Electrical: Starter ??

[kmac530]

So I had a frozen up starter on my motor when I bought my truck. I bought a good starter from Bob K. It tested out good. I exchanged my nose cone and gear... all simple stuff. I get the motor all back together, crazy excited to crank it over, prime the oil pump and go to crank it.....nothing. Solenoid clicks on the firewall, brand new and a good one. I jump it directly to the battery...nothing.
I unbolt it and pull it out some, just in case it is binding on the flywheel or something, jump it straight to the battery...still nada, zip, zero, zilch. It was not a bad starter, I had it tested when I got it from Bob K. at a good AP store on a load tester machine.

Anyway, I pull it out and go to take it apart, and the end cap is frozen onto the shaft. There is no bushing is the end cap. Just steel shaft, on steel cap. It is so frozen on, I have to use a drift punch and a 32 oz hammer and beat the cap off of the shaft. There is some material transfer between the 2 pieces.

After cleaning everything up with a dremel and some emery cloth, I put it back together, but before testing it, I am inspecting the whole thing for a possible WHY, and I notice there some movement longitudinally on the shaft. First off, YES, I DO have the washer in there between the end cap and the armature.

What I notice is that there is a small groove on the end of the armature shaft just before the cone end bushing.
Is that groove supposed to have a snap ring or one of those round spring ring thingies?

I looked in all of my starter pieces from my other dismantled starter and I do not see one of those in my spare parts and pieces. I think there was one down inside the ratcheting mechanism and gear retainer area, but I can not remember for sure.

Any help on if there is supposed to be one just inside the nose cone would be appreciated.

[jackb]

no.....no snap ring (I guess you don't have a shop manual)...and there should be some long movement in the shaft.....Are you mixing/matching 6V w/ 12V ?? If you correctly bench tested the starter before install...your problem must be between the starter gear and ring gear. What shape is your ring gear in ? Can you look at the teeth through the starter mounting opening. If you see worn teeth-you have your problem...probably...Now...does the engine turn by fan belt or socket on crank? ......Did the engine run before the starter woes ? If so, you're back to mis-alignment between gears.....How about both engine and b'housing dialed in correctly and within spec....?

[kmac530]

Roughly how much movement lengthiwse ? 0.060"? 0.100"? 0.010?
It is enough that if I tip the starter nose down, then I rock it back nose up there is a small clunk...NOT a thud or big bang, but a hearable clunk. I would say 0.025-0.050" ish.
The manual, and yes, once again I have a manual and I use it, they are not always clear and assume too much at times and the drawings are horrible!
My parts book shows some starters have a small washer on the step of the shaft just inside of the nose cone and some it does not show it, hence the reason for my question.

Ring gear is good, all 6V parts, bendix gear is good, fit in bell is good, Motor turns fine as this is a fresh unfired rebuild, No idea if the engine ran, it sat for 35 years, got pulled out and a 289 put in, but using the same flywheel that matched the starter and bell housing, engine and BH alignment were checked and within a safe spec.

It is as if when I had it bench tested it got hot on the shaft/end plate area and when we stopped spinning it, it welded or froze or rusted them together somehow.

[tbirdtbird]

"There is no bushing in the end cap"
Something's not right
there has to be a bronze or oilite bushing in there, never steel on steel

keep us posted

[kmac530]

There is a bushing in the nose cone but I can not see one on either end cap I have. There is a hole drilled in the end cap with an oiler cup and some fiber wading in there.

Definately NOT bronze like the nose cone bush. I roughed it up with some emery and it looked and felt like steel, and the transfered material onto the shaft was as hard as steel. What is oilite?

Anyway, I went digging around and found a small thin thrust washer in my other starter stuff, I installed it on the arm shaft end between the step on the shaft and the nose cone, now the shaft feels like it has the right amount of play longitudeinally. Tiny click when I tip it, not a clunk. Some play movement but only a few thousandths I would say.

So now that the end play issue is solved, now I just need to try to figure out why it welded itself together. There is definately not enough play horizontally between the shaft and end cap to allow for a bushing without machining one or the other to make room. I knocked out the plug in the end cap and I can not see any bushing. The fit between the shaft and the cap seems fine not that I removed the transfered material...I guess I will just give it a try and see what happens tomorrow....to cold and it looks like it is gonna start raining here...I know it is not REALLY cold, but to us, 54* and windy is COLD.

Any bushing, oilite, possible reasons for welding together, or any other info would be appreciated overnight so before I install it in the morning I can read up.

Again to clarify, the tolerance on the shaft is, and was fine. If the fit was not right the armature would have moved to one side or the other and drew too many amps when I load tested the starter.
Could the fact that I did not lube the shaft when I reassembled it and then ran it on the load tester dry have caused the welding issue?
Could the fact that I possibly ran it without the front thrust washer and the shaft may have wandered during the test caused the welding?

[tbirdtbird]

Oilite is brass or bronze with voids to hold lubrication

http://www.oilite.com/

Personally I have to wonder if the end cap is the correct one if there is no room for a bushing.
I also have to wonder if somehow there is a ground problem with that starter whereby the ground path was thru the end cap and the shaft. Sounds weird, but then your problem is weird
"Could the fact that I did not lube the shaft when I reassembled it and then ran it on the load tester dry have caused the welding issue?
Could the fact that I possibly ran it without the front thrust washer and the shaft may have wandered during the test caused the welding?"
Well the shaft should be lubed with Lubriplate or any good white grease but other than that I do not think you contributed to this problem. Can't imagine this is a thrust washer problem at all.

Are the brushes mounted on the end cap itself or mounted to the cylindrical housing? If to the end cap, the grounded brushes follow a ground path back to the battery as follows: via contact of the end cap with the cylindrical body, and then to the nose casting, and via the 2 long bolts that hold the end cap on, (and thus to the nose casting). Once at the nose casting, to the block via physical contact of the nose piece to the bell housing, and also the starter bolts to the bell housing. Technically all these places are electrical connections tho we don't think of it that way, so be sure they are all clean and rust free and paint free.

The initial assembly lube on each end of a starter shaft should be white lithium grease. Years ago I worked at a starter-generator-regulator shop, of course these shops are long gone.

[kmac530]

I decided to pull both starter I have back apart and combine them into one with the best looking components....I think I have a good one now here.
Heading out in the cold to give it a try...let you all know asap...
thanks as always for the input and help...you folks are great.