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Operating B.W. T86E 3-speed O.D.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ron Dame View Post
    Guess I'm confused..a state I am very familiar with. If you have no electrical contact to move the solenoid, how could it go into overdrive in reverse? I guess I really did not understand the function of the rail and thought it was just an anachronism that really did nothing anymore.
    Ron, the OD shift rail engages and disengages the sun gear, which effectively either enables or locks out the overdrive function. The OD shift rail can be moved two ways. One is by using the OD control/cable that mounts on the dash; if you pull this control out all the way, the OD is locked out, and if you push it in, the OD is enabled. The internal shift linkage does the same thing - when the tranny is shifted to reverse, the linkage pushes the OD shift rail back and locks it out, just the same as if you would have pulled the OD control on the dash out. It really does not have anything to do with the solenoid. If the OD is not locked out, the vehicle will not back up because the sprag clutch will not rotate in the opposite direction.

    Take a look at gordr's post/pictures here, it should help you visualize it: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...school+shifter
    Last edited by r1lark; 02-24-2012, 05:54 PM. Reason: spelin'
    Paul
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: www.studebakerskytop.com

    Comment


    • #17
      After getting the 1st/rev sliding gear flipped around, I've been working on getting the OD shift rail to move back when the trans is put into Rev. Here's where I am:
      Here's a column shift 1st/Rev shift fork in stock configuration. When the gear is moved by the top-loader shift fork, if this fork is also installed, it will move too, causing the column-shift shift arm (and cam) to rotate and actually push back on the shift rail. But like this it's too big to fit on the gear along with the top-loader shift fork. In fact I'll have to grind on both of them to get them to fit.
      Click image for larger version

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      Here I've got the column fork ground down (cooling it in ice water as I ground on it, so as not to anneal it), and I've installed it. Next I'll grind down the top-loader shift fork until they will both fit on that gear, and not bump into each other while going through neutral position.

      Click image for larger version

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      Last edited by rrausch; 02-26-2012, 01:53 PM. Reason: clarification
      1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
      1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
      Robert Rausch

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      • #18
        Oops. After looking at Gary Ash's website, I see where he recommends grinding off about 1/3 of that shift fork. I probably only ground off about a 5th or so. So out she comes yet again! However, I'd rather have to R&R this fork a few times than grind off TOO MUCH.
        1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
        1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
        Robert Rausch

        Comment


        • #19
          The link did not work, but I did not think about how that sprag clutch would grab in reverse.

          Originally posted by r1lark View Post
          Ron, the OD shift rail engages and disengages the sun gear, which effectively either enables or locks out the overdrive function. The OD shift rail can be moved two ways. One is by using the OD control/cable that mounts on the dash; if you pull this control out all the way, the OD is locked out, and if you push it in, the OD is enabled. The internal shift linkage does the same thing - when the tranny is shifted to reverse, the linkage pushes the OD shift rail back and locks it out, just the same as if you would have pulled the OD control on the dash out. It really does not have anything to do with the solenoid. If the OD is not locked out, the vehicle will not back up because the sprag clutch will not rotate in the opposite direction.

          Take a look at gordr's post/pictures here, it should help you visualize it: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...school+shifter
          Ron Dame
          '63 Champ

          Comment


          • #20
            (Link didn't work for me either)

            OK, it's looking better after some more grinding:

            Click image for larger version

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            And it's riding lower in the collar so the top-loader shift fork can get a more secure grab on the gear in order to shift it.

            Click image for larger version

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            1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
            1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
            Robert Rausch

            Comment


            • #21
              we appreciate the extra pix and explanation you are doing. I need all the details i can get 'cause i want to do this myself at some point
              keep up the good work
              1947 M5 under restoration
              a bunch of non-Stude stuff

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ron Dame View Post
                The link did not work, but I did not think about how that sprag clutch would grab in reverse.
                Try this: http://http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?13581-Old-School-Floor-Shifter-for-T86-part-one.&highlight=old-school+shifter
                Paul
                Winston-Salem, NC
                Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: www.studebakerskytop.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Thanks tbirdbird! The more I get into it, the easier it becomes.

                  I found an amusing detail on the T90 shifter I'm using on this T-86 trans. Take a look at this welch plug which some long-ago rebuilder installed into the shift-pin bore.
                  Hmmmm... at least Bob, who owns the truck this is going into, will never be broke!
                  Click image for larger version

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                  1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
                  1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
                  Robert Rausch

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gordr View Post
                    BTW, Gord's converted T86 worked PERFECTLY in the Ute. Here's one of the first drives. Gord handling the camera work...

                    Dick Steinkamp
                    Bellingham, WA

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                    • #25
                      Gorgeous car! Great job on the installation. It looks and sounds very, very well done.
                      Last edited by rrausch; 02-26-2012, 08:06 PM.
                      1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
                      1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
                      Robert Rausch

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        OK, here's how I hooked up 1st/Rev gear so that when shifting to Rev. it does disconnect the O.D.

                        I did measure the gear travel on the mainshaft, and the throw of the 1st/Rev shift fork on the top-loader shifter. Both measurements were 1&5/8ths. So I figured it would work OK and shift that gear through all three positions (Rev.-Neutral-1st) just fine.

                        I had to pull the column shift-fork (the one inside the trans) once again and grind it down some more, and that meant pulling the OD/mainshaft out of the trans case again. I'm getting pretty good at this--it was about the 7th time R&R'd it on this trans, but I had to, as I don't have a borescope, and I like things to work well.

                        And so I ground on the old column 1st/Rev shift-fork some more, and I took it down to about 60%. It still rides in the collar on the 1st/Rev gear just fine in all three positions--Rev/Neutral/1st. Then I started grinding on the top-loader 1st/Rev shift fork, and I took it down a bit more on it's left side.

                        Here it is in it's final shape. (The shift fork to the side is the 2nd/3rd fork)
                        Click image for larger version

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                        I punched out the roll-pin that positioned the 2nd/3rd shift fork in the top loader shifter pin and temporarily removed the 2nd/3rd shift fork.
                        Here's a better picture:
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                        Notice the three detents on the end of that shifter pin--those detents position 2nd, Neutral, and 3rd gear. The other pin also has three detents for 1st, Neutral and Rev.
                        Now then I took the T90 shifter over to my trans and set it in position so that both the inside shift fork and the T90 shift fork were riding in the collar of the 1st/Rev gear. I shifted the trans using the 1st/Rev shift lever on the side of the trans, which I had deliberately left in place for this purpose. I shifted it into Rev and then into Neutral and then into 1st. If the shift forks are going to bump into each other they will do it when that gear is shifted into the Neutral position--that's when the inside shift fork pivots to it's highest point. At that point they are the closest together. Sure enough, when I shifted that gear into Neutral the top-loader housing did get bumped upward about 1/16th or so. It wasn't much, but you don't want them making ANY contact. So I pulled the shifter off the trans and ground some more on the top-loader 1st/Rev shift fork. I took off a little more than 1/16th and took it back to the trans and tested it again--this time it didn't move at all when I shifted the trans from Rev through Neutral to 1st. When shifted between 1st and Rev. the O.D. lever on the side of the O.D. case does move as it should. Success!

                        Here's a picture after the test. You can see the shift arm on the side of the trans that I used to manipulate 1st/Rev gear through its paces.
                        Click image for larger version

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                        Next thing is I have to get 2nd/3rd shifting correctly. That's on the agenda for this coming week.
                        Last edited by rrausch; 02-26-2012, 08:11 PM. Reason: clarification
                        1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
                        1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
                        Robert Rausch

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          When you are done if you could post pics of the forks side by side with the untouched forks that would help us all understand just how much has to be ground off. So far your explanation is very clear for someone who has never done this
                          1947 M5 under restoration
                          a bunch of non-Stude stuff

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thanks tbird!

                            How much you grind off can vary. What's important is that the top loader shift fork sit in the collar deep enough to securely shift that gear forward and back. The small inside shift fork, coming from the side, only has to push back on the O.D. rail, so it can be ground down quite a bit. I just ground on the inside shift fork first and using Gary Ash's approximation, I took it down to a little over half it's original width. After I took this picture I ground on it some more.
                            Click image for larger version

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                            Then I installed the inside shift fork, and installed the mainshaft and O.D. unit, and just kept grinding on the top-loader shift fork until it fit into the collar without touching the other shift fork. Since you're running two shift forks in the same collar on the 1st/Rev gear, you have to grind them both down, but the one that gets ground down the least is the one that actually moves the gear.
                            Last edited by rrausch; 02-27-2012, 12:59 AM. Reason: clarification
                            1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
                            1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
                            Robert Rausch

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I see what you are doing, and I have heard of it being done this way before. Can I suggest that you remove the detent assembly and second-high shift quadrant from the case before final assembly? They way you have it now, you have to overcome two detents to shift into either low or reverse, and the force to overcome the second one has to be transmitted by the cut-down shift forks. I'm sure it will shift easier that way.
                              Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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                              • #30
                                That's a good idea gordr. Thanks for that.

                                Once the inside shift fork had been cut down, and installed, I then used the case's detent to position the 1st/Rev gear in Neutral. And then I also positioned the top-loader shifter in it's Neutral detent. Then I installed it, and slipped the shift fork into the collar and looked to see if the 6 mounting holes on the top shifter lined up with the 6 holes on the case. They lined up perfectly, so I knew that the 1st/Rev gear would shift just fine.

                                Now I'll do that same for 2nd/3rd, and when I'm done then I'll pull the detents from the case.
                                1953 Chev. 210 Convertible, 261 6cyl w/Offy dual intake (But I always did love Studebakers!)
                                1995 Dodge/Cummins Pickup, 250 HP, 620 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, ATS trans.
                                Robert Rausch

                                Comment

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