R3-r4 roster

[mbstude]

Great looking Avanti, Perfect wheels! Is Matt saying that the B-109 engine in it is an R3 with R5 pistons installed?

Yes.. That's Ed George's Avanti. Decades ago, it belonged to George Krem, who installed B-109 after buying the engine from Paxton. It was the last R3 sold with R3 heads, and it was built using the pistons from the R5.

[PlainBrownR2]

I guess I don't understand about the tag. So, we would tag an engine that was not an R3/4 to what end? To prove that it isn't the real deal? Or tag the original to prove it is the real deal? Either way it's kind of like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" Neither way proves anything. The tag will not prove or disprove anything. If we are protecting the novice buyer and tag the real deal, he doesn't know there even is a tag and a tag would be the easiest part of faking it. Or, "This engine is so original, it doesn't even have a tag." Anyone who really wants to can fake any auto part. Stamped part numbers or serial numbers? Please, it's done a lot. Even in the day, the factory left replacement block stamping areas blank to be stamped by the dealer with the original block's number. Got a block that's stamped wrong? Grind it down and restamp, weld it up, grind it back down flush and restamp. Casting numbers? Don't get me started. I've already posted one that passed judging at International meets. Weld and die grind what ever number you need. Keep a researched and continually updated registry? What if the block is one of the numbers not on the registry? Easy enough, John is still finding B and A blocks after tracking these things down for 50 years, plus, nobody knows where the numbers end. Only allow an engine to be certified as the real deal if it has unimpeachable documentation? Pretty tough to prove a block wasn't blown up the first time it ran and replaced with a regular block restamped to match. Making a fake engine look real enough to fool a novice is easy. Making a fake to fool an expert just requires more money for real R3/4 pistons, rods, etc. Numbers on parts or numbers in a registry will not stop a crook. The best one can do is try to verify any claims made using factory docs, rosters, interviews with previous owners, etc.

As to records showing how many R3/4 engines made it to South Bend, maybe there yet exists some shipping manifests. That list would be gold to Studebaker performance fans. Of course, an enterprising type crook might spot an opportunity and photoshop one. It would just be letterhead, paper, some signatures included with just enough real data to "prove" that an engine was one of the units shipped to South Bend and sent back to Paxton's using one of the numbers that isn't on John's roster. Bingo, instant provenance. Even easier than faking the casting numbers and serial numbers. Maybe even put in a couple of other numbers to "discover" in the future.

I do agree that one should provide documents of all modifications made on their cars and include them with the other paperwork when sold. Especially when those changes make it appear to be a more valuable, rare, or highly equipped unit. In the end, all future owners benefit. If you want to do that with a tag, I've seen tags with a small form to stamp in specs the car was built to and when. Or, just keeping nice records on paper with the registration.

I guess that about sums it up. There's also an additional element here for me; micromanagement. I can't stand micromanagement. It's enough I get it in reality, now for some reason, it needs to come to my car hobby? There is an element that makes all of this fun for me. But when the automotive version of the "rivet counters" start demanding that I start putting little metal tags on everything that I own, well that just sucks the fun out of the hobby. For now, I'd like to build an R3 using modern materials, I know a few longtime shops in the Chicago area that will do that, no problem, especially one that's built Studebaker engines aplenty. I have an empty JTS 289 block I bought from Harbit many years ago, just for this purpose. The only issue is the funding of course, so the project is shelved until I really get the "life ball rolling". Keeping paperwork, great, beautiful, do what's always been done in engine builds, keep the specs in a binder in the event it blows up, and needs to be torn down again. I have fine functioning printer that will handle that. But having to stamp and restamp, or buy a bunch of tags to stamp, and restamp, well for me, this is bordering on needless busywork, I mean I outta be labelling what antifreeze I use, what brake fluid is in the reservoir, and what brake and fuel lines I replaced in the car too, because they aren't original to the vehicle either, and be damned if I don't do these things, because I found this kinda documentation bordering on obsessive. As an off example of how bad this could get, my '55 has been extensively modified. It's not a 259, it's a 289, it has no column shift, it's got a floor shift, It's intake and exhaust ports were somewhat polished, but contain a welded in split in the center exhaust port. The exhaust system isn't stock by any means, it has two Mitsubishi turbos, runs an EDIS crank ignition system instead of a regular distributor, runs port injection instead of a 2 or 4 bbl, is on 12V instead of 6V, uses an aftermarket ECU and display in the console, and so on and so forth. I keep records of the photos, Megasquirt literature, Megasquirt software, and all pertinent information(which I should print to a binder) on the PC, as well as the VE and Ignition maps, should something crash on the ECU. The heads have also been swapped from the original 289 heads, to the 259 heads that I extensively modified, back to its original 289 heads, that I slightly modified, and the intake manifold has been pulled on and off the car quite a few times. I like doing these sorts of things, without the necessity of buying a whole buncha little tags, or anybody breathing over my shoulder, or doing and redoing the stamped documentation on a little strip of aluminum(well it's gonna be a tape roll by the time I get done with it) everytime I change something, it sucks the fun out of both maintaining and driving it. For me this is a hobby, an interest, not another means to shuffle extra paper around . Plus, if I'm called a bad boy for not wanting to partake in adding tags to all my stuff, so be it. I wasn't one to take demands very well, and I have quite a few extra skills above and beyond checking my oil, and filling my tires!!

[studegary]

Thanks for posting John's roster Jim. John must have spent many hours assembling this information. However, it does confirm what I said about Paxton's (Studebaker's) record keeping of these rare engines being a bit 'sketchy' at best! An excellent reason to add an I.D. tag to any re-creation of these amazing old engines. A builder not doing so is only creating more confusion for future generations! Thanks Jim.

I do not see much value in adding an ID tag stating a clone/replica/tribute engine. All a later owner has to do is remove the tag and it becomes an original engine.

[JBOYLE]

A friend asked if I would take 75K for it like Avanti #4 sold for recently...... Ed

Have your friend give me a call.

[studegary]

I do agree that one should provide documents of all modifications made on their cars and include them with the other paperwork when sold. Especially when those changes make it appear to be a more valuable, rare, or highly equipped unit. In the end, all future owners benefit. If you want to do that with a tag, I've seen tags with a small form to stamp in specs the car was built to and when. Or, just keeping nice records on paper with the registration.

I have taken the time/effort to document all of the changes that I have made on a car, including year and model of various parts. Then I have gotten calls from subsequent owners that tracked me down looking for information on the car. It turns out that the documentation that I provided with the car was not passed on to the subsequent owners.

[jlmccuan]

It's not impossible to tell the huge majority of cloned heads and short blocks. Real R3/4 rods and pistons are very hard to come by and easily inspected by dropping the oil pan. Most cloners won't go to the expense of changing the center to center of the valve guides and are easy to measure by pulling the rocker covers. Taking off the valve covers and the oil pan will filter out 99% of the fakes. There are some other tells, too. If you go that far, find what look like good parts, but still have that queasy feeling - run away. Sure, you're probably losing a real deal, but you'll always have that feeling and for me that means I would have to tell anybody wanting it from me.

[SN-60]

I do not see much value in adding an ID tag stating a clone/replica/tribute engine. All a later owner has to do is remove the tag and it becomes an original engine.

Sure the I.D. plate COULD be removed, but that certainly doesn't mean that it WOULD be removed. It's really a question of honesty......and I like to think that Studebaker fans are an honest group! The bottom line Gary, is that the engine builder himself would know that he tried to do the right thing as he waves goodbye to his newly created 'Tribute' R3-R4 engine.

[SN-60]

I have taken the time/effort to document all of the changes that I have made on a car, including year and model of various parts. Then I have gotten calls from subsequent owners that tracked me down looking for information on the car. It turns out that the documentation that I provided with the car was not passed on to the subsequent owners.

That's one of the points that I tried to make when promoting the idea of an I.D. plate for 'Tribute' engines. If the verbal/paper trail is interrupted.......the future prospective buyer of this expensive Studebaker will be considering purchasing something that sure looks like an R3-4 but, well, who knows what it truly is/was?

[Stude8]

When reading the posts on this forum I noticed the R3-R4 roster Jim McCuan posted was dated 2012 and had 176 line items. I have edited the R3-R4 roster recently and current list is dated 5/19/2013. It has 3 additional line items and contains edits and corrections after discussing the cars with Nelson Boves at South Bend this past May.
Now I just found out this forum will not accept .xls files so I'll have to figure a way to attach scans as .doc pages?
John Shanahan

[R3 challenger]

I bought B-109 new from Paxton in the fall of 1969 ('still have the original receipt). When I checked with Paxton, I spoke with Joe Granatelli. He told me that they could supply only one more R3, but they were out of genuine R3 pistons so it would have to have the original pistons that were used in the Due Cento (R5) engine. He said that one side of the top of the piston was at normal R3 height and the other side was lower...this would result in a compression ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 instead of the stock R3 compression of 9.6 (or 9.75, according to AMA and museum specs).

I said "OK", bought the engine, and installed it in Avanti R-3371, the car Ed George now has (same engine still in the car). When I installed it, it ran poorly below 3,000 rpm but came on strong above that. When I wrote to Paxton, Joe answered me and said I had the stock cam, but when I removed it, it was definitely not stock. I replaced it with a stock cam and it ran great at all rpms.

Later, I removed the heads and found that Joe had accurately described the pistons. It's likely that what they sold me was the core (block and heads) of the original R5 engine, cam and all, although I can't prove it. But with the radical cam and genuine R5 pistons, it seems likely. Also, it needed a valve job after just a couple thousand miles because a couple of exhaust valves were burned. This makes me suspect that the engine had been run hard before I bought it. BTW, Joe G. told me that B-109 was the last R3 they could build.

R-3371 with that engine once outran a 427 Chevelle on the top end on the Indiana Tolway, but don't tell anybody.

George

[SN-60]

I bought B-109 new from Paxton in the fall of 1969 ('still have the original receipt). When I checked with Paxton, I spoke with Joe Granatelli. He told me that they could supply only one more R3, but they were out of genuine R3 pistons so it would have to have the original pistons that were used in the Due Cento (R5) engine. He said that one side of the top of the piston was at normal R3 height and the other side was lower...this would result in a compression ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 instead of the stock R3 compression of 9.6 (or 9.75, according to AMA and museum specs).

I said "OK", bought the engine, and installed it in Avanti R-3371, the car Ed George now has (same engine still in the car). When I installed it, it ran poorly below 3,000 rpm but came on strong above that. When I wrote to Paxton, Joe answered me and said I had the stock cam, but when I removed it, it was definitely not stock. I replaced it with a stock cam and it ran great at all rpms.

Later, I removed the heads and found that Joe had accurately described the pistons. It's likely that what they sold me was the core (block and heads) of the original R5 engine, cam and all, although I can't prove it. But with the radical cam and genuine R5 pistons, it seems likely. Also, it needed a valve job after just a couple thousand miles because a couple of exhaust valves were burned. This makes me suspect that the engine had been run hard before I bought it. BTW, Joe G. told me that B-109 was the last R3 they could build.

R-3371 with that engine once outran a 427 Chevelle on the top end on the Indiana Tolway, but don't tell anybody.

George

What an interesting story!......Threads such as this one bring stories out that otherwise We may never hear.

[Stude8]

I scanned my Excel files into .jpeg images of the 5 page R3-R4 Roster 2013b.
They are attached with this message.
John Shanahan

[jlmccuan]

Thanks, John. I was hoping you'd check in. Sorry I haven't been by lately, but hoping to get a little more rope soon. Seems like every time I go out of town a few days everybody gets excited. On a related note, I'll be going to Wilmington again the first weekend in July, lol.

Back to the thread. Now that more folks are aware, I hope we can convince you to publish some of your research, compilations, indexes and bibliographies. It's a worthy project that I would be proud to assist with should you need help.

[SN-60]

Thanks, John. I was hoping you'd check in. Sorry I haven't been by lately, but hoping to get a little more rope soon. Seems like every time I go out of town a few days everybody gets excited. On a related note, I'll be going to Wilmington again the first weekend in July, lol.

Back to the thread. Now that more folks are aware, I hope we can convince you to publish some of your research, compilations, indexes and bibliographies. It's a worthy project that I would be proud to assist with should you need help.

This is good......this is good!!!!!!!!

[SN-60]

I bought B-109 new from Paxton in the fall of 1969 ('still have the original receipt). When I checked with Paxton, I spoke with Joe Granatelli. He told me that they could supply only one more R3, but they were out of genuine R3 pistons so it would have to have the original pistons that were used in the Due Cento (R5) engine. He said that one side of the top of the piston was at normal R3 height and the other side was lower...this would result in a compression ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 instead of the stock R3 compression of 9.6 (or 9.75, according to AMA and museum specs).

I said "OK", bought the engine, and installed it in Avanti R-3371, the car Ed George now has (same engine still in the car). When I installed it, it ran poorly below 3,000 rpm but came on strong above that. When I wrote to Paxton, Joe answered me and said I had the stock cam, but when I removed it, it was definitely not stock. I replaced it with a stock cam and it ran great at all rpms.

Later, I removed the heads and found that Joe had accurately described the pistons. It's likely that what they sold me was the core (block and heads) of the original R5 engine, cam and all, although I can't prove it. But with the radical cam and genuine R5 pistons, it seems likely. Also, it needed a valve job after just a couple thousand miles because a couple of exhaust valves were burned. This makes me suspect that the engine had been run hard before I bought it. BTW, Joe G. told me that B-109 was the last R3 they could build.

R-3371 with that engine once outran a 427 Chevelle on the top end on the Indiana Tolway, but don't tell anybody.

George

One question George,.....It's long been said that the 'Due Cento' threw a rod through the side of it's engine block at Bonneville. I have no idea if that's really what happened. But if the engine at Bonneville did 'blow', then the engine that Joe Granatelli sold You in '69 couldn't be the same one.....could it?

[bezhawk]

Greg Cone has the R5 engine, at least the block. It has had to be repaired as the pan rail was broken. I supplied him with nearly NOS R3 pistons (Forged True) several years ago. He was going to mill them to match what Andy did for the R5.

[jlmccuan]

I knew that but had forgotten the whole story. Somewhere I have pictures of the repairs. That's the biggest reason to spend time now digging this stuff out.

[StudeDave57]

I know of at least one R3 locally,
but I don't see the name on that list.
It's a legit engine from Paxton.
I'll have to get the numbers...



StudeDave '57

[Stude8]

To StudeDave57:

This is what I like when a forum thread turns up more subject data. Please do report on here the vehicle description, cyl block serial number and any history about the R3 you know about not on the roster yet and I will update the roster data base with it.

The forum rules just asked me to add 10 more characters to this message to meet minimum requirement.
John Shanahan

[SN-60]

Every other post on this forum is about your I.D. tag campaign. I am amazed at your obsession.

Well Mike,...It's like this...There have been several articles written over the years about Studebakers equipped with the R4 engine. Mainly Avantis. Two come to mind right away, but I'm not going to mention the owners names here......
(or anywhere else). Both cars have/had 'clone' R4 engines, that internally are really still R-2's with perhaps an overbore on the re-build. Externally, of course, they appear to be 'R4'. Then bezhawk posts a thread with the title 'R4 Progress' (Or something like that) and that did it......The 'clones' (Or TRIBUTES as bezhawk named them) MUST (To Me anyway) be identified and labeled for what they are.....a Studebaker engine modified to satisfy the tastes of it's current owner. NOT THE EXTREMELY RARE ORIGINAL ARTICLE!!! If these engines aren't 'tagged', it WILL lead to confusion in the future.

[jlmccuan]

I gotta say SN60, if there was any way on Earth I thought requiring builders to ID fakes by tagging them would stop forgeries, I'd be with you. But anyone forgetting to mention the engine they're selling is a clone or tribute, would also remove any such tags. If persons are already faking the casting numbers and stamps on faked parts, why would expecting them to be tagging these parts ever work? That's the only problem I see with it, honestly.

Now as for builders identifying engines they've built, that's all fine and certainly doable. Some already do by leaving part numbers and stamps alone and telling buyers what they're getting. Some don't and sell all kinds of back stories to go with their parts and cars. Even if complete factory documentation were available, scammers will be selling forgeries. Do your due diligence, just art investors, real estate folks and anyone else interested in protecting themselves.

BTW, I heard the term tribute car on Speed referring to clone cars several years ago. I think bezhawk was being a little tongue in cheek.

[jlmccuan]

Another thought SN60. I applaud you trying to approach this from a positive direction. The internet is full of "watch out for this forgery" sites and not all are honestly trying to protect other consumers so much as trying to damage the reputation of honest businesses.

[SN-60]

Another thought SN60. I applaud you trying to approach this from a positive direction. The internet is full of "watch out for this forgery" sites and not all are honestly trying to protect other consumers so much as trying to damage the reputation of honest businesses.

Thanks Jim. It's probably time to 'Hit The brakes' on this subject....and I did appreciate Your insightful thoughts.

[8E45E]

What an interesting story!......Threads such as this one bring stories out that otherwise We may never hear.

The story on the next engine, B-110, is here: http://www.studebaker-info.org/JTN/JTNEWS/jtn15.htm

Craig

[jlmccuan]

It would be interesting to know the dates of when Paxton released these B engines. Seemingly no order whatsoever. Were the blocks numbered when selected in South Bend? Were a group of blocks sent from South Bend and tested for fitness at Paxton, then numbered? Was there a rejection of blocks already numbered due to imperfections found when finish machining? There surely was an engineering protocol for selection and disposal of rejects. All very intriguing to me.

[Alan]

Craig; That time line in the B110 story seems about right. Between 66 and 68 I bought 2 sets of R3 heads from Joe. At the end of 68, Oct. or so when Rich Bennett picked up Due we had to scrounge to find a set of R3 heads for him. Early in 69 just before I left there was an incident where Ed Murry came with a customer that owned an Avanti that he wanted to put an R3 in. Joe went off on Ed Murry and told him to stay off his property until they were ready to load the engine. Lional Stone later bought the car from Bob Patton on consignment from Le Concours in 73 and went Postal when he found out it was an R2 with a R3 blower box.

[jlmccuan]

The story on the next engine, B-110, is here: http://www.studebaker-info.org/JTN/JTNEWS/jtn15.htm

Craig

So B110 was a short block supplied with R2 connecting rods?

From the story:

"Paxton Products did a poor job of assembling the rods to the pistons. The clamp bolt for the wrist pin had worked loose on cylinders 5 and 6. The wrist pin started to scratch the bore in those two cylinders."


EDIT: I seen John already has a note on the internal parts.

[SN-60]

This is all really interesting stuff!

[Stude8]

In 1970 I bought the first R3 powered Avanti #5089 which at that time had a Chevrolet 460 CID V8 engine. I had previously bought the original R3 engine (R3SH320) a few years prior. Part way into the job of reinstalling the R3 in 5089 it became necessary to sell the car to a friend Mark Dahl. The story was featured in AOAI NL#26 in 1975. Attached are some photos of 5089 with the GM engine and then the reinstallation of the R3.

The R3 engine was rebuilt by Mike Salay Speedshop in South Bend, IN in 1974. In the magazine article photos [top left] Shanahan looks at the R3 heads; [top RH] Mark Dahl new owner, assembles 4 speed trans to R3; [Bottom LH] Mike Salay & Mark Dahl assemble heads to R3 block; [Bottom RH] Shanahan prepares R3 on hoist to reinstall in Avanti 5089.

[Stude8]

Somehow I lost the Avanti 5089 pictures of the GM 460 CID engine in the first reply, lets try again!

[SN-60]

Somehow I lost the Avanti 5089 pictures of the GM 460 CID engine in the first reply, lets try again!

Great story! Do You happen to know the whereabouts of R-5089 today?

[rkapteyn]

One change to this roster would be that I sold our R3 #5089 to Randy Rapp of Collinsville Illinois.
Randy will restore this car .I was getting too old to do this.
This was the first of the nine original cars produced and was once owned by John Shanahan.
John rescued it from being hot rodded.
A long story behind this is in Bob Johnstone pages along with a treasure trove of information.
http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1...89/r5089c.html
Robert Kapteyn

[Stude8]

Yes and No; the Avanti 5089 was bought from Mark Dahl estate when he passed away many years ago. It was bought by Studebaker parts dealer Bob Kapteyn of Joliet, IL. Kapteyn I just learned sold the car with the R3 installed to a buyer this month. I don't have name of new owner or where abouts of 5089 at the moment. John Shanahan

[packardHawk58]

It says in the article that the Avanti had a Chev L88 engine in it. If it was, that's a very expensive engine to sell, he probably recouped his money to finance the R3 engine and then some.
Great story, articles like this make this Forum.

[SN-60]

I know of at least one R3 locally,
but I don't see the name on that list.
It's a legit engine from Paxton.
I'll have to get the numbers...



StudeDave '57

Dave,----Any more on that R3 engine up Your way?

[StudeMichael]

What other car clubs promote using ID tags on engines?

Well Mike,...It's like this...There have been several articles written over the years about Studebakers equipped with the R4 engine. Mainly Avantis. Two come to mind right away, but I'm not going to mention the owners names here......
(or anywhere else). Both cars have/had 'clone' R4 engines, that internally are really still R-2's with perhaps an overbore on the re-build. Externally, of course, they appear to be 'R4'. Then bezhawk posts a thread with the title 'R4 Progress' (Or something like that) and that did it......The 'clones' (Or TRIBUTES as bezhawk named them) MUST (To Me anyway) be identified and labeled for what they are.....a Studebaker engine modified to satisfy the tastes of it's current owner. NOT THE EXTREMELY RARE ORIGINAL ARTICLE!!! If these engines aren't 'tagged', it WILL lead to confusion in the future.

[SN-60]

What other car clubs promote using ID tags on engines?

I really don't know.....Perhaps none!....But aren't Studebaker Fans known for 'Thinking Outside of the Box'?

[StudeDave57]

Dave,----Any more on that R3 engine up Your way?

Any more....? Only that it is installed in a car.
With that I've said too much as it is, so no-
no more until the owner and I chat.
I'm already in enough trouble over this.

No more PMs folks~ thanks!!!





StudeDave '57

[Alan]

I saw Joe G. stamp block B48. He didn't seem to worry about exactly where the numbers were placed but were stamped in 2 spots one above and to the left of the JT or JTS number. Don't remember which. And on the back of the block by the distributor. He used special stamps and the B was not like the B in this reply. Looked more like a staple that had been smashed. If I see one I will know if it real or not.

[SN-60]

Any more....? Only that it is installed in a car.
With that I've said too much as it is, so no-
no more until the owner and I chat.
I'm already in enough trouble over this.

No more PMs folks~ thanks!!!





StudeDave '57

Well Dave, come on now!....YOU put it 'Out There'.... Folks on this forum are naturally going to want more information!!!