarket chrome steering column.
    Last edited by Jerry Forrester; 05-29-2015 at 06:54 PM. Reason: typo

  26. #26
    President Member junior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Forrester View Post
    Everything on the engine side of the firewall is Studebaker. What you see in the pic of the inside Is part of the Stude mast jacket with a steel bung and an oil lite bushing.
    I made the coupler to go from the Stude steering post to the EPAS from the Saturn steering joint. Borgeson didn't have a coupler with the correct splines.
    It is an after market chrome steeriing column.
    Ok I get it now...I guess this set up has the added advantage of a 'break point', while not a true collapsible shaft it is safer than a solid shaft from steering box to steering wheel. You made this look so simple...kudos. On the topic of coupler, did you use a 'double D' design instead of splines? Can't wait for feedback on how this works on the road! Cheers, Junior.

    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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    Stock shaft is hollow, that would prevent the use of a double D coupling---wouldn't it ?
    How did you modify the Saturn steering joint ?
    Is there going to be a "boot" of some sort at the stock steering box, between the box and mast jacket ?
    South Lompoc Studebaker

  28. #28
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55 56 PREZ 4D View Post
    Stock shaft is hollow, that would prevent the use of a double D coupling---wouldn't it ?
    How did you modify the Saturn steering joint ?
    Is there going to be a "boot" of some sort at the stock steering box, between the box and mast jacket ?
    No,everything on the engine side of the firewall is stock except the firewall boot.

    Cut the joint apart and welded it back together without the cross.
    Last edited by Jerry Forrester; 05-30-2015 at 03:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Forrester View Post
    Original steering box.
    Donor parts from a 2002-7 Saturn Vue (also Equanox).
    Also you have to go to EBAY and get a controller/potentiometer from a guy in Portugal.
    I got the power unit (lower half of the steering column) from a You-Pull-it for $55.
    The next day I realised I also needed the upper half. That cost me another $45.
    If I had gotten it all at the same time it would probably have been $55 for everything. Live and learn.
    The controller/potentiometer was about $75 including shipping from Portugal.
    Jerry, found this thread awhile back and am still collecting parts. Thanks for the inspiration!! I have the Vue unit (ebay) complete with lower shaft and joints and the harness from the gentleman in Lisbon. What additional parts do I need from the Vue north of the electric unit? Outer jacket, inner shaft? I'd like to adapt the tilt column from a C4 parts car I have. I'm using the C4 front suspension and plan to couple the EPS to a manual rack.

  30. #30
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    I bought 2 kits from the guy in Portugal for my Champs. I have an extra Champ frame with the complete front end to do the setup & work out any bugs before installing them into my 61 & 62. I'll start that when I'm done with the body on my 59 Lark wagon.
    59 Lark wagon, now V-8, H.D. auto!
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  31. #31
    President Member StudeNewby's Avatar
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    I remember this thread from last year. My 64 Champ is also in need of an assist. Very interested...
    Mike Davis
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  32. #32
    President Member 345 DeSoto's Avatar
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    Jerry,
    I'd REALLY like to keep my Sky Hawk upper column/hub/steering wheel...and upgrade the steering box to a "bolt in" quicker steering box...OTHER than the Stock Ross Sky Hawk box. How difficult would it be to just splice the EPAS unit onto the Stock Sky Hawk column...sorta "cut and paste"? Your thoughts?...

  33. #33
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345 DeSoto View Post
    Jerry,
    I'd REALLY like to keep my Sky Hawk upper column/hub/steering wheel...and upgrade the steering box to a "bolt in" quicker steering box...OTHER than the Stock Ross Sky Hawk box. How difficult would it be to just splice the EPAS unit onto the Stock Sky Hawk column...sorta "cut and paste"? Your thoughts?...
    It can be done. It's just a lot of work. But no more than what I had with using an after market chrome tilt column. I don't know if your Hawk has the horn wire up through the column shaft. If so, that's something you'll have to contend with.
    As far as the quicker steering box, good luck with that.
    I used the original Ross box but took an inch out of the bell crank arm that attaches to the drag link. That changed it from about 5 turns lock to lock to a tad over three.
    Jerry Forrester
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  34. #34
    President Member Noxnabaker's Avatar
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    Interesting; one inch cut out of the bell crank arm... the bit that atatches to the pitman arm & steering box, if that's the drag link bit? Or to the tierods end with the two/2 holes?
    (I aint much of an expert on US language...)


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  35. #35
    President Member 345 DeSoto's Avatar
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    Jerry,
    Three things...First, THANK you for the response. Next. I imagine I could pull the horn wire and run it on the outside of the column. It does run down the center of the steering shaft now. Third...In addition to shortening the bell crank, I wonder if it would shorten the number of lock to lock turns if the Pitman arm were to be shortened... or if that would be detrimental to the steering system. Thoughts?...

  36. #36
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxnabaker View Post
    Interesting; one inch cut out of the bell crank arm... the bit that atatches to the pitman arm & steering box, if that's the drag link bit? Or to the tierods end with the two/2 holes?
    (I aint much of an expert on US language...)
    The drag link goes from the pitman arm to the bell crank. That part of the bell crank is what I shortened.
    I'm not advising you to do this.I'm just telling you what I did.
    Jerry Forrester
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  37. #37
    President Member Noxnabaker's Avatar
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    Okidoki, thanx!
    I'm just curious, I have a bit over 4 turns so I'm not sure I'll need it.


    Josephine
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  38. #38
    President Member 345 DeSoto's Avatar
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    s-l400.jpg

    Jerry,
    Is this what I need?...02-07 SATURN VUE EQUINOX COMPLETE ELECTRIC POWER STEERING PUMP MOTOR COLUMN EPAS

  39. #39
    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345 DeSoto View Post
    Jerry,
    Three things...First, THANK you for the response. Next. I imagine I could pull the horn wire and run it on the outside of the column. It does run down the center of the steering shaft now. Third...In addition to shortening the bell crank, I wonder if it would shorten the number of lock to lock turns if the Pitman arm were to be shortened... or if that would be detrimental to the steering system. Thoughts?...
    The only thing shortening the pitman arm would do is give you a larger turning radius. To get less turns lock to lock you would have to lengthen the pitman arm or the second part of the bellcrank (the part the tierods hook to), or SHORTEN the first part of the bellcrank, or the third arms (quick arms that Stude vendors sell}.
    Jerry Forrester
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  40. #40
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    I don't believe the guy in Portugal is selling the conversion wiring harness anymore & I'm in the middle of moving & where the harness I bought is the 64K question. If anyone has one of these harnesses perhaps we can get Lark Works to make them available. Our cars may or may not need this but Champs do! (at least my 3 could use it!)
    59 Lark wagon, now V-8, H.D. auto!
    60 Lark convertible V-8 auto
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    62 Daytona convertible V-8 4 speed & 62 Cruiser, auto.
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