Good point. So if the vacuum increases, the comp would probably lean the mixture. A lot of things to consider. I was just thinking maybe the designers of the FI system might have wanted to make avery part of it electronic. If there were any parts that could be simplified, it would sure be a lot easier on me. What kind of ignition system are you going to use? Do you have to have the mechanical and vacuum advances controlled by the comp? I'd like to be able to run a stand alone electronic ignition.
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My Street Version Port Injection for the '55
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A tiny update on my idea for my air intake sensor. The coolant sensor of course is already in the head, and I can use the exact same sensor in the air intake tract. So here is the air intake sensor and the corresponding coolant sensor, never mind the size of the thread, lol. Take your pick of what sensor suits yall for your application, lol.
The TPS sensor(the thing in the first pic with the red splotch hanging from the side of the throttle body)is already on the throttle body and the MAP sensor is on the brain box, so it looks like for now, all those sensor bases are covered.
Oh don't nobody freak about the thread, I'll do my best when the stuff comes in. Just bear in mind that patience is a virtue, and the postings may be infrequent. To put it one way, I'm in this deep with the parts and the interest between myself and the rest of the forum seems to be more than a minor passing, so it'd be a shame to let it just disappear.
I just got that last posting there:
Remember, we're talking about, ohh, 40 years of FI evolution, so this is a culmination of electronic parts over the years.
Megasquirt will allow for points, Pertronix, Mallory, EDIS, etc. The only thing is you have to instruct it in the program what type of system you are running. I'd like to use EDIS, where you have the crank sensor, trigger wheel, coil modules, etc. Depending on what happens I do have the AC Delco distributor that came from the 259 for that initial getgo once the engine is back in the car. The distributor is not much more than a fancy simple switch. The only caveat with a physical distributor I would be concerned with is timing. Megasquirt for that type of distributor needs to know where the timing is set at as it cannot read a mechanical device like it could with an EDIS system(I dunno about distributors like the Mallory but with the plain ol Prestolite, reading an electric switch operated by physically rotating the assembly where nothing plugs into the brainbox is difficult for a computer [)].
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
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1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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Is there no way to use an oem system? But it sure does sound like the Megasquirt system is the way to go to learn because they are so helpful. I just wonder if I can use the ford comp that came with a 5.0, somehow. The vacuum advance and mechanical advance seem to work really well, so I'd like to leave them out of the equation. I have a long way to go to understand all of this; I only know enough at this point to ask stupid questions...but that never stopped me before..ha.
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Well, with mine I'm a glutton for punishment, you should see some of my scratchbuilt and kitbashed railroad engines because I needed a locomotive role to fill on the train layout. Anyway, you can try with an OEM system. The system should be from a similar displacement engine with all of the injectors. I presume this will be a 170 cid engine so we're looking at pulling an EFI setup from a 2.8L engine. The Camaro, Celebrity, Cavalier, Citation, those with the tuned port injection for the 2.8L V6 engines may have what you need. You will need the injectors, computer, wiring harness, sensors on the engine. I'm not sure if they all sprayed at once in those years, but if they did, you may be able to mount the three like you have and wire them all together, or snip three of the injectors off. In this case the 5.0L may or may not work as those are some big injectors for a small engine, but since there are only three injectors spraying at the same time, the valve that opens will just suck the fuel in, without using an injector event. I would recommend an adjustable fuel regulator, fuel pump, and fuel rail for the application. The setup will also require knowing the pinouts for each of the wires on the harness from the computer. The other thing is the application will run off of the stock tune for the V6 Chevy(which is why I suggested getting a similar displacement engine FI, it may be less "buggy"). It may not know that its being used on a Studebaker engine, but it may react, whether positively or negatively, to these strange readings coming from this Chevy engine. Thats why I am going with the Megasquirt as it provides the flexibility for a custom tune. The only hitch is the learning curve.
Just remember too, with enough time, money, and patience, anything is possible when it comes to cars... [)]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]
1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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What's the size and model of the turbo? The model of the turbo can be determined by the model name or number on the compressor side. For instance I am using an AirResearch T3 and a Mitsubishi TD05. Technically I should be using two TD05's but I had this other turbo from something I picked up at a hamfest years ago, lol. Anyway with the model name, the compressor map can be located and the AR ratio can be acquired. These two items can tell you if the turbo is too small, or too big. The compressor map is a graph with a series of "islands" in it. The islands tell you how efficiently the turbo will work with your engine combination. The closer your point on the graph is to the smallest of the islands, the better the turbo will work or spool. The A/R ratio tells you the aspect relationship of the size between the exhaust turbine and the compressor turbine. If the A/R ratio is too big, the engine will slow to spool off the line(that dreaded turbo lag). If the A/R ratio is too small, you'll get great power off the line, but you'll run out of steam at the upper rpm band, which can subsequently damage the turbo. Ordinarily for a street application for our cars, the T3 should suffice, unless you feel adventurous about using a unique piece . If you find the model of the turbo, I can probably give some information on if the turbo is good to use.
This is where the information can usually be found, the model and name should be "tattooed" across the front of the compressor. The model is the alphanumeric code across the upper left side around the inlet of the compressor(TD05H):
For looking for turbo condition, this is what I did when I went salvage yard scrounging for the one for my truck. First check for damage on the outside of the turbo. Make sure it's all in one piece, its not chipped or broken, etc. Second, make sure that it wasn't in a spot where rainwater has collected in the compressor or exhaust areas. I found a turbo from a Thunderbird, the Turbocoupes I believe, and I thought it'd be great to get that turbo off. To my dismay, the hood was left open and the compressor side had part of pressure hose components missing that go to the air intake, which left whatever was left on the turbo pointed up. The water had collected in there and rusted up the turbo pretty bad, so I couldn't use it unless I wanted to rebuild it(I'll get to that in a minute). Then, check for the condition of the impeller on exhaust and intake sides. The TD05 I have had a chipped impeller, but fortunately I got a new bead blasted housing and impeller to replace it. If there's a chipped impeller, odds are something got in there, like a stone or rock, or a mishandled screwdriver, and damaged the the vanes. This of course needs to be replaced as it reduces the efficiency of the turbo. The last thing is, check for spin and endplay. If it doesn't spin with a little encouragement, it may be seized or oil may have coked the journal surfaces inside. This can come from either long use or shutting down a car too fast after a long trip. The endplay is how much does the impellers wiggle back and forth and side to side. There should be a little as when the shaft is oiled the oil functions like a cushion. If there is alot, like so much so that the impeller is getting into the walls, it will need to be rebuilt.
Rebuild kits, oh yes these are all over the place. Most of them its a few journal bushings, some snap rings, and some circular gaskets, or like a PS rebuild kit [)]. A number of the guys I know like to rebuild there's as soon as they get them from a salvage yard, so they have a turbo with new parts inside, which isn't a bad idea. I am a bit of a CASO in this respect where, if it works, hey thats great, if it don't, I won't pick it up. When it goes then I'll get the rebuild kit. This is one of the nice things about these over the Paxtons. I can undo the snap rings, seperate the sections out, replace things like oiling journals,1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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Did you just use JB weld to epoxy the injector bungs in? I have a 5.0 intake all cut up I could cut the bungs off of, but they're aluminum, going into that cast iron manifold; maybe I should use some sort of clamps too. I already have a turbo off a 84 ford V8 diesel truck; is that way too large?
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Yeah, that's JB weld. I pressed them in like you would with a valve guide and then ran the JB weld around the bungs thoroughly to seal them up. There's two ways one can go, weld them in or epoxy them in. I went the epoxy route, and made sure there weren't any gaps or cracks between the bungs and the manifold.
Is this the turbo from the Ford Diesel?
This would be the compressor map for it:
The turbo comes off of a 7.3L Diesel turbo [:O]
I crunched some quick numbers and at:
5000 rpm(presume redline for a 170)
10 lbs of boost(using a boost gauge to dial the wastegate in and out)
The turbo will hit the very lower part of the 79 percentage range for turbo efficiency at the center island.
Also at:
5000 rpm
14 lbs of boost
The turbo will hit smack dab in the lower portion of the 79 percent turbo efficiency range middle island
You can use it if this is the turbo. Ordinarily you will probably be in the lower part of the graph, and the outer islands(70-75 turbo efficiency percentage range roughly) if its street driven(3000 rpm or thereabouts) and around 7-10 psi. It is a little bit big(it came off of a 7L diesel [)]), but, it will be possible to use this turbo if you don't mind a little bit of lag, followed by a kick in the seat when it really starts to spool.
Fine print: These are rough numbers, do not take this as Gospel, your results may vary. Engine may suffer black smoke, spark plug fouling, piston blowing, tire marks, a sudden heartstopping intense glee from turbo spool, or immediate swearing at the heavens for performance glitches. See compressor map and turbo specifications for details [)]
Edit:
I forgot this but according to the almighty Google, these turbos are also ball bearing units. I dunno if yours is or not, but these have an improvement on the turbos I'm using as instead of using a standard bushing and oil to drive the impellers, you have a very smooooooooth spool as the impellers are floating on ball bearing races, and are being oiled. The downside can be these may be a little more expensive if the turbo goes bust, as the turbos are operating on a system thats machined to a little higher quality than a standard bushing unit.
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
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[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]
1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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Plain Brown: I've seen part of this post on the racing forum, and Tom Covington already posted a couple of my pictures of the Mass Flo unit I purchased(the modified lionel stone intake). I am making some slow progress putting together my project, which is a 53 with 289 and twin garret 2860RS turbos. I am keeping track of the cost, which is probably substantially more than I'd like, or what you are putting into the 55, but at the end of it all, I 'd be curious how you and I compare when it adds up. Outside of the up-front turbo costs, as opposed to junkyard dogs, I reckoned that even without taking into account the time factors, it was going to cost quite a bit after investing in injectors, and the megasquirt materials, and everything else. So, I'd be curious how things compare when, if ever, one of us gets close to running our contraption down the street.
I am about to mate the stude 289/299(r2+ cam, ross pistons, valves, alum flywheel, etc etc, ) to a T56 transmission, and will probably have it in the vehicle(just about finished painting the chassis) after new year's.
At that point, I can begin trying to fit in the turbos and downpipes. I suspect a big hurdle will be getting the upturned exhaust manifold(that I am going to try and use a s a 'log' style turbo mount) to fit up next to the Ross steering box - it is going to be real tight there. I have been thinking of trying a reversed R3 header instead, since they skive inwards at the middle, unlike the standard manifolds. Then I will start messing with the wiring harness/manifold, and engine management issues etc, and seeing if at all works out...
In regards to a prior post, my understanding is to put the O2 sensor about 14 inches after the turbo. thanks- m weiss
ok
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A tale of two Studebaker FI systems.... [)]
It might interesting to see the tally. There is a couple of hitches though. I am on a strict budget, so the parts come in one at a time. It may be weeks or months between acquiring all the necessary pieces, as money allows. It's a similar situation, I'm slowly getting all the parts and pieces together to put it together. I am also using Ebay as a great resource for gathering everything together. Everybody probably knows about "Oxygen Sensor for Studebaker vendors" on Ebay, to everybody's disgust. But I will buy from these guys for parts that may be a few bucks here, or a few bucks there, than compared to buying it over the counter, as they sell alot of the generic parts from the "Buy it Now" section in bulk with varying prices on the pieces, which so far has been a plus.
Oh yeah, I know it will be a situation where I'll be upside down in the car. It is also something of a peeve of mine, particularly when they would get mired in this on the Trains forum on price comparisons. You know "I wanna buy such and such engine", which is followed by "You don't want that, the such and such engine is cheaper but doesn't have the bells and whistles but has a much more prototypical finish blah blah blah". It's like geez, if you like it, and have the money, buy it and enjoy it, you know. I don't waffle as much as you can see, lol. Anyway, but I know I gotta look at the car and the hobby as a whole, and keep in mind, I'm in it for the fun of it. I also like to see if I can build my own stuff, I've kinda been like that since I was 14. Have something nobody else has sort of thing. But as they say, whatever floats your boat, lol. However, for Ebay if I can get items for a lower cost than what they normally retail for, I can use the leftover monies to put it into another part of the build . There is one thing to keep in mind between the two systems. You can probably just buy the intake manifold from the box, plop it onto the engine, wire in the injectors, compter, etc, without as much of the effort. LOL, if I had the money, I'd go that route just as easily. But I don't have as much of the money, but I got time, and I love playing with the machining tools I inherited from my grandparents. Anyway, this system, is more akin to that they provide a universal computer, and you have to do the rest, including the machining for injectors, drilling the fuel rails, etc. Basically it's a little above a salvage yard build, as thats where the parts usually originate.
After this is installed, I'll be happy to get the final score on everything that I bought. I know the big hurdle will be the brain box, relay box, and assorted cables. I also have a few luxuries I like to buy (somehow I can't pass up an LCDash, lol), but I'll leave that out as these aren't critical for operation.
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]
1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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It says A/R 60 on this turbo. I really want low end power and I don't care about sacrificing the top end. These little champs need it at the low end. I want to use a turbo that is pretty common, too, so anybody can put together a system like mine (if it works well enough) with cheap parts. Know of one that might be the right size that is more common in junkyards? Hey, I have a digital dash out of an 88 Cougar. Is that the type you're looking for?
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Oh no, thats alright about the dash, this is something extra diyautotune is selling. Ya hook it up to the computer and it spits out all information like boost, temp, AF ratio, etc. I'm still aways off from that stage yet, heck, I don't even have an interior to put this stuff into yet!![)] Basically the stuff that goes to the laptop screen can be read from this little screen.
Regarding your turbo, I'd be tempted to give that one a shot, because the A/R or trim size was similar to the T04E(if its the one I'm thinking of). Usually, the common turbo that is usually used for builds such as these from AMC to Zimmerman is the T3, followed by the T04E. The T3 is a pretty widely used turbo for stock and modified cars, and like Baskin Robbins, can come in many different flavors, trim sizes, and A/R ratios. To really get specific, this turbo can be found in Grand Nationals, Turbocoupes, 80's Chrysler products(check the K car section), early 80's Pontiac Firebirds ,late 80's Mustangs, Merkurs, Cougars, and a host of others. My AirResearch is a T3 from a early 80's Pontiac Firebird with an A/R that says its 42, so its probably smaller by a couple of sizes than yours.1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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Yeah, it will be used for half of the 289. Technically two td05's would be much more suitable as they came off of a vehicle that was 2.0L, but I looked into it and it is pretty close to the T3. I do have some ideas to balance the turbos out on both sides, but I would like to try it before I toss it [)]. Keep in mind too, the T3's were also used on the Chicken Hawk(excluding the extensive work done underneath though ) as well, so I shouldn't be too much worse off.
Edit:
To answer the question, not every T3 is built equally. The AirResearch T3 that was used on the Pontiac had a three point bolt pattern, so there will need to be similar bolt pattern on the flange.
This may help answer the question a little better about T3's all being the same, this was a high performance T3:
This is a T3 for an SVO Ford
As you can see, the application can call for a different bolt pattern.
The best way I can put it is, like the Paxtons that were clocked for each application, the bolt patterns are arranged for the most ideal application for the vehicle they are being used for. Now its not like every different car has a completely different bolt pattern. But the bolt pattern coincides with design of the exhaust manifold, design of the exhaust system, placement of parts under the hood, etc.1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)
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