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Thread: Valve Oil Seals for bronze Guides

  1. #1
    Speedster Member
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    Valve Oil Seals for bronze Guides

    Currently have bronze valve guides in the heads of a '63 289. The guides are not tapered at the top (as w/ the std. Stude' guides). Has anyone used the standard umbrella type valve stem seals w/ the flat top bronze guides? Or, is it necessary to use the positive seal type as is usually used w/ these?
    Any and all comments are appreciated - The heads are on the work table, ready to assemble to the short block.
    Thanks for your help, Paul TK

  2. #2
    Speedster Member
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    You want to use a positive seal. The unbrella design will only stay stuck to the highest point on the valve stem. Make sure the valve guide clearances are correct especially on the exhaust valve.
    Start and Stage Your Studebakers

  3. #3
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    As usual, most everyone will have an opinion, my info is from a long history and many engines, not just one or two..

    Personally, espicially on a street car...I would use a plain ol stock type umbrella seal. Just like most other engines on the road.
    Depending on exactly how tight the guides are...they REALLY need the oil on the street. If the guide/stem is on the tight side, "no seal might be good. If they are a little looser, the rubber umbrella will work just fine.
    Hopefully the guides at least have a partial depth, sprial groove in them to distribute some oil into the lower part of the guide.. I've both seen and heard of bronzes seizing on the street.

    Hell...most drag racers I know...some use no seals on either valve, and no one I know uses seals on the exhaust stems.

    As Jack says...your engine, your money.

    Mike

  4. #4
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    Thanks - My thoughts also up to now. The main arguement against the positive seals (so far) is from the tech rep of the manuf. of the ones I bought. He basically said not to use the pos. seals unless there is an over abundance of oil supply, such as from a high volume oil pump that would flood the valve guides.
    The umbrellas are in it now - May just leave them - Would not be much add'l work to change later (engine in the car) rather than now.
    Thanks again, Paul TK

  5. #5
    President Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    I have never used anything but the regular old umbrella seals, and never had a problem. They don't do anything measurable for a Stude, but are good for machinist's business, in that it takes much longer to install them correctly. Also, have ran bronze guides w/o any problems. If one were ever a problem, I's suspect improper installation, i.e. not enough clearance, or inferior material.

  6. #6
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    Joe,
    Thanks for the info. just to be sure i understand correctly, have you used the umbrella seals w/ the bronze guides? Or, the positive seals? Or, no seals at all w/ the bronze guides/
    Thanks again, paul TK

  7. #7
    President Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Hi Paul,
    Have always used only the umbrella seals, with Stude V8s and regular guides, and with Packard V8s and bronze sleeved guides. Never a problem. Matter of fact, the last Stude V8 I rebuilt and placed into service about 13 months & 13,000 miles ago, now has 4500 miles since last oil change, and is not yet a quart low !

  8. #8
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    Joe,
    On the bronze guides (Packard) - Did you have the top of the guide tapered (as w/ the stock steel guide) or did you use it w/ a flat top for positive seals (as w/ the ones I have)??
    Thanks again for you help and good humor in responding, Paul TK

  9. #9
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    In a technical discussion, agreeing upon terminology is critical to communication.

    There are two types of bronze guides:

    1. The original Studebaker iron guide is driven out and a complete bronze guide, 9/16" OD and 11/32" ID is driven in and reamed to size.
    (With Packard V8s not having removeable guides, the guide is bored out of the head and a 5/8" OD and 3/8" ID bronze quide is pressed in and reamed to size.)

    2. The existing guide is left in place, but reamed oversize ID, a K-Line guide liner, a thin bronze sleeve, is swaged in and reamed to size.

    Are we discussing complete replacement guides or liners?

    jack vines
    PackardV8

  10. #10
    President Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Keller View Post
    Joe,
    On the bronze guides (Packard) - Did you have the top of the guide tapered (as w/ the stock steel guide) or did you use it w/ a flat top for positive seals (as w/ the ones I have)??
    Thanks again for you help and good humor in responding, Paul TK
    Hi Paul,
    No special provisions whatsoever with the valve guides. Just remove the old seal, then slip the new seal in place, and reassemble the valve & spring assembly. Then repeat 15 times

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