Front Crankshaft Seal Modification Problem

[mjeansonne]

We are attempting to use the North Carolina recommendation for replacing the front seal, using the National (Federal Mogul) seal and sleeve. After removing material from the seal carrier, the rubber seal now hits the seal retainer. This results in deformation of the rubber seal so that it doesn't seal around the vibration damper hub. Should we have the seal retainer machined now so that the retainer misses the rubber seal itself? Please help.

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[sbca96]

I have not done this mod yet myself .. is this the place you found it?

http://www.ncsdc.com/TechnicalPages/TimingSealConversion/TimingSeal.html

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

[mjeansonne]

Yep, that's the place!!

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[JDP]

I bought my seal kit from Fairborn Studebaker and did not have that problem, nor do I recall the Readisleeve.

JDP/Maryland


63 GT R2
63 Avanti R1
63 Daytona convert
63 Lark 2 door
62 Lark 2 door
60 Lark HT-60Hawk
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

[StudeRich]

We tried a redi sleeve .... ONCE.

[Chucks Stude]

Are you all saying that the National seal and redi-sleave combo do not work?
I just got mine from NAPA.com, and have not yet torn into it. Am I going to have a problem?

[55studeman]

What do you mean by seal retainer? Do you mean the retainer of the timming cover that holds the seal itself OR do you mean the "retainer" also called the "installation rim" that is on the redi-sleeve?

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[DEEPNHOCK]

Did you remove the curved 'installation flange' of the Redi-Sleeve?

There should be a small notched groove right by the edge of the flat surface right where the curve starts. This is the 'tear point'. You grap the outer edge of the curved flange and twist the flange with a pair of needle nosed pliers until it tears and you peel the flange part off. Is this what you say was interfering with the seal? A standard redi-sleeve is only .011" thick, so .022" should be in the allowable deformation range of a seal lip.
Here's some redi-sleeve info:

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/pdf/NSCInfoSection.pdf

Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by mjeansonne

We are attempting to use the North Carolina recommendation for replacing the front seal, using the National (Federal Mogul) seal and sleeve. After removing material from the seal carrier, the rubber seal now hits the seal retainer. This results in deformation of the rubber seal so that it doesn't seal around the vibration damper hub. Should we have the seal retainer machined now so that the retainer misses the rubber seal itself? Please help.

Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

[mjeansonne]

Thanks all for such prompt replies!!!

When I speak of retainer, I am talking about the retainer that is attached to the timing cover and holds the old felt seal in. The new seal's metal carrier was too thick... so I trimmed it down so that it was flush with the seal hole in the timing cover... thus when you replace the seal retainer and tighten it down, there is deformation of the rubber seal itself.

Was there a gasket between the timing cover and the retainer (or should there be now)?

Jeff. No I didn't remove the "installation flange"... yet. That is not what is causing the deformation.

But, what I am proposing to remove is the 'curved' part of the retainer that goes around the crankshaft.


Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

[DEEPNHOCK]

OK, I understand you better now.
I do not know what seal number you are using, but be aware that there are multiple part numbers for a lip type seal with that OD and ID. The different numbers can mean seal material (Viton, Nitrile, etc.), different case style, and a diffetent lip style. Don't panic because your number has a case that is too wide. Ask for a seal with a thinner case. I would suggest sticking to a nitrile rubber seal and stay away from Viton, as Viton is quite aggressive in a wet environment, which a front cover can get exposed to from time to time.
'If' the flange of the Redi-Sleeve is flush against the crank flange with no protuberance, and the inner radius does not interfere with the seal, then you might be able to leave it alone. But if it sticks out the least little bit, it needs to be removed, as it would end up being an oil slinger and would prevent oil from getting up to, and lubricating the front seal lip.
And yes, there was a thin paper gasket between the retainer and the front cover. (at least there was on the last few I took apart. They were morked up and had to be replaced)
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by mjeansonne

Thanks all for such prompt replies!!!

When I speak of retainer, I am talking about the retainer that is attached to the timing cover and holds the old felt seal in. The new seal's metal carrier was too thick... so I trimmed it down so that it was flush with the seal hole in the timing cover... thus when you replace the seal retainer and tighten it down, there is deformation of the rubber seal itself.

Was there a gasket between the timing cover and the retainer (or should there be now)?

Jeff. No I didn't remove the "installation flange"... yet. That is not what is causing the deformation.

But, what I am proposing to remove is the 'curved' part of the retainer that goes around the crankshaft.


Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

[gordr]

If the new seal is a press fit into the timing cover, you don't need the retainer plate. The retainer plate is a feature of the FELT seal design, and is not needed with a neoprene lip seal. Brand X engines using neoprene seals don't use retainers.

Now if this conversion calls for an oddball seal that does not fit the timing cover properly, then maybe the retainer is needed.

Ingvar Vik used to do this conversion, and he machined the timing cover to accept a standard seal, IIRC.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[kamzack]

My 25 cents worth,
Over the years I too have tried the neoprene seals with the shim on the out side perimeter inside the seal housing and sleeve. They work good. I've also had good success with the felt. To get max life out of the felt, It should be thorouhly and completely soaked in motor oil. The next thing is to leave the timeing case cover bolts loose until hub is installed. This allows seal to center itself on the hub. This a step that's sometimes overlooked and will allow oil to excape both rubber seal and felt. I've gotten long distances from both and my Studes have never been weekend drivers, but dailies and mostly long distances.
Hope this helps,
Kim

[StudeRich]

That's the prob with these "conversion kits" the neoprene lip seal does NOT fit! And YES it needs the retainer to hold it. Only the Ingvar Vic machined hub and timing cover actually WORK!
Just this week we re-sealed my '62 Transtar's 289 by removing the "modern seal conversion kit". In the early 1990's I had purchased the kit from someone in Arizona with the strip of aluminum beer can, the seal and the redi-sleeve. That was it's prob also, it did NOT fit between the "retainer" and the cover. In 1998 it was installed and gasket sealer was used to seal it to the cover, but it did NOT work and it leaked. So we simply left the ready-sleeve in place and put in the original type felt seal. Unless you have excessive blow-by, they don't leak anyway!

quote:Originally posted by gordr

If the new seal is a press fit into the timing cover, you don't need the retainer plate.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

[64V-K7]

I used one of those seal/redi-sleeve combos back in 2001. The same problem arose as the seal was thicker than the area where the felt used to reside.
I peened the body of the seal over until it fit. Just take your time and use light force. It wasn't a big deal

Here's the page on it...

http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Oilseal2/oilseal.html

Bob Johnstone

[dclewallen]

Now I'm concerned. I've also done the seal/redisleeve conversion on my 289 [that has yet to be installed]. After I peened the metal lip of the seal there was no clearence for the aluminum shims? It appeared to be tightly centered so I just put some silicone under and around it and assembled it. I'm hoping for the best.

Darryl C. Lewallen Clarkesville, Ga.