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My Street Version Port Injection for the '55

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  • #16
    MSD has them they are $8.00 apiece. If you want I can look for a part no.

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    • #17
      I could only find sets of eight on Summit. So, yes, I would appreciate the part number.

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      • #18
        A little more on my little project with the '55 Commander. Over the past, oh, six months to a year I've been working on this car and the separate components here. What I would do is separate the car into separate projects. After I'm finished I will take the part and add it to the collection of stuff to go back to the car. I also try to keep things as systematic as possible, so say if it's fuel, I collect and restore all and any parts for that part of the car. It keeps the confusion down and helps me remember what is still needed to get done on the vehicle. At the moment I'm still collecting parts. I'm also out of work and the budget is running short so, the postings may or may not get longer between durations here. The car here and the trains are what keep my patience in check, well until I can't do more until the funding rolls in, but I digress.

        Here is where it started, these are 535976 stock heads that came from the 259. Following a couple of threads on this and the racing forum, I used a Dremel to hog these ports out. They have been gasket matched, had 1.7 rocker arms installed that I bought from Ted Harbit, and I did some cleaning, sanding, and polishing the valves up so they look pretty again. The intake manifold was also done in the same way. I did my own ccing and they first started out in the neighborhood of 62cc before I cleaned up the heads, and then 66cc's once I had finished. I went through and did valve area, intake, and exhaust manifolds(just cleaned these up), cleaned up the grunge, painted them black, and set them out on the shelf. This took at least a couple of weeks on and off





        Anyway, here is where the direction of this car is headed in. I was always impressed with the few twin turbo vehicles in the club here, but many of them are race only(my observation). I've seen Brand X's use twin turbos on the street for many years now, so I decided that's what I wanted to do with the '55. I wanted to construct a twin turbo, port injected, vehicle using common salvage yard parts and have it be able to be used on the street. Now at this point, some of you probably think I've lost it. I have experience with forced induction vehicles in this arena with the Lark and the truck and not a hint of trouble. Heck, the truck's system was constructed by learning how turbo systems work overall and putting theory into practice. So, before starting I had one turbo, an AirResearch T3 that I picked up at a hamfest for a few dollars that was gonna be converted for jet propulsion. The turbo, I was told came from a GM. I later learned that this looks like the turbo that went on the Pontiac 301's, or some of the last of their V8 lines in the early eighties. I love how well this thing spools but I wasn't thrilled when I learned what Pontiac's motivation was for asking AirResearch to do it. It was akin to "We want a turbo for the car, but we don't want the customer to be able to feel when the car goes into boost ". That sat on the shelf for a few years until this summer I got a td05, which is a second generation Eclipse turbo. This turbo was bought off of Ebay for a few dollars, and I had to disassemble it to replace a chipped compressor wheel with one that came in the box, along with a better looking sandblasted housing. The turbo had a sticking wastegate as well, so I had to do some bending so that the turbo can extend and retract without getting hung up. For a turbo this is bad news if this isn't working because the exhaust gas that is building pressure on the turbine has nowhere to vent if the flapper doesn't open. I also ported the exhaust side to the wastegate as these turbos are notorious for boost creep. Here are the two turbos I will be using.
        The AirResearch T3
        [IMG]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetr
        1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
        1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
        1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
        1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

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        • #19
          The epoxy in or weld in bungs are MSD P/N 2120 set of 8. Holley has P/N 534-83 sets of (4) $50, (6) $72, or (8) $94. The screw in type with an o-ring are MSD P/N 2125 set of 8. Those prices are list, but nobody pays list.

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          • #20

            Looking at this pic it looks as if the welded on tube is restricted in inner diameter. Is this the case or is the ID fully open clear through? Furthermore, even if the ID is fully open clear through, I believe the exhaust gasses are restricted where the two tubes intersect as the volume of two tubes are essentially restricted to one tube at the point of intersection. You may have to make the X tube out of tubing that is 1-1/2 times the diameter of the other exhaust tubing so as to not restrict flow. This may be a dumb question, but why do the dual exhaust pipes need to be connected? Anyway, its an interesting project and its looking good!


            Brent's rootbeer racer.
            MN iron ore...it does your body good.
            sigpic
            In the middle of MinneSTUDEa.

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            • #21
              I believe the balance tube slightly duplicates the effect of having 180 degree headers. The idea is the same as a 180 degree intake. The four cylinders of each plane in a v8 fire at consistently spaced times. But the only way to do the exhaust the same way is with a spaghetti looking set of headers; where pipes from either side cross over to join up with evenly spaced firing cylinders.

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              • #22
                quote:
                Looking at this pic it looks as if the welded on tube is restricted in inner diameter. Is this the case or is the ID fully open clear through? Furthermore, even if the ID is fully open clear through, I believe the exhaust gasses are restricted where the two tubes intersect as the volume of two tubes are essentially restricted to one tube at the point of intersection. You may have to make the X tube out of tubing that is 1-1/2 times the diameter of the other exhaust tubing so as to not restrict flow. This may be a dumb question, but why do the dual exhaust pipes need to be connected? Anyway, its an interesting project and its looking good!
                I'll do my best to explain this, so here goes. If you guys recall maybe when you were a kid and you could get two pieces of paper to stand in an X by making a notch halfway through each side of the paper? Thats how this pipe was cut. The pipe was cut on each side about 3/4 of the way through and then the seams were welded up to close the pipe. If you look down the pipe, you will see that the openings of the notches do not restrict the pipe, they are a little larger or equal in diameter to the diameter of the actual pipe. Basically at the center it is the same diameter as the inlet and outlets of the pipe. Like I said, I could get a universal setup, which would most likely have a larger opening in the center, but I had some extra stock on hand and I got this wild hair up my you know what, so I assembled this for the car. If you'll notice an ordinary X pipe is like a "+" where it's ninety degrees on all sides. I wanted to see what might happen if I did more of an "X" where the angles are greater at the sides and less at the ends. To also answer about why anyone would do this, what this does is to the best of my knowledge,yeah, it equalizes the exhaust pressure on both sides of the engine. It should also improve scavenging, and eases backpressure leaving the engine. The H pipe can perform this function, the X pipe should be able to perform this function a little better since there's a little better flow through an X pipe. What's interesting is the Avanti's originally came stock with an H pipe. Your Brand X's now come with this exhaust system(stock and aftermarket installed), it's also a standard exhaust system for aftermaket companies, such as Borla, Corsi, and Dynomax.

                [IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
                [IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
                [IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
                [IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

                1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Update:
                  Itty bitty piece came in today from Ebay. It's a Bosch 17014 Wideband AF Oxygen Sensor for the exhaust. This is what makes AF gauges do their thing, well the modern ones anyway(I recall the old old olllld Snap On? setup I saw at a swap meet, hoo boy).



                  It's got a nice six pin plug on it with a covered 2 prong dummy plug on the back. It's also got an enclosed tip(I'm thinking of the other design that has the ball inside in this context).





                  Like I said, I lucked out on an O2 sensor port on one of the turbos, so I'll screw it into there . I consider this one of the critical components for making it all work. This is also the part that can make electronic systems lose their tune if they get damaged. I consider it as one of the items that is necessary to make everything go for FI with forced induction, as well as being a necessity for using with forced induction.

                  [IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
                  [IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
                  [IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
                  [IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

                  1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                  1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                  1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                  1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Some of you have expressed interest and resulting confusion on how this FI system works, so I'll do my best to explain it:
                    The Injectors:

                    The injectors operate like an electrical switch. If you apply a little power it will open the injectors with a subtle "click". Take the power off and it closes the injector. There are a couple types. Low impedance and High Impedance

                    Low impedance injectors have a resistance rating of about 1.7 to 3.0 ohms. These require a resistor pack external to the injectors because they can burn up if they are given full 12 volts across the solenoid in the injector. The Megasquirt website has the necessary equations, but the resistor shouldn't be fairly large. As an example they give using 6 ohm 25W Ohmite resistors for an injector in the 1.2 ohm range. If improperly used can also take out the computer as well. Apparently though they do give a better idle on larger engines. These injectors from what I read are normally open, but close when they are grounded, so it sounds like a reverse setup compared to the high impedance injectors. Your Honda products will have a setup like this, usually with a resistor box somewhere nearby.

                    High impedance injectors:
                    These are what I'm using. They are what you may typically find. They are the injector you may find on a Towncar, or the average 4.6L Ford product. These injectors have a solenoid that are in the 10-16 ohm range, and they receive a signal from the computer when to open and close.

                    To check whether you have a low impedance or high impedance setup, take a multimeter and measure the resistance rating across the terminals, like measuring a resistor rating. If its 1.0-4.0 ohm its low impedance(resistor box needed) and if its 10-16 ohm, its high impedance(they wire straight to the computer).

                    My fuel injection setup is port injected, which means each port to each cylinder receives an injector. There's three ways to do this setup:

                    Batch fire; All injectors are wired together and all injectors fire at the same time. GM was good for this setup, and its simple, but it does suck the fun out of port injection a little as all injectors are going at once. All would be wired to one pin on the computer, so the signal goes out to all the injectors.

                    Bank fire; The injectors are wired in such a way that the injectors alternate when to fire. For instance(and I'm presuming here), a person may want to wire them so they coincide with the firing order. The Megasquirt system I'm using has two banks, so one set of pistons in the firing order are wired for one bank from the injectors, and the other set of injectors are wired in the firing order for the other bank. The two banks are nothing more than two pins(such as on the plug of a serial cable), where the signal from the computer originates.

                    Sequential; This is gonna be a challenge for us, as this requires a cam signal(a sensor on the cam in other words). The injectors fire to the corresponding opening and closing of the valves, so each individual injector receives an indivdual signal from the cam, which would most likely get its signal from the computer. For many of us, this would be great to do, but it is a little over the top(I do love over the top though ).

                    For many of us, and a good portion of the users that do the Megasquirt route, many I believe use the Simultaneous, or Batch Fire method.

                    Fuel pump:
                    The Holley blue pump cannot be used. You will need a pump that can supply fuel according to the injector specifications. For my injectors, port injecton calls for a pressure rating around 45 psi. If it was a simple throttle body, it should be around 20 psi, and then with my carb setup, its around 7 psi(had to throw that last one in there, lol).

                    Fuel Regulator:
                    You will need a regulator that can support this pressure, or the pressure that the throttle body or port injection calls for. The regulator apparently comes in two styles, Vacuum and Adjustable. I like the adjustable ones because I can exert some control over what's going into the fuel system. The vacuum version calls for a va
                    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                    1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                    1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                    1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Do you think a choke could be used on a FI system to eliminate the need for coolant and air temp sensors? And-- Are all of these questions going to be on the final exam?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I don't think so, no. The two sensors send information back to the computer on when to change the parameters from a warmup mode, to an operating mode. One is measuring the temperature from the coolant, the other is measuring the actual air temperature(or ambient temperature), and it uses them I believe for comparison. Without those two it's like cutting off a couple of limbs, the computer can't make sense of what to do. Megasquirt says that the two are exactly the same sensor, so just get two sensors than using just one. The Megasquirt guys also recommend using the GM sensor with a plug(which is a very cheap sensor from the FLAPS), but since I have a boatload of them, I wanna use a couple of the Studebaker sensors. What I have here is I wanna try to use what Studebaker provided, in other words, use the sensor already in the head that runs the gauge and branch the wiring off to the computer, and stick another one just like it in the intake passage, and run that directly to the computer.

                        No the information won't be in the written, but you'll need to know this for the practical portion(Plays the Simpson music of Dum Dum Dummmmmmmmmmmmmm). [)]
                        1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                        1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                        1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                        1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          PBR2

                          Please keep this thread going. You don't find this type of post very often.

                          A question: In my readings when putting the TPI/ECM (Corvette) system in the 54, I was lead to understand that the output from each sensor was a standard range of voltages that the ECM would compile and use for decision making. I would think that it would be difficult to use the Stude sensors or does the megasquirt allow for sensing different voltage and changing the range.

                          I'm in awe.[]

                          Bob

                          ,

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                          • #28
                            Dangit, I wanna use a choke and do away with two of the sensors...What would happen?

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                            • #29
                              I would think that since Megasquirt is programmable and able to be recalibrated, that I wouldn't expect it to be difficult to use a standard Studebaker sensor, since the sensor is a basic sensor. The only problem would be "noise", much like the ignition noise coming through a car radio, if there are no condensors. It can disrupt the signal to the computer, and give some erroneous readings. They recommend using a GM sensor that has two connectors with a molded plug, one for the computer, and one for a ground on the computer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Studebaker sensor has a wire going to the gauge and it should ground through the block. I think the way they say it is, it would work, yeah, but it's not the optimal choice.
                              I should say regarding using a manual choke, you might be on your own with that one, I'm just doing this by what the manual says.
                              1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                              1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                              1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                              1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Since the way a choke works is by increasing the vacuum so more fuel is pulled out of the jets I think all it would do in an FI system is confuse it.

                                Jeff DeWitt

                                Jeff DeWitt
                                http://carolinastudes.net

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