Price Of A Paint Job On A Hawk

[GThawkwind]

I'm all about BSing paint cost with each other but all this math......it needs to stop....

[jnormanh]

In referance to the chrome shop's costs, a huge percentage of those costs are a direct result of the EPA imposed requirements. Hazardous materials handling has become super expensive. It all adds to the cost of materials, the cost of handling the materials, the cost to dispose of the materials, the cost of the shop and equipment needed to qualify to deal with those materials, and the list goes on and on. I'm not for a minute saying that the EPA imposed requirements are a bad thing, nor that they are not required if we want to stay on earth. What I'm saying, is don't confuse yesterdays costs with todays costs, and realize what you are actually paying for. 90% of what you are paying for is probably due to those EPA requirements. Their are similarities with painting... Lot's of hazardous materials these days, and lots of gov. agencies that know about them.

JMHO

Depends on what you mean by "super expensive" and "todays costs". The EPA regs have been in effect since 1976. The AESF did a study and determined that EPA regs add about 5-7% to plating shop operating costs. It's most certainly not 90%, and you should know better. Do you really think the cost or replating a bumper would drop from $400 to $40 if there were no regulations?

[jnormanh]

I'm all about BSing paint cost with each other but all this math......

Ummmm...how do you do costs without math?

[Corvanti]

Ummmm...how do you do costs without math?

uhhh, i think "GTH..." was joking! another time the "emoticons" come in handy!

without going "political", the EPA is nothing like it was when it first came on the scene in the 70's...

Joe found someone to check out for paint, so all should be well. waiting for his outcome!

[GThawkwind]

uhhh, i think "GTH..." was joking! another time the "emoticons" come in handy!

without going "political", the EPA is nothing like it was when it first came on the scene in the 70's...

Joe found someone to check out for paint, so all should be well. waiting for his outcome!

I yeah I was definetly joking, I checked for some emoticons that would show that my brain hurts, but there aren't any

[Corley]

Depends on what you mean by "super expensive" and "todays costs". The EPA regs have been in effect since 1976. The AESF did a study and determined that EPA regs add about 5-7% to plating shop operating costs. It's most certainly not 90%, and you should know better. Do you really think the cost or replating a bumper would drop from $400 to $40 if there were no regulations?

I find the tone or your replys to not be friendly nor helpful. Of course 90% is a gross exageration, that's why I used the word "probably". 90% is a gross exageration, just as 5-7% is a gross under exageration! By your own figures, $3000 went for disposal of hazardous materials. If the shop owner pays (again by your figures) $500,000 for his shop equipment, with proper ventilation, etc., certainly a portion of that adds to every job, and a big portion of that was not required pre EPA. The chemicals handling alone might easily double their cost when taken through the mfg process. Protective gear adds still more, EPA documentation adds a bit, permits adds on, and the list goes on and on.

I remember taking the grill on my new '65 Baracuda to a chrome shop in LA, and the vats were outside. No ventilation systems used whatever! The buffers, prep areas, etc, were also just under a shed roof, with an open side. No need for expensive shop equipment. The ground was obviously horribly polluted. To have them strip the paint, buff and polish the grill, then chrome plate it, cost a total of $45. What do you suppose that would cost today?

5-7%??? With your in depth credentials, I'd think you would know better! Lighten up, Dude!

[jnormanh]

http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/port/papers/Modern%20Electroplating/26.pdf

Lighten up yourself, Dude. I know what I'm talking about, facts. You are making guesses, and you are off base, The above link will take you to an in-depth study of environmental costs in the electroplating industry, and you will see that it was found to be just as I said. This reports concludes it is 6.5%. And just to be certain you are fully informed, read the footnotes too. I personally know several of the authors and I can assure you they are some the most respected folks in the industrial and scientific world.

Your uninformed guessing is neither friendly or helpful.

As to your $45 plating job, an inflation calculator says that is $323 in current dollars, and I,ll bet that isn't far off the cost to plate a new part today.

[GThawkwind]

You are so far off in the weeds about plating costs that I find it hard to believe that you are really a "chemist who has done a lot of chrome work".

If you think you can do a quality job on car bumpers for less than $400, jump in the business. You'll have to beat the customers off with a stick.

By the way, in the plating business NOBODY calls surface preparation "sanding". It's "polishing and buffing".

I like your reason for editing: "slopy spelling". Apropos.

Wow, maybe not the part I cut out of the quote but everything I left in was highly rude and uncalled for. Mocking spelling, and whether or not he's really a chemist? Wow. There is no need to take someones opinion of something so personally. I think what Corley meant by "lighten up dude" was lighten up, calm down, it's a thread about car paint for cryin' out loud, not a political debate! I usually don't get involved in this stuff, but this is ridiculous. I had to say something. While I know little to nothing about chroming and can't really say as to whether either of you are right, I can say it's not worth arguing about. I disagree with lots of people about trivial stuff and never get rude, or insulting about it.

[jimmijim8]

Bumpers come in all sizes and shapes. Rich Linsey, Barry Hackney sell Studebaker bumpers that are warranted rechromes for less than 400.00 I've seen an bought from them. You trade in a platable core if ya got one. II ain't LION. Gooosh! GTHawkwind, your feathers are really coming in quickly. Did ya find your dream car? cheers jimmijim

[new2drive]

Jnor....

Thats funny... I think you missed that I mentioned we have a plating dept in our shop and I am the one in charge of not only the environmental permitting but also the chemical costs and disposals too... (We use Ashland Chemical and everything is incinerated) .... I disagree completely and see what they do "in the real world" and if you knew how many platers are NOT above the boards (EPA wise) AND if you think your local chrome plater dumps his tanks every month or 3-6 weeks you are sadly mistaken. We have about 275 employees. I am the chemist/HSE tech and Environmantal contact. I have a background in metalurgy, machineing, drafting and am a cold work blacksmith... I can roll down a huge list of creds too... and many more.

QFF:

Maybe you can hire an unskilled worker for $10/hr. Add in payroll taxes, vacations and some minimal benefits, and that becomes $20. More if you provide good benefits. And for every productive worker, you're going to have to pay half of another non-productive employee to do sales, maintenance, payroll, supervision, purchasing, etc., so your labor cost alone will be at least $30 per productive hour, more if you hire people who know what they're doing. Electricity for a medium sized shop, say 20 employees, will be $4000/month.


Answer:

That is news to me.... as most chrome platers places around my neck of the woods are very small operations... 10-12 people max. And they are paid like crap and don't have any good bennifits... while the owners make huge buckets of profits. They don't even have a real chemist managing their tanks.... says a lot right there, but Custom Chrome in Erie PA is one of the most renown chrome places in the US... and I tell you... best chrome I have ever seen, but definitely not a clean shop with well paid employees with great bennies.... and you will pay for that good work.

On utilities... I know how much a shop costs and holy crap... a dedicated shop.. like a small time plater can cost a lot... at our place, running 30-40 machines on top of plating isn't that bad... but I will not say you are wrong... plating is all about polish and current.. which means larger electric bills. Our soft and hard annodize tanks are very expensive to run...

Quote:

Hazardous waste disposal will be another $3000/ month. Chemicals and supplies another $6000/month. Then there's the initial cost of plant and equipment. A decent shop of 20 employees with proper wastewater treatment and ventilation and good equipment is at least $500,000. The owner needs his profit too, and if he's in up front $500,000+, he certainly expects $50-100K profit.

Answer:
I call absolute and total BS on the above statement.... we are a very large company... and have waste chemicals hauled off about every other month production depending.... $3k/month on waste hailing???? WTF???? I don't think so. And I would like to be the guy that is selling them their chemicals!!! Yes, the Cu & Ni is expensive.... but NOT $6k/month expensive.... chems and consumables are not that expensive... unless they are running 3 shift and working 6 days a week... but if they are in that boat... they are bazillionaires and their costs are likewise increased.

I am saying a typical plating shop is a one shift place, about a dozen guys... You might be talking INDUSTRIAL chrome.... and then I would say sir, you are absolutely correct. But we are talking chrome restoration places that pretty much exist on the market of redoing chrome for cars and such... NOT an Industrial place. Please, do not confuse the two...

Oh and as for my terminology... I am sorry... the SAND PAPER used to POLISH is so fine they call it emory.... Really? Do not even think you can call me into question... you really want to talk shop... lets get together.. I am in SC a few times of year and would love to hear and be educated. And if I had the money I would be in the chrome or paint business.... unfortunately, at this stage in my life I don't have that kind of cash with 4 kids, 2 in college and trying to convince the wife I need 4 Studebakers....

What you say is sooooo correct for an industrial business... and please don't insult me again, you want me to use all technical terms? Big deal.. sanding/polishing.... it really is the same thing... just with a finer grit. Don't try to discredit me with mud slinging. It is very obvious to me that you have a very vested interest in making people believe that chromoing and painting do cost a a lot more than is practical or realistic... as I said in my original post... don't be going on and on about over head.... We are both a paint shop and plating... (unfortunately I can't get any of my work done here or I would!) I know the costs for permitting, the hoops we have to jump through, the audits, the cost of chemicals, employees, training, PPE, disposal.... All of these htings are my sole function at the shop I work at. We are a Fortune 500 company and ship over 10mllion in product each month...

I think I know what I am talking about.

I am sure glad I didn't bring up "blasting' of parts... then you would get all technical on me about thed ifference between shot, silica and aluminum oxide..... blasting is blasting.... you use a different media pending the desired outcome.

Honestly though, no harm no foul.... what you have said is absolutely 100% true for industry, especially an dindustrial chrome place I won't say a thing to go against what you said there... But please remember, industrial chrome is NOT cosmetic chrome plating and yes... an industrial place does and quite possibly spends more on waste hauling each month... but we are NOT talking about an industrial place.

But I have to say I disagree completely when you compare a Chrome Plating company vs the "mom and pop" cosmetic chroming places we use for our cars..... Do we need to address that? There are other chrome types? Listen, when I went to each chrome place (locally) they all gave me the same spiel about costs until I basically came out and said "I am a chemist" we don't chrome any more in our shop... I need a new source... I know the real pricing, etc.... the prices I was quoted dropped faster than flies in a bug zapper on a hot steamy summer afternoon. In fact, I actually help the one guy on the side with his tanks... he didn't have a chemist!!!!

This is funny though..... Both subjects... chrome and paint... the process themselves.. painting and chroming are not the expensive part... so all of our arguements are kind of moot.... overhead, etc....

What you hear from all of these master tradesmen is.... HOURS OF WORK AND LABOR..... doesn't that tip your hat or cock an eyebrow? If the processes were indeed the real $$$$ sinc.... you could easily put a dollar amount on them, seriously. But what you always hear is:
With chrome: a good chrome job doesn't come from sitting in the tanks any longer... it all comes from the PREP work.... not materials costs (and that IS the polishing job in between tanks).
With Paint: a good paint job is only as good as the prep work..... again, a loose/vague value that is easily manipulated and not concrete.

Of course clean shops, tanks, good equipment, etc all play a factor.... but when talking about PRICING.... in both areas... that is the real "variable".... if everything else is "correct", you can assign a fast and hard dollar amount to it via overhead.... It is the labor costs where you get bilked.... and going back to the original conversation....

Lets take my paint job... the painter did not have to "buy" buy all of his equipment just for my job, but it is reasonable to expect that there is a certain ROI he has and does indeed charge a little for "tool wear and tear".... A $5k paint job still comes out to be, after typical overhead.... about $3k profit as we discussed before.... and that is being generous as I credited 50 hours to work, not the "less than 40" if would typically take... and so the labor comes out to be $60/hour... but... if he is an employee... he isn't seeing that, he is seeing much, much less.... and if he is the owner/operator... he is making a killing.

The same can be said for the chrome business... the operator on the line... he is making very little and it is HIS work that dictates how good the chrome job is... he isn't seeing $65/hour... the owner is seeing most of that and I know we didn't do price breakout for plating, but we could. The profit margin is indeed smaller than painting... but I am telling you first hand... I know the shops I have dealt with enough that they do NOT do things above the boards... cosmetic chrome is pretty much always mom and pop shops.... not industrial places. In fact, most industrial places don't even do cosmetic chrome any more.

We can go round robin on actual costs and come up with concrete numbers, both for chroming and paintng.... I do NOT doubt that one iota... but you will see, the profit margin for the owner (if he has employees) or th epainter himself (cheaper as he has less overhead).... is still an imaginary/inflated number.... A lot can be said for the "independant" owner and operator.... their profit margins are much higher than the guy who owns a full on shop.... with 401Ks and lots of other overhead... like secretaries, chemists to pay, etc.... the thing is... labor costs... whether you are the guy at the local garage making minimum wage or your own boss.... someone in this car restoration game is making a killing because somewhere, somehow.... a pricing "norm" evolved that is insanely crazy....

This goes back to... I spent $35k resoring this car... it was a lobor of love.. it is only worth $22k.... a LOT of that money is tied up in paint and chrome.... and part mark ups.....

My example.... when I started in this venture... I needed wheel cylinder and a master cylinder...... I was quoted:
$125 for wheel cylinders & $245 for the master..... I wound up buying NEW wheel cylinder were like $24 each and the master was not much more... $45 if I remember correctly.... All of the products were currently available and the Bendix master is still used today in fork trucks.... My point.... over assessing the value of things for sale... this kills me because in the end, after you spend all of this money and put all of the pieces together your car is basically worthless compared to the investment and labor... even if you "pay yourself" minimum wage..... you quickly are left saying.... "WTF?" It is truely a labor of love then.... usually in life... when you put a lot of money into something, it has a value that meets or exceeds the expenditure... otherwise the return on investment is crappy.... and EVERY business in the world would fail.... heck.... it cost $25k to make this car, but we are gonna sell it fer $12k...... See my point?

The means to the end is insane as soon as you make it "collectible".... As an experiment yesterday, because of this thread... I called just one paint shop (leaving names out)... it was pretty funny actually.... I told him I had some scratches and my paint was fading, my minni-van is a 2005 and it has some minor rusting in the wheel wells that just came out this past winter from the salt.... can you give me a rough estimate... he politely said he couldn't until they saw it. I understand that completely... but then I said.. well, typically.. what would it cost, lets assume everything I said it true.... "Oh, depending on your paint (obviously)... if it was normal paint... you are looking at abot $2000. Then I said, wow that is pretty good... Do you guys paint antique cars...? he said no, but a guy that paints there does on the side... and he was right there... I spoke to mr. Smith next and asked him the same series of questions... he quoted me starting at $8k and said all of the same things we already discussed here.... then it hit me.... one thing he said was.... "well, you know those old cars, you want to make sure they are absolutely correct, done up right you know?"

So, you are telling me this guy.. who paints for a living for Chevy... on his own, thinks there is a difference in the work he does for the company he works for and gets paid a decent wage (I hope).... then the work he does on his own? That somehow when he does it himself, probably with tools he borrows form the shop he works at.... his work is somehow better and worth more? because it is an antique?????

Oh, and one more... yes, I am always editing.. I type like crap.... I mean like real bad.....

[8E45E]

So, you are telling me this guy.. who paints for a living for Chevy... on his own, thinks there is a difference in the work he does for the company he works for and gets paid a decent wage.

If you want my honest opinion..YES. All one has to do is look at the original production orders and read notes like "Tag: Show Car" and "Show Quality Preparation", etc., on them to convince me there IS a difference between a turnkey (assembly line) job over a car for show.

Craig

[Bob Andrews]

Brilliant post, new2drive, and again, your point is well proven. I read every word, and did something that is rare today- COMPREHENDED it. Very well written. But, you lose because of typos LOL!

I absolutely believe in capitalism and the free market, and Caveat Emptor. It is the shop's business if they want to try to clear a kid's semester of college on every paint job; but no one is required to buy their service if they don't want to. The wise consumer makes the effort to educate himself on the product/service and the normal market cost of same before they lay down their money. I know my comments in this thread were for that specific purpose.

It also stands to reason that there will be those with a vested interest- be it profit or just arrogance- that will not appreciate common sense being interjected into a discussion of reasonable cost. But another part of the Free Market is and should be discussion of what the real-world facts are, and future readers of this thread will find the 'look behind the curtain' you helped provide to be a real eye opener. The personal attack aspect (and your spelling errors) won't amount to a hill o' beans. I cannot imagine how much time it took you to type all that (thank Heaven there's not a 'dot' tax- yet- or your bill would be higher than a paint job), but I thank you for taking the time. For those venturing into this quagmire of subjective pricing, you have done a real service. Kudos.

[new2drive]

Ok, I conceed that point. I did not know that there were actual paint job grades... it sounds kind of crappy though....

I was taught and live by the moral compass of do it right, do your best, be honest and pay it forward.
Sometimes this involves doing something more than once, but I will never try to pass crap off as quality and I know quality can take time and quick quality is expensive.... so I would just think that the guy doing his assigned job woud do his best and take pride in his work.

I do some chemistry work on the side testing wells and ground water, soil, etc.... and I only charge for materials and travel for the most part... a little more for lunch, etc.... I come in far below what it would cost to have it done "on company time". I guess that it what is hard for me... I don't expect free or for someone to sell themselves short, but I do expect reasonable.. it isn't like they are Picasso.... and even he didn't make money at his work... I think.. until he was dead... then someone else made all of that money.

I found out also that a guy at work is getting his corvette painted.... wanna guess how much? $20k!!!! Now, in this case I do know the paint is just over $1k per gallon... so what, $2.5k for paint alone.... Tell me who the sucker is on this one.... they are getting it done at some "speacialty"corvette place in Erie... sorry... I just don't see it....

[JoeHall]

I must confess, I cannot stay focused long enough to read a couple of the above posts. Sooooooooooo anyway, back to the real world.

I drove the car on a 70 mile round trip to the guy's house yesterday. He has several examples, and pix, of work he has done, and it is impressive. He looked the car over carefully and estimated his labor hours at 100-110. I am pretty familiar, first hand, with labor required for a job like this, and agree with his estimate. I also estimate 10-30 hours of my own labor.

Excepting the doors, hood, and trunk which he will remove, I will remove all else, including the fenders if they need to come off (to be determined after he takes the car down to metal). I will also do any preventive work, i.e. on fender back side & body hull. I kinda hope the fenders need to come off, since I like to include the hidden areas & preventive steps in a paint job. Nowdays, I like to use POR-15, then top coat with Herculiner; years/decades ago, I used Rustoleum and roofing tar, which has held up incredibly well over the decades.

I am to provide the materials, and the current plan is to use Eastwood primers, PPG base-coat, and SPI clear-coat; it looks like maybe $1500 total, including all the misc stuff. I plan to keep all receipts, and will list them here after the job is done.

So the estimated overall price is close to what the folks at the other shop quoted, except they wanted to put it in a "round to it" bin, as discussed earlier. I feel a lot more comfortable with this guy, and will let y'all know how it all turns out.

I am so glad I am not taking the car to the first shop, thanks to you folks' input.
Thanks again.

[swvalcon]

Joe Looks like my estimate from the pictures where pretty close. I thought 160 hrs and that was me pulling everything apart and doing the undercoating. And 1500-2000 for supplies.