Engine: Starter-Ring Gear-Flywheel interface

[Ted Johnson]

I have gone through a replacement "mini-starter" (bought on eBay) and part of my original "heavy" starter for my '62 Hawk GT, 289 4-speed. The starters mount and work fine for a long while, but the Bendix gears are eventually chewed down. Most recently it started fine, then after a short trip the starter just spun without starting the car. After push-starting and driving a few miles, it started fine again. I think there could be a bad spot on the ring gear/flywheel. That's what a guy at the starter rebuild place said when he saw my mildly chewed-up Bendix on my "heavy" starter. If I need to replace it, that means dropping the engine and tranny. Should I just get a ring gear? How involved is replacing the ring gear? Tomorrow I'm going to check condition of the ring gear teeth. The ones I can see now (without turning) seem to be OK. Any advice?

[unclemiltie]

A ring gear is changed on the flywheel by heating the gear and it expands. I took my last one to the machine shop and it was not that much money. I do not have a torch which is really needed to heat it.

[jg61hawk]

Just be sure the bolts holding the starter are the correct Studebaker Bolts. Starter bolts (at least on 1961 Hawks) are both different and not interchangeable and I don't believe they can be bought off the shelf. If the wrong ones are there the starter can shift under a load and that tends to mess things up. They are apparently very form fitting through the housing.

[Ted Johnson]

Just be sure the bolts holding the starter are the correct Studebaker Bolts. Starter bolts (at least on 1961 Hawks) are both different and not interchangeable and I don't believe they can be bought off the shelf. If the wrong ones are there the starter can shift under a load and that tends to mess things up. They are apparently very form fitting through the housing.

I appreciate both of your comments -- I have no idea if I have the correct bolts or not. They seem to fit snugly in the mounting and through the starter. How do I locate the bolts? I think misalignment is more likely than a bad ring gear, though I am going to inspect it tomorrow for condition. Any other thoughts out there? Ted

[greyben]

If you prefer to do things yourself the ring gear can be replaced at home without a torch. I've used this technique twice some years back. Heat the ring gear up in a very hot oven to about 500. This will be enough to allow the ring gear to slip easily over the flywheel. Just be sure to have everything staged with the flywheel in close proximity to the oven. You''l need some good gloves or tongs to handle the ring gear as well as a hammer or other suitable tool to tap the gear into place. It also helps if you have an understanding spouse or at least who is out of the house for a while. The old ring gear can be removed by breaking it with a chisel if it can't be tapped off.

[jackb]

.....you need to rotate the ring gear from the starter location with a pry bar to determine damage. Mark where you start and turn till you've seen all the teeth. What I've seen on a few worn ring gears is a 3-location pattern of wear.....so don't be surprised if you find more than one worn location. I'll agree with the above removal/replacement approaches. Along with the wrong starter mounting bolts, its possible you have a mal-aligned bell housing to block match. If they are not factory-like dialed in you could have your complaints and findings.....Also, I have always simply turned the worn ring gear over and installed unless very chewed up.....GL and report back...

[jg61hawk]

I'm not sure how to tell exactly if you have the right bolts other than if I remember correctly on my car they are different sizes. One doesn't fit where the other does (I think I remember that). If someone changed yours along the line I would think they bought two of the same bolts off the shelf. There are a lot of guys here that know more than I do I'm hopeful they will chime in. The other thing the parts book must show the bolts. I'll look up mine when I get the chance.

[Son O Lark]

If you prefer to do things yourself the ring gear can be replaced at home without a torch. I've used this technique twice some years back. Heat the ring gear up in a very hot oven to about 500. This will be enough to allow the ring gear to slip easily over the flywheel. Just be sure to have everything staged with the flywheel in close proximity to the oven. You''l need some good gloves or tongs to handle the ring gear as well as a hammer or other suitable tool to tap the gear into place. It also helps if you have an understanding spouse or at least who is out of the house for a while. The old ring gear can be removed by breaking it with a chisel if it can't be tapped off.

This works very well. It also helps significant others in the house if you clean the oils off the ring gear.

[greyben]

And in general it's not wise to clean parts in the dishwasher.

[Ted Johnson]

Just be sure the bolts holding the starter are the correct Studebaker Bolts. Starter bolts (at least on 1961 Hawks) are both different and not interchangeable and I don't believe they can be bought off the shelf. If the wrong ones are there the starter can shift under a load and that tends to mess things up. They are apparently very form fitting through the housing.

The one at the bottom is "form fitting", but the one at the top slips right through. The top one probably needs to be a little bigger on the head end, but how do you find such a bolt? In other words, the bolt hole at the top is a little larger than the bottom one, and shifting around could definitely cause problems. Where are the bolts?

[Ted Johnson]

The teeth on the ring gear seem to be OK, I think I've gone all the way around.

[jackb]

....to ruin 2 starter drives with a good (?) ring gear (damage is usually obvious), you're now looking inside the starter. Could be any number of things. Funny how the rebuilder couldn't/didn't inspect the starter...but he can now......also: can you tell me (us) the difference between a "heavy" and a "mini" starter ? I've never heard those terms..

[skyway]

No damage at all to the ring gear?
If the Bendix teeth are chewed they have to be hitting something?
If the bolts are not correct, thus allowing the starter to settle into a lower position, perhaps the Bendix teeth made just enough contact with the ring gear to spin the engine until it wore just enough to no longer make contact with the ring gear.
Similarly, if the starter itself is not shimmed enough to make the Bendix extend fully into the teeth of the ring gear, you get the same sort of condition; it will start the engine until the Bendix teeth, the ring teeth, or both wears enough to no longer make contact.
As an aside, I think 6 cylinder engines tend to stop in one of 3 places, and V-8's in one of 4. A trick on automatics is to remove the flex plate bolts, rotate the torque converter to a "good" non-worn spot on the ring gear, and bolt it back up.
This was my temporary (and successful) fix once when a professionally rebuilt starter was not properly shimmed. Lasted that way for years until I finally had reason to have the trans and bell housing off the car.

[jg61hawk]

I'm going to do what I always resort to....page Bob Palma. Standby...he always shows up like Superman.

[StudeRich]

I want to make it perfectly clear where these "SHIMS" mentioned on this string are located.

It is my understanding that they are internal to the Starter and or Bendix HOUSING, NOT between the Starter and the Bell Housing as some other makes have, no Studebaker ever had such a thing.

Teds situation really does cry out that the Clutch Housing is not centered/Dialed-in to the Engine and Crankshaft.