Rack and Pinion Steering

[PackardV8]

We've beaten this poor R&P dead horse far too many times. For whatever reason, few want to rebuild the original suspension. It takes great skill and lots of money to improve on the Stude suspension. I've seen far more cars harmed than helped by Nova/Mustang II front clips and R&P conversion attempts.

Packard sold lots of cars with the slogan, "Ask the man who owns one." Most of us will always defend our decisions and our investments as good ones. Never believe everything told you by someone who has just sunk huge money into modifying his Stude suspension. He's going to want to believe it vastly improved the car and he's going to want to convince you also. Do your own research. Spend the time and money to go and drive a couple of cars with the completely rebuilt and upgraded stock system, then go drive the best conversions you can find. Promise you, it will be a revelation.

And did metion that he had a couple of C/K cars in his day, and that they had terrible steering. But some of the purists on the forum have made it sound like there is nothing wrong with Studebaker system?

Take any 50-60 year old car, for 150k miles run the six tie rod ends, a bell crank with bushings and a cheap marginal steering box where the oil seal failed years before, kingpins with bushings, have it go through who knows how many owners who didn't even know or care there were grease fittings on all those parts. Then, you'll have terrible steering, no matter what the make.

Drive a C/K with ALL new suspension parts, rebuilt steering box, gas shocks, radial tires on 6" rims, stiffer front and rear sway bar and a professional alignment. The steering and front and rear suspension will be better than OK for today's street driving.

jack vines

[junior]

I want to put an 86 Corvette (C4) in my Hawk and leave Sandi's stock?? But never having driven a C/K car or even ridden in one I am in the dark here.
Brian

Hey Brian, I would have to say that if you want your car to handle and feel like it's 50 years old then stick with the Stude system as there is really nothing wrong with it and it is factory engineered, basic and strong... however in your case, you seem to have the equipment, space and ability to install the C4 system so go for it. It will bring the car up to a modern standard of steering feel, braking ability, and comfort, let alone the 'wow' factor of how it will look. In my case I stuck with stock because I don't have the equipment and ability to swap in a more modern system, and my car steers and feels exactly how old it really is. If I had my choice I would go modern. If I was in Westbank with my car I'd let you take it for a spin so you would have an easier time deciding what to do...is there anybody's c/k you can 'test drive'. ps, didn't make it to BC this summer as I was sentenced to a 7 week vacation in Meleka Malaysia (poor me) regards, Junior

[junior]

We've beaten this poor R&P dead horse far too many times. For whatever reason, few want to rebuild the original suspension. It takes great skill and lots of money to improve on the Stude suspension. I've seen far more cars harmed than helped by Nova/Mustang II front clips and R&P conversion attempts.



Drive a C/K with ALL new suspension parts, rebuilt steering box, gas shocks, radial tires on 6" rims, stiffer front and rear sway bar and a professional alignment. The steering and front and rear suspension will be better than OK for today's street driving.

jack vines

Jack, you bring up some good and important points. I have done the research and read all previous posts on c/k r&p steering for the last 2 years and would have to agree that the subject has been beat to death, but c/k owners continue to ask the question because they are convinced that there is a better alternative to the Stude steering. I have to agree with you that there is nothing wrong with stock steering on a completely rebuilt system for a street driven car, however I venture to say that a properly installed C4 suspension would still be a better choice, the key words here being 'properly installed' meaning keeping the same track, alignment specs, relative spring rate etc. as the Chevy engineers designed for the Vette, would be better than the stock Stude system. Such a conversion would not be cheap, and is not within ability of the typical Stude owner. In Brian's case, I believe he already has the Vette suspension and he has the equipment and know how to install it, plus his car is being built as a modified with ZZ4 SBC, 6 speed, Ford 9" etc, so the C4 front end would complement the build, but as stated it is not a conversion for most folks
As much as I would love to have a r&p system in my 54 coupe, I have decided to stay with a completely rebuilt stock system with Turner Brakes. I would advoacate as others have for the Saginaw box (which my car has). This decision was based on information afforded to me by this forum with insightful input from others such as yourself.... Slick Street Conversion looks easy but the jury is out on the bumpsteer issue, nova clip has no real advantage in the steering dept., mustang II is over-rated and was never designed as a performance suspension and reported to be too light in the duty dept, and the center steer GM racks seems reasonable at first but still does not maintain stock Stude geometry, plus once again takes more skill to install than I beleive I have given the fact I'm not willing to take the safety risk involved of me fabbing my own mounts. Thanks for your input, your thoughts are well grounded and very realistic. Regards, Junior.

[skyway]

IMHO, The best reasonably priced improvment for a correctly rebuilt C/K front suspension, is to replace the original Ross steering box, with a Saginaw unit from a late Lark type. Bolt up the Saginaw using the 2 bolt holes in the frame that match, and then use the nonmatching hole in the Saginaw as the template to drill a new 3rd hole thru the frame.

If you leave the Lark steering shaft as is you get that straight armed, European, driving experience. Or you can do some welding to achieve the correct length.

[PackardV8]

Glad you concur:

I have to agree with you that there is nothing wrong with stock steering on a completely rebuilt system for a street driven car,

Hard to disagree with this:

I venture to say that a properly installed C4 suspension would still be a better choice, the key words here being 'properly installed' meaning keeping the same track, alignment specs, relative spring rate etc. as the Chevy engineers designed for the Vette, would be better than the stock Stude system. Such a conversion would not be cheap, and is not within ability of the typical Stude owner.

Yes, taking the Stude C/K sheetmetal and installing it on a lengthened Corvette C4 chassis would result in a better handling car. As you said, how many CASOs have the talent or the wallet to do that?

IMHO, The best reasonably priced improvment for a correctly rebuilt C/K front suspension, is to replace the original Ross steering box, with a Saginaw unit from a late Lark type.

Yes, agree, the Ross steering gear is crap and the one Stude piece which should definitely be replaced. Your description is clear and concise.

jack vines

[woodysrods]

Hi Jack & Junior
Thanks for your thoughts. I am trying to get as much imput as I possibly can before I start cutting. I do have two Hawk projects on the go at once, and I plan for them both to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. But, I want both of them to be as driveable as possible. Junior Thank You for the vote of confidence! Yes I have installed a number of Corvette front ends in various vehicles in the past including a 50 Studebaker Bullet Nose. And had always planned to use one in My Hawk project. My front end of choice is the 86 C4 front end of which I have one I purchase back in 1995. They were going for $1500.00 each back then, I was buying the 2 at a time for $2500.00/pr. I saved this one all these years because it was the best one I ever saw. Now in the Bullet nose I did I used air bags for front and rear suspension. But I am not a fan of air ride myself. I prefer coils or coil overs.(stock corvette transverse spring is too soft) Although on the first test drive of the 50, I drove it downhill on a narrow winedy road, and I remember yelling WOW out load as we negotiated the corners. Handled like a new BMW! I will fabricate a new front x meber to mount the corvette parts on, as the stock corvette x member is real ugly. Now Jack on the 61 I am building for my wife Sandi. I hope to keep this car stock...but restarted this thread, not to beat a dead horse, but to get everyones thoughts and experience with a rear mounted, centre steer rack on a C/K. Still waiting to hear from Jerry! Please chime in Jerry, as I like what I see when looking at your stuff. And I am going to reverse open the hoods on both our Hawks. Don't need that permanent scar on my forehead.
And Jack, am I to assume all C/K's 56 to61 used the Ross box rather than the Saginaw box??
Brian

[woodysrods]

Already have the Turner brake conversion brakes and Dual master mount for Sandi's 61. Did't get a lot of feedback on my transmission question. She definitely wants to keep hers an Automatic and I believe ours works fine, but where do you stop. Is the GM 200R conversion something I should be considering? I have a 700R 4 in my 46 M.
Brian

[Bob Andrews]

Brian, re: Jerry's, I know he hasn't driven it yet. The car is not finished or running yet, and is on hold while he works on another, the 'Rustobaker'.

Jack- as always you make a solid case based on experience. My reason for wanting to go R&P on my r2 Lark clone is more reliability. I could live with the stock steering, but really want power steering. If I go with factory I have that crappy valve with all the vulnerable lines going to it; with which I have had more than a few frustrating experiences in Fords over the years My thinking is, with R&P I do away with the reach rod, bell crank, convoluted antique assist valve design, and a few tie rod ends. A R&P is smaller, lighter, more efficient, and affords the opportunity to go with a smaller, modern, more efficient pump that would be easier to mount on an R2 engine. As a bonus, I get fresh parts that in my experience are mostly bulletproof. Is my thinking flawed?

My project is a clean sheet of paper, frame-up, so it will never be easier to do it. I'm going for a mostly stock-appearing Lark with R2/TREMEC 5-speed, P/S. The interior will be stock Daytona, including stock shifter handle. I've got a pretty good handle of what I want to have, but am still going back and forth on the power steering. I looked at the new electric P/S, but ruled them out since talking to the Flaming River rep at Carlisle who told me their long-term reliability has not been proven in street use. For $2500 I'm not willing to be the guinea pig So my options seem to be stock or R&P... or refresh the stock setup and go with no P/S. But since I want to do a car exactly as I want (which definitely includes P/S!), I too am still wrestling with this decision...

[sweetolbob]

Is the GM 200R conversion something I should be considering? I have a 700R 4 in my 46 M.
Brian

Brian

If the tranny in the car works well and it performs in a fashion that your wife would enjoy driving, then the conversion is a bit over the top.

For me, I converted my 83 Avanti to a 200R4 to take advantage of a 4:10 rear gearing to improve performance and still enjoy Freeway driving. I does that and more. The evenly spaced shifts seem to come at just the right spot in my car and with the 2000 RPM lockup converter it really comes off the line well.

The expense with a SBC is not bad in an Avanti because it,s basically buy the tranny and shorten the drive shaft. A lot more effort is required with a Stude engine.

Unless you need the upgrade, I spend the money elsewhere. In your truck, the 700R4 is probably great because it came with a rather low geared rear end.

Bob

[PackardV8]

Hi, Bob

The reasons everyone wants to change are as you describe

If I go with factory I have that crappy valve with all the vulnerable lines going to it; with which I have had more than a few frustrating experiences in Fords over the years My thinking is, with R&P I do away with the reach rod, bell crank, convoluted antique assist valve design, and a few tie rod ends. A R&P is smaller, lighter, more efficient, and affords the opportunity to go with a smaller, modern, more efficient pump that would be easier to mount on an R2 engine. As a bonus, I get fresh parts that in my experience are mostly bulletproof.

Is my thinking flawed?

No, you are right on. On a clean sheet build, new R&P steering is the way to go. However, as mentioned before, figuring how to do it right has been the challenge. Go and look under the cars with R&P, then drive them. I've not yet found a R&P conversion which is readily available, inexpensive to buy, easy to install, doesn't increase the turning circle, doesn't produce significant bump steer. Think about it - we've been hashing this for years now. If it were quick, easy, cheap and mechanically sound, they'd be in every Stude by now.

I've not found any R&P which works perfectly with the OEM suspension and linkage. If I were doing a clean sheet build, I'd seriously look at a complete C4 front subframe as Brian/woody's rods is doing.

The one thing CASOs with less money and talent than you and Brian should remember,

I get fresh parts that in my experience are mostly bulletproof.

A completely rebuilt Stude Saginaw steering and OEM suspension will have all fresh parts, will be bullet-proof and will work correctly. Too many shadetree R&P conversions or aftermarket clips don't.

jack vines

[woodysrods]

[QUOTE=sweetolbob;484648]
Hi Bob Yes I a have an 8" Ford in my M series with 3.80 gears. the 700R4 is behind a 305 SBC. Works great!
Brian

[sweetolbob]

Brian

At 70 MPH assuming 28" rear tires, you should be about 1800 RPM using the on-line calculator. Should be a great cruiser on the freeway and a good RPM to run a 305.

My 83 runs about 2350 at the same speed with the 355 SBC.

Again, remember the main difference between the 200R4 and the 700R4 are the 700 is a bigger/longer case and a lower first gear 3.08 vs 2.74. The 700R4 was probably a great choice for the truck as the 3.08 seems to be considered the area where below (less than numerically) the 700 is recommended, above it the 200r4.

Also remember the 700R4 is a lot easier to locate than it's cousin. Rebuild costs are about the same according to my guy that built the 200R4 for my Avanti.

Good Luck

Bob

[woodysrods]

Bob I don't have 3.08 gears. I have 3.80 gears and I don't have a speedo, but I do like too travel at 3000 RPM without the converter locked in.
Gas milage sucks!
Brian

[Paul Keller]

Jerry,
The Steeroids unit is shown in their kit for retro into a Mustang. Also, Total Control Products has a similar set-up for their multiple Ford products applications. The unit must be avail seperately from someone - It probably would not be produced only for the two above companies (Europe? Australia?). I have an inquiry in for pricing of the R&P unit only. Will update when some info is rec'd.
Also, thanks for all your help and guidance w/ this and silmilar projects. I never would have attempted the conversion if not for the likes of you, Bob johnston an all the others.

Best regards, Paul Keller

[Paul Keller]

R&P Cost

Total Contrl Products R&P (CTO, rear attachment) is quoted @ $2095.00 (!!!). The manual unit is a couple hundred less. It is worth taking a look at what they have; it would be the "right" way to go:

https://www.totalcontrolproducts.com

Paul Keller