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  1. #1
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    My Street Version Port Injection for the '55

    A few of you have expressed interest in this project that I am working on for the '55. I have also posted these pictures in the Racing Forum as well. So far here is the work that was done to push this forward:





    The manifold is the late style manifold. These things can be found literally everywhere and can be had for pennies. I chose this route because, just like some of my HO engines, I wanted a mass produced part whereas if I mess up, it's not a big loss and I am able to find another relatively easily. The rails and the injectors are off of Ebay. They are basically aluminum blanks that can be milled, drilled, tapped, etc. The bungs are made for a fairly standard size injector. The rails are somewhat larger, which I'll have to adapt later on. I believe they are in the 11/16 range diameter, and can support 1100 hp. What I did was drill a hole in each port, and I used a jig I fashioned to angle them at the valve. For a street application this is probably overkill(however I like going the extra step with this stuff, lol). The bungs have to line up precisely, which is why I used a jig and guide plate as the rails and injectors are all in line with each other.
    I used some Ford 33lb injectors that came off of a Towncar, and its accompanying throttle body. This is somewhat important, matching injectors and throttle body to the engine. Too small and the engine will lean out too early from lack of fuel. Too big and you could inadvertently wash down the cylinders and kill the motor. Both the injectors and manifold came off of the Towncar's 4.6L engine, and its a standard widely used injector, so for the time being I won't presume any leaning or power problems will erupt when its coupled to the 289. For simplicity sake I just mounted the throttle body atop the mounting flange using a spacer. The only thing is the Ford emblem is flipped upside down because this particular throttle body mounts to the end of a TPI type of manifold with the throttle body pointing forward. It still does the job nonetheless.
    For a fuel pump, I am going to either get a Walbro unit or I can chase down an Econoline external pump as they should have enough pressure to handle the injectors. I may not be able to use the Holley carb electric fuel pumps as the pressure is too low. I will also need a regulator and some gauges to adjust the pressure, and the lines will be steel and high pressure rubber line. I am also still aways off from getting the Megasquirt unit and the sensors, so for now we're still gradually acquiring parts and pieces. [8D]

    Edit:
    I cheated a little when I drilled out the bungs and rails. I have some of my grandparents machinist tools and measuring devices, which means I have tools that most of the populace has long forgotten about, so I had access to some very big drill bits to get the job done. The work was also pretty physical as this was done using not much more than a drill press and a hand drill.


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    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
    1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
    1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
    1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

  2. #2
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    I believe I like this type of post the best. It's something you don't see every day and gives unique options to other forum members.

    Thanks much for posting and PLEASE!!! continue to post your progress.

    Bob

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    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    When you get a little time...explain to us simple minds just how many sensors will be required, where in the system they are placed, and how and what they do to adjust fuel and air delivery as demand changes. (I know, I know, I should read up on this on my own, but you could save us the effort!)

    John Clary
    Greer, SC

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  4. #4
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    Well, I'd like to use the Megasquirt system. As far as sensors I know what will be used is:
    Map(Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor: That's found on the computer itself. If you had a GM like I had with the Sunbird it was found on the manifold as a separate component. It's kinda like a fancier version of how a vacuum gauge is arranged. On my pickup I used a Map sensor to run the boost gauge. It's also used to supply information to the computer. For me it will also be key to supply information on how much pressure is in the manifold so it can inject the correct amount of fuel if the car comes under boost.

    TPS: In my setup thats found on the throttle body. That tells the computer how far open the valve is opened and whether it is necessary to inject more fuel or not. When fully opened it provides maximum air delivery, which provides maximum fuel delivery. When partially closed it provides just the necessary amount to keep the car happily idling.

    Coolant sensor(runs the temp gauge ordinarily): This sensor now replaces the thermostatic choke setup on the carb. It used, along with an external outside air temperature sensor, to determine the amount of time the car needs to warmup. It's also wired to the fast idle solenoid on startup. Usually the outside and inside sensor are the same sensor so there is not a need for another sensor.

    Oxygen sensor: LOL, if yall had to replace one of these,you know how much of a pain the butt these are on stock vehicles. These are the sensors that litter the exhaust system back to catalytic converter and are of high importance. These are found in the exhaust manifold and they not only help with tuning the car, they also determine if the car is running too rich, too lean, or just right. It can also command the computer to inject more or less fuel from this point, and helps determine an AF(air/fuel) ratio and a table for the megasquirt system. If you wanna go the CASO right, a narrowband sensor may work, but if you wanna tune many finer points a wideband is highly recommended. These sensors are also one of the main causes for poor running, as when these get fouled, they send only what they can read from the exhaust gases. I'd like to pick up an Innovate setup for this little project.
    Fast Idle Solenoid: When the car is cold it's an on or off sensor. It's coupled to the coolant sensor so that when the sensor detects the engine is warm, it shuts this solenoid off, releasing the throttle valve. I think the one I had on the ProJection unit was found under the linkage where your vacuum modulator would sit.
    Along with these, there's the accompanying wiring, relays, etc that get installed as well. These sensors usually all work in conjunction with each like the nerves and organs of the human body. Thus far I see probably two extra sensors that will need to be mounted, the oxygen and the map sensor. The map sensor shouldn't be a problem as its integrated into the computer.

    [IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
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  5. #5
    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    This is one of the best condensed explanations of a modern system I have ever read. Thanks a bunch! As far as the oxygen sensor...what are your thoughts about location? Do you have any ideas about protecting it from fouling? To me...it looks like you have some wonderful opportunities to experiment and have a load of fun at the same time.

  6. #6
    Silver Hawk Member Milaca's Avatar
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    I'm guessing that you will make exhaust headers for this in order to mount the oxygen sensors?


    Brent's rootbeer racer.
    MN iron ore...it does your body good.

  7. #7
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    For oxygen sensors, this is probably one of those situations where you may get a million different responses. The sensor goes into a bung that is welded into the exhaust pipe. I think on average you would want it at the end of the collector, pointed to the left or right side. You don't want it in the bottom of the pipe because the sensor can be subject to rocks, bugs, snow, and the elements. You don't want it in the top because then it becomes a pain to get to. Ordinarily most people get one sensor, mount it in the pipe, and call it done. Usually its best to do it where the exhaust ports join at one point, which would be the collector. If you wanna get fancy and you have twin turbos, you can mount one in both collectors. If you're a stickler for super accurate AF ratios, you can mount them in the collector, midway in the exhaust, in front of the entry to the muffler, and so on, which is what many makes do now. What the computer does is it takes readings from all of these separate sensors and then it should spit out a general output to the FI about what and how much fuel to inject. I'd like to say, the more sensor, the more detailed things get. It also warrants to having to maintain all of the separate sensors as well, which from what I see, is what is driving some of our other members apepoo. It depends on what you wanna do with your system. You don't need an exhaust header(but it helps) as its just a hole with a sensor poking through it. I'd say to protect it from fouling, you can probably angle the bung, or get a thick bung so it doesn't thread clear into the pipe(this a WAG here). I should say that since the sensor is in a hostile carbon rich environment like the plugs, there is a certain level of unavoidability with the sensors(Yeah, they do go bad). One of the main causes is not only how much fuel is in the exhaust(like when you have you're flamethrower going), but how much cr** is present in the gas. An interesting note is I haven't yet seen a situation in our modern cars here where it warranted needing to replace an oxygen sensor yet and many of them are exceeding the 100k mile mark, but thats getting pretty presumptious there. A catalytic converter replacement, yes, but O2 sensors, not yet. We also drive em until they die as well, lol.

  8. #8
    Silver Hawk Member Milaca's Avatar
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    I've had to replace the O2 sensors in my 1996 F-150 4x4 with 300ci 6 cylinder with only 50,xxx miles at the time. Now it has just over 70,xxx miles and I'm getting O2 errors again. Perhaps its because I dont drive it enough? I had 2 near the engine and one I had to reach over the transmission to get to the top side of the exhaust pipe in front of the converter. Anyway, I'm not a fan of an abundance of electronic sensors but it is amazing what they can do.


    Brent's rootbeer racer.
    MN iron ore...it does your body good.

  9. #9
    Silver Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    My very inexperienced opinion is that the oxygen sensor could be installed in a thick spacer designed similar to the heat riser valves. If the bungs were drilled at an angle and the sensor a bit recessed, perhaps it would be somewhat self cleaning and less likely to foul.

    John Clary
    Greer, SC

    Life... is what happens as you are making plans.
    SDC member since 1975

  10. #10
    President Member Jeff_H's Avatar
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    Oxygen sensors require high temperatures to operate. The older ones with only 1 or 2 wires are put in the exhaust manifold near the collector for that reason. Some of them will have a heater element to get them up to operating temperature faster on cold starts or allow them to be put farther down the exhaust where things would otherwise be too cold. Those will have several wires with 2 for that heater. Without looking this up, my recollection is they need something like 700+ degrees. The heater elements can take a couple amps to operate.

    The operating principle is sort of like a battery with the oxygen in the exhaust being the electrolyte or part of it. So, the voltage the "battery" generates is proportional to the amount of oxygen present. The narrow band ones have a "raw" output and basically will generate some voltage or not depending if there is oxygen there. If the engine is operating at "stoichiometry" where the air to fuel ratio is ideal for complete combustion then there should should be no oxygen. If too rich there is still no oxygen and too lean there will be some oxygen. But, the sensor output is such that its hard to tell how much. So, the engine computer will adjust the fuel injectors to get the signal from the oxygen sensor to flip back and forth between showing there is oxygen and no oxygen. This gets the engine to be running as close to ideal as it can. The computer can't tell how much past ideal into lean or rich it is so it keeps "dithering" around it. It will be doing this rapidly when the engine is running "closed loop". The wide band sensors in contrast have a amplifier or some other circuit with them that can show how much oxygen is there, not just that there is some. So, much finer control over the air/fuel ratio can be done. You don't see those narrow band sensors so much anymore since emissions regulations are so much tighter than back in the 80s. Also, the processing power on the engine computers is much much greater now than back then. There really wasn't the capability to handle the wideband sensor output with the computers used. Wideband ones have been around since the 90s though.

    Jeff in ND

    '53 Champion Hardtop

  11. #11
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    Where's a good place to get a caso price on those weld in injector bungs? Also, how do I determine if I have a narrow or wide band O2 sensor?

  12. #12
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    Prior to discovering the bung on the turbo I was using, I had the same question on the bungs. One of the places you can go is when NAPA had the HELP section they had those spark plug anti foulers. The anti foulers were the same thread size and dimensions as the bungs and sensors sensors that are used on the Innovate setups. These anti foulers can be welded into the exhaust pipe and the sensors can thread into the anti fouler. The numbers that were used are

    42002
    42009

    I cannot recall which one of these numbers is correct, but the sensor should be 18mmX1.5mm, so you'll need the 18mm spark plug anti foulers. You'll need to cut off the external thread and weld the rest to the exhaust pipe. The sensor threads into the internal thread. Make sure you apply anti-seize to the thread before you install in case you need to remove the sensor for any reason. For determining the type of sensor I'm gonna go out on a limb here because I haven't fiddled with those too much(I have in mind for getting one when this comes together though). A good AF gauge may tell you what kind of a sensor you have. If its a narrow band sensor it may only give only a couple of values on the AF gauges, which should be something like >15.0-14.7-<12.0, or something to that effect. If its a wideband it should give you those values, and values in between. It's like the difference between coarse and fine control. I know a few of the members here that have those, so feel free to chime in. Also, this is a sensor that can run by itself, so if you wanna tune using a carb, this is a great device to have.
    I had forgotten to add that you can use a sensor and an AF gauge from any FLAPS, but those will more likely be a novelty item. For some serious fun, get the Innovate unit and sensor. The Innovate setup has a wideband sensor and gauge.

    The humor about the bungs is I think I got this little diddy from the megasquirt people, as well as this was a cheap trick for the Honda people to keep the check engine light from coming on when they went to a modified exhaust system(which in turn also kept the emissions people from complaining, lol).

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    I understood about 62% of all that. But anyhoodle, I was talking about the bungs that the injectors fit into on the manifold. I've priced them at places like summit, but they are way too proud of theirs. I only need three for a batchfire champ six, planned on using 5.0 ford injectors.

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    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    I got mine off of Ebay along with a set of rails. You know the vendors that advertise for Studebaker O2 sensors that have miles of listings on each page? Well I typed in fuel injector bungs, or something to that effect, and picked the cheapest set on the page. They're nothing more than a set of aluminum blanks that the injectors just slip down into. As an example, this is one of the sites I went to:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alumi...Q5fAccessories



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    I'll just solder together pieces from a 5.0 mustang for my fuel rail. I could chop pieces out of the original intake for injector bungs but I'm using steel for my manifold. Who's got a little turbo to donate?

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    MSD has them they are $8.00 apiece. If you want I can look for a part no.

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    I could only find sets of eight on Summit. So, yes, I would appreciate the part number.

  18. #18
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    A little more on my little project with the '55 Commander. Over the past, oh, six months to a year I've been working on this car and the separate components here. What I would do is separate the car into separate projects. After I'm finished I will take the part and add it to the collection of stuff to go back to the car. I also try to keep things as systematic as possible, so say if it's fuel, I collect and restore all and any parts for that part of the car. It keeps the confusion down and helps me remember what is still needed to get done on the vehicle. At the moment I'm still collecting parts. I'm also out of work and the budget is running short so, the postings may or may not get longer between durations here. The car here and the trains are what keep my patience in check, well until I can't do more until the funding rolls in, but I digress.

    Here is where it started, these are 535976 stock heads that came from the 259. Following a couple of threads on this and the racing forum, I used a Dremel to hog these ports out. They have been gasket matched, had 1.7 rocker arms installed that I bought from Ted Harbit, and I did some cleaning, sanding, and polishing the valves up so they look pretty again. The intake manifold was also done in the same way. I did my own ccing and they first started out in the neighborhood of 62cc before I cleaned up the heads, and then 66cc's once I had finished. I went through and did valve area, intake, and exhaust manifolds(just cleaned these up), cleaned up the grunge, painted them black, and set them out on the shelf. This took at least a couple of weeks on and off





    Anyway, here is where the direction of this car is headed in. I was always impressed with the few twin turbo vehicles in the club here, but many of them are race only(my observation). I've seen Brand X's use twin turbos on the street for many years now, so I decided that's what I wanted to do with the '55. I wanted to construct a twin turbo, port injected, vehicle using common salvage yard parts and have it be able to be used on the street. Now at this point, some of you probably think I've lost it. I have experience with forced induction vehicles in this arena with the Lark and the truck and not a hint of trouble. Heck, the truck's system was constructed by learning how turbo systems work overall and putting theory into practice. So, before starting I had one turbo, an AirResearch T3 that I picked up at a hamfest for a few dollars that was gonna be converted for jet propulsion. The turbo, I was told came from a GM. I later learned that this looks like the turbo that went on the Pontiac 301's, or some of the last of their V8 lines in the early eighties. I love how well this thing spools but I wasn't thrilled when I learned what Pontiac's motivation was for asking AirResearch to do it. It was akin to "We want a turbo for the car, but we don't want the customer to be able to feel when the car goes into boost ". That sat on the shelf for a few years until this summer I got a td05, which is a second generation Eclipse turbo. This turbo was bought off of Ebay for a few dollars, and I had to disassemble it to replace a chipped compressor wheel with one that came in the box, along with a better looking sandblasted housing. The turbo had a sticking wastegate as well, so I had to do some bending so that the turbo can extend and retract without getting hung up. For a turbo this is bad news if this isn't working because the exhaust gas that is building pressure on the turbine has nowhere to vent if the flapper doesn't open. I also ported the exhaust side to the wastegate as these turbos are notorious for boost creep. Here are the two turbos I will be using.
    The AirResearch T3
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  19. #19
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    The epoxy in or weld in bungs are MSD P/N 2120 set of 8. Holley has P/N 534-83 sets of (4) $50, (6) $72, or (8) $94. The screw in type with an o-ring are MSD P/N 2125 set of 8. Those prices are list, but nobody pays list.

  20. #20
    Silver Hawk Member Milaca's Avatar
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    Looking at this pic it looks as if the welded on tube is restricted in inner diameter. Is this the case or is the ID fully open clear through? Furthermore, even if the ID is fully open clear through, I believe the exhaust gasses are restricted where the two tubes intersect as the volume of two tubes are essentially restricted to one tube at the point of intersection. You may have to make the X tube out of tubing that is 1-1/2 times the diameter of the other exhaust tubing so as to not restrict flow. This may be a dumb question, but why do the dual exhaust pipes need to be connected? Anyway, its an interesting project and its looking good!


    Brent's rootbeer racer.
    MN iron ore...it does your body good.

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    I believe the balance tube slightly duplicates the effect of having 180 degree headers. The idea is the same as a 180 degree intake. The four cylinders of each plane in a v8 fire at consistently spaced times. But the only way to do the exhaust the same way is with a spaghetti looking set of headers; where pipes from either side cross over to join up with evenly spaced firing cylinders.

  22. #22
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    quote:
    Looking at this pic it looks as if the welded on tube is restricted in inner diameter. Is this the case or is the ID fully open clear through? Furthermore, even if the ID is fully open clear through, I believe the exhaust gasses are restricted where the two tubes intersect as the volume of two tubes are essentially restricted to one tube at the point of intersection. You may have to make the X tube out of tubing that is 1-1/2 times the diameter of the other exhaust tubing so as to not restrict flow. This may be a dumb question, but why do the dual exhaust pipes need to be connected? Anyway, its an interesting project and its looking good!
    I'll do my best to explain this, so here goes. If you guys recall maybe when you were a kid and you could get two pieces of paper to stand in an X by making a notch halfway through each side of the paper? Thats how this pipe was cut. The pipe was cut on each side about 3/4 of the way through and then the seams were welded up to close the pipe. If you look down the pipe, you will see that the openings of the notches do not restrict the pipe, they are a little larger or equal in diameter to the diameter of the actual pipe. Basically at the center it is the same diameter as the inlet and outlets of the pipe. Like I said, I could get a universal setup, which would most likely have a larger opening in the center, but I had some extra stock on hand and I got this wild hair up my you know what, so I assembled this for the car. If you'll notice an ordinary X pipe is like a "+" where it's ninety degrees on all sides. I wanted to see what might happen if I did more of an "X" where the angles are greater at the sides and less at the ends. To also answer about why anyone would do this, what this does is to the best of my knowledge,yeah, it equalizes the exhaust pressure on both sides of the engine. It should also improve scavenging, and eases backpressure leaving the engine. The H pipe can perform this function, the X pipe should be able to perform this function a little better since there's a little better flow through an X pipe. What's interesting is the Avanti's originally came stock with an H pipe. Your Brand X's now come with this exhaust system(stock and aftermarket installed), it's also a standard exhaust system for aftermaket companies, such as Borla, Corsi, and Dynomax.

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  23. #23
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    Update:
    Itty bitty piece came in today from Ebay. It's a Bosch 17014 Wideband AF Oxygen Sensor for the exhaust. This is what makes AF gauges do their thing, well the modern ones anyway(I recall the old old olllld Snap On? setup I saw at a swap meet, hoo boy).



    It's got a nice six pin plug on it with a covered 2 prong dummy plug on the back. It's also got an enclosed tip(I'm thinking of the other design that has the ball inside in this context).





    Like I said, I lucked out on an O2 sensor port on one of the turbos, so I'll screw it into there . I consider this one of the critical components for making it all work. This is also the part that can make electronic systems lose their tune if they get damaged. I consider it as one of the items that is necessary to make everything go for FI with forced induction, as well as being a necessity for using with forced induction.

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  24. #24
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    Some of you have expressed interest and resulting confusion on how this FI system works, so I'll do my best to explain it:
    The Injectors:

    The injectors operate like an electrical switch. If you apply a little power it will open the injectors with a subtle "click". Take the power off and it closes the injector. There are a couple types. Low impedance and High Impedance

    Low impedance injectors have a resistance rating of about 1.7 to 3.0 ohms. These require a resistor pack external to the injectors because they can burn up if they are given full 12 volts across the solenoid in the injector. The Megasquirt website has the necessary equations, but the resistor shouldn't be fairly large. As an example they give using 6 ohm 25W Ohmite resistors for an injector in the 1.2 ohm range. If improperly used can also take out the computer as well. Apparently though they do give a better idle on larger engines. These injectors from what I read are normally open, but close when they are grounded, so it sounds like a reverse setup compared to the high impedance injectors. Your Honda products will have a setup like this, usually with a resistor box somewhere nearby.

    High impedance injectors:
    These are what I'm using. They are what you may typically find. They are the injector you may find on a Towncar, or the average 4.6L Ford product. These injectors have a solenoid that are in the 10-16 ohm range, and they receive a signal from the computer when to open and close.

    To check whether you have a low impedance or high impedance setup, take a multimeter and measure the resistance rating across the terminals, like measuring a resistor rating. If its 1.0-4.0 ohm its low impedance(resistor box needed) and if its 10-16 ohm, its high impedance(they wire straight to the computer).

    My fuel injection setup is port injected, which means each port to each cylinder receives an injector. There's three ways to do this setup:

    Batch fire; All injectors are wired together and all injectors fire at the same time. GM was good for this setup, and its simple, but it does suck the fun out of port injection a little as all injectors are going at once. All would be wired to one pin on the computer, so the signal goes out to all the injectors.

    Bank fire; The injectors are wired in such a way that the injectors alternate when to fire. For instance(and I'm presuming here), a person may want to wire them so they coincide with the firing order. The Megasquirt system I'm using has two banks, so one set of pistons in the firing order are wired for one bank from the injectors, and the other set of injectors are wired in the firing order for the other bank. The two banks are nothing more than two pins(such as on the plug of a serial cable), where the signal from the computer originates.

    Sequential; This is gonna be a challenge for us, as this requires a cam signal(a sensor on the cam in other words). The injectors fire to the corresponding opening and closing of the valves, so each individual injector receives an indivdual signal from the cam, which would most likely get its signal from the computer. For many of us, this would be great to do, but it is a little over the top(I do love over the top though ).

    For many of us, and a good portion of the users that do the Megasquirt route, many I believe use the Simultaneous, or Batch Fire method.

    Fuel pump:
    The Holley blue pump cannot be used. You will need a pump that can supply fuel according to the injector specifications. For my injectors, port injecton calls for a pressure rating around 45 psi. If it was a simple throttle body, it should be around 20 psi, and then with my carb setup, its around 7 psi(had to throw that last one in there, lol).

    Fuel Regulator:
    You will need a regulator that can support this pressure, or the pressure that the throttle body or port injection calls for. The regulator apparently comes in two styles, Vacuum and Adjustable. I like the adjustable ones because I can exert some control over what's going into the fuel system. The vacuum version calls for a va

  25. #25
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    Do you think a choke could be used on a FI system to eliminate the need for coolant and air temp sensors? And-- Are all of these questions going to be on the final exam?

  26. #26
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    I don't think so, no. The two sensors send information back to the computer on when to change the parameters from a warmup mode, to an operating mode. One is measuring the temperature from the coolant, the other is measuring the actual air temperature(or ambient temperature), and it uses them I believe for comparison. Without those two it's like cutting off a couple of limbs, the computer can't make sense of what to do. Megasquirt says that the two are exactly the same sensor, so just get two sensors than using just one. The Megasquirt guys also recommend using the GM sensor with a plug(which is a very cheap sensor from the FLAPS), but since I have a boatload of them, I wanna use a couple of the Studebaker sensors. What I have here is I wanna try to use what Studebaker provided, in other words, use the sensor already in the head that runs the gauge and branch the wiring off to the computer, and stick another one just like it in the intake passage, and run that directly to the computer.

    No the information won't be in the written, but you'll need to know this for the practical portion(Plays the Simpson music of Dum Dum Dummmmmmmmmmmmmm). [)]

  27. #27
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    PBR2

    Please keep this thread going. You don't find this type of post very often.

    A question: In my readings when putting the TPI/ECM (Corvette) system in the 54, I was lead to understand that the output from each sensor was a standard range of voltages that the ECM would compile and use for decision making. I would think that it would be difficult to use the Stude sensors or does the megasquirt allow for sensing different voltage and changing the range.

    I'm in awe.[]

    Bob

    ,

  28. #28
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    Dangit, I wanna use a choke and do away with two of the sensors...What would happen?

  29. #29
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    I would think that since Megasquirt is programmable and able to be recalibrated, that I wouldn't expect it to be difficult to use a standard Studebaker sensor, since the sensor is a basic sensor. The only problem would be "noise", much like the ignition noise coming through a car radio, if there are no condensors. It can disrupt the signal to the computer, and give some erroneous readings. They recommend using a GM sensor that has two connectors with a molded plug, one for the computer, and one for a ground on the computer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Studebaker sensor has a wire going to the gauge and it should ground through the block. I think the way they say it is, it would work, yeah, but it's not the optimal choice.
    I should say regarding using a manual choke, you might be on your own with that one, I'm just doing this by what the manual says.

  30. #30
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    Since the way a choke works is by increasing the vacuum so more fuel is pulled out of the jets I think all it would do in an FI system is confuse it.

    Jeff DeWitt
    http://carolinastudes.net

  31. #31
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    Good point. So if the vacuum increases, the comp would probably lean the mixture. A lot of things to consider. I was just thinking maybe the designers of the FI system might have wanted to make avery part of it electronic. If there were any parts that could be simplified, it would sure be a lot easier on me. What kind of ignition system are you going to use? Do you have to have the mechanical and vacuum advances controlled by the comp? I'd like to be able to run a stand alone electronic ignition.

  32. #32
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    A tiny update on my idea for my air intake sensor. The coolant sensor of course is already in the head, and I can use the exact same sensor in the air intake tract. So here is the air intake sensor and the corresponding coolant sensor, never mind the size of the thread, lol. Take your pick of what sensor suits yall for your application, lol.



    The TPS sensor(the thing in the first pic with the red splotch hanging from the side of the throttle body)is already on the throttle body and the MAP sensor is on the brain box, so it looks like for now, all those sensor bases are covered.

    Oh don't nobody freak about the thread, I'll do my best when the stuff comes in. Just bear in mind that patience is a virtue, and the postings may be infrequent. To put it one way, I'm in this deep with the parts and the interest between myself and the rest of the forum seems to be more than a minor passing, so it'd be a shame to let it just disappear.

    I just got that last posting there:
    Remember, we're talking about, ohh, 40 years of FI evolution, so this is a culmination of electronic parts over the years.

    Megasquirt will allow for points, Pertronix, Mallory, EDIS, etc. The only thing is you have to instruct it in the program what type of system you are running. I'd like to use EDIS, where you have the crank sensor, trigger wheel, coil modules, etc. Depending on what happens I do have the AC Delco distributor that came from the 259 for that initial getgo once the engine is back in the car. The distributor is not much more than a fancy simple switch. The only caveat with a physical distributor I would be concerned with is timing. Megasquirt for that type of distributor needs to know where the timing is set at as it cannot read a mechanical device like it could with an EDIS system(I dunno about distributors like the Mallory but with the plain ol Prestolite, reading an electric switch operated by physically rotating the assembly where nothing plugs into the brainbox is difficult for a computer [)].

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  33. #33
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    Is there no way to use an oem system? But it sure does sound like the Megasquirt system is the way to go to learn because they are so helpful. I just wonder if I can use the ford comp that came with a 5.0, somehow. The vacuum advance and mechanical advance seem to work really well, so I'd like to leave them out of the equation. I have a long way to go to understand all of this; I only know enough at this point to ask stupid questions...but that never stopped me before..ha.

  34. #34
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    Well, with mine I'm a glutton for punishment, you should see some of my scratchbuilt and kitbashed railroad engines because I needed a locomotive role to fill on the train layout. Anyway, you can try with an OEM system. The system should be from a similar displacement engine with all of the injectors. I presume this will be a 170 cid engine so we're looking at pulling an EFI setup from a 2.8L engine. The Camaro, Celebrity, Cavalier, Citation, those with the tuned port injection for the 2.8L V6 engines may have what you need. You will need the injectors, computer, wiring harness, sensors on the engine. I'm not sure if they all sprayed at once in those years, but if they did, you may be able to mount the three like you have and wire them all together, or snip three of the injectors off. In this case the 5.0L may or may not work as those are some big injectors for a small engine, but since there are only three injectors spraying at the same time, the valve that opens will just suck the fuel in, without using an injector event. I would recommend an adjustable fuel regulator, fuel pump, and fuel rail for the application. The setup will also require knowing the pinouts for each of the wires on the harness from the computer. The other thing is the application will run off of the stock tune for the V6 Chevy(which is why I suggested getting a similar displacement engine FI, it may be less "buggy"). It may not know that its being used on a Studebaker engine, but it may react, whether positively or negatively, to these strange readings coming from this Chevy engine. Thats why I am going with the Megasquirt as it provides the flexibility for a custom tune. The only hitch is the learning curve.

    Just remember too, with enough time, money, and patience, anything is possible when it comes to cars... [)]

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  35. #35
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    I found a garrett turbo for $35. Could it be too large? What do I need to check out on a used turbo?

  36. #36
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    What's the size and model of the turbo? The model of the turbo can be determined by the model name or number on the compressor side. For instance I am using an AirResearch T3 and a Mitsubishi TD05. Technically I should be using two TD05's but I had this other turbo from something I picked up at a hamfest years ago, lol. Anyway with the model name, the compressor map can be located and the AR ratio can be acquired. These two items can tell you if the turbo is too small, or too big. The compressor map is a graph with a series of "islands" in it. The islands tell you how efficiently the turbo will work with your engine combination. The closer your point on the graph is to the smallest of the islands, the better the turbo will work or spool. The A/R ratio tells you the aspect relationship of the size between the exhaust turbine and the compressor turbine. If the A/R ratio is too big, the engine will slow to spool off the line(that dreaded turbo lag). If the A/R ratio is too small, you'll get great power off the line, but you'll run out of steam at the upper rpm band, which can subsequently damage the turbo. Ordinarily for a street application for our cars, the T3 should suffice, unless you feel adventurous about using a unique piece . If you find the model of the turbo, I can probably give some information on if the turbo is good to use.
    This is where the information can usually be found, the model and name should be "tattooed" across the front of the compressor. The model is the alphanumeric code across the upper left side around the inlet of the compressor(TD05H):


    For looking for turbo condition, this is what I did when I went salvage yard scrounging for the one for my truck. First check for damage on the outside of the turbo. Make sure it's all in one piece, its not chipped or broken, etc. Second, make sure that it wasn't in a spot where rainwater has collected in the compressor or exhaust areas. I found a turbo from a Thunderbird, the Turbocoupes I believe, and I thought it'd be great to get that turbo off. To my dismay, the hood was left open and the compressor side had part of pressure hose components missing that go to the air intake, which left whatever was left on the turbo pointed up. The water had collected in there and rusted up the turbo pretty bad, so I couldn't use it unless I wanted to rebuild it(I'll get to that in a minute). Then, check for the condition of the impeller on exhaust and intake sides. The TD05 I have had a chipped impeller, but fortunately I got a new bead blasted housing and impeller to replace it. If there's a chipped impeller, odds are something got in there, like a stone or rock, or a mishandled screwdriver, and damaged the the vanes. This of course needs to be replaced as it reduces the efficiency of the turbo. The last thing is, check for spin and endplay. If it doesn't spin with a little encouragement, it may be seized or oil may have coked the journal surfaces inside. This can come from either long use or shutting down a car too fast after a long trip. The endplay is how much does the impellers wiggle back and forth and side to side. There should be a little as when the shaft is oiled the oil functions like a cushion. If there is alot, like so much so that the impeller is getting into the walls, it will need to be rebuilt.

    Rebuild kits, oh yes these are all over the place. Most of them its a few journal bushings, some snap rings, and some circular gaskets, or like a PS rebuild kit [)]. A number of the guys I know like to rebuild there's as soon as they get them from a salvage yard, so they have a turbo with new parts inside, which isn't a bad idea. I am a bit of a CASO in this respect where, if it works, hey thats great, if it don't, I won't pick it up. When it goes then I'll get the rebuild kit. This is one of the nice things about these over the Paxtons. I can undo the snap rings, seperate the sections out, replace things like oiling journals,

  37. #37
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    Did you just use JB weld to epoxy the injector bungs in? I have a 5.0 intake all cut up I could cut the bungs off of, but they're aluminum, going into that cast iron manifold; maybe I should use some sort of clamps too. I already have a turbo off a 84 ford V8 diesel truck; is that way too large?

  38. #38
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's JB weld. I pressed them in like you would with a valve guide and then ran the JB weld around the bungs thoroughly to seal them up. There's two ways one can go, weld them in or epoxy them in. I went the epoxy route, and made sure there weren't any gaps or cracks between the bungs and the manifold.

    Is this the turbo from the Ford Diesel?

    http://www.mjmturbos.com/gtp38.htm

    http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...rMax_large.jpg

    This would be the compressor map for it:

    http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...e_Comp_map.pdf

    The turbo comes off of a 7.3L Diesel turbo [:O]
    I crunched some quick numbers and at:
    5000 rpm(presume redline for a 170)
    10 lbs of boost(using a boost gauge to dial the wastegate in and out)
    The turbo will hit the very lower part of the 79 percentage range for turbo efficiency at the center island.

    Also at:
    5000 rpm
    14 lbs of boost
    The turbo will hit smack dab in the lower portion of the 79 percent turbo efficiency range middle island

    You can use it if this is the turbo. Ordinarily you will probably be in the lower part of the graph, and the outer islands(70-75 turbo efficiency percentage range roughly) if its street driven(3000 rpm or thereabouts) and around 7-10 psi. It is a little bit big(it came off of a 7L diesel [)]), but, it will be possible to use this turbo if you don't mind a little bit of lag, followed by a kick in the seat when it really starts to spool.

    Fine print: These are rough numbers, do not take this as Gospel, your results may vary. Engine may suffer black smoke, spark plug fouling, piston blowing, tire marks, a sudden heartstopping intense glee from turbo spool, or immediate swearing at the heavens for performance glitches. See compressor map and turbo specifications for details [)]

    Edit:
    I forgot this but according to the almighty Google, these turbos are also ball bearing units. I dunno if yours is or not, but these have an improvement on the turbos I'm using as instead of using a standard bushing and oil to drive the impellers, you have a very smooooooooth spool as the impellers are floating on ball bearing races, and are being oiled. The downside can be these may be a little more expensive if the turbo goes bust, as the turbos are operating on a system thats machined to a little higher quality than a standard bushing unit.

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  39. #39
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    Plain Brown: I've seen part of this post on the racing forum, and Tom Covington already posted a couple of my pictures of the Mass Flo unit I purchased(the modified lionel stone intake). I am making some slow progress putting together my project, which is a 53 with 289 and twin garret 2860RS turbos. I am keeping track of the cost, which is probably substantially more than I'd like, or what you are putting into the 55, but at the end of it all, I 'd be curious how you and I compare when it adds up. Outside of the up-front turbo costs, as opposed to junkyard dogs, I reckoned that even without taking into account the time factors, it was going to cost quite a bit after investing in injectors, and the megasquirt materials, and everything else. So, I'd be curious how things compare when, if ever, one of us gets close to running our contraption down the street.

    I am about to mate the stude 289/299(r2+ cam, ross pistons, valves, alum flywheel, etc etc, ) to a T56 transmission, and will probably have it in the vehicle(just about finished painting the chassis) after new year's.

    At that point, I can begin trying to fit in the turbos and downpipes. I suspect a big hurdle will be getting the upturned exhaust manifold(that I am going to try and use a s a 'log' style turbo mount) to fit up next to the Ross steering box - it is going to be real tight there. I have been thinking of trying a reversed R3 header instead, since they skive inwards at the middle, unlike the standard manifolds. Then I will start messing with the wiring harness/manifold, and engine management issues etc, and seeing if at all works out...

    In regards to a prior post, my understanding is to put the O2 sensor about 14 inches after the turbo. thanks- m weiss

    ok

  40. #40
    President Member PlainBrownR2's Avatar
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    A tale of two Studebaker FI systems.... [)]
    It might interesting to see the tally. There is a couple of hitches though. I am on a strict budget, so the parts come in one at a time. It may be weeks or months between acquiring all the necessary pieces, as money allows. It's a similar situation, I'm slowly getting all the parts and pieces together to put it together. I am also using Ebay as a great resource for gathering everything together. Everybody probably knows about "Oxygen Sensor for Studebaker vendors" on Ebay, to everybody's disgust. But I will buy from these guys for parts that may be a few bucks here, or a few bucks there, than compared to buying it over the counter, as they sell alot of the generic parts from the "Buy it Now" section in bulk with varying prices on the pieces, which so far has been a plus.

    Oh yeah, I know it will be a situation where I'll be upside down in the car. It is also something of a peeve of mine, particularly when they would get mired in this on the Trains forum on price comparisons. You know "I wanna buy such and such engine", which is followed by "You don't want that, the such and such engine is cheaper but doesn't have the bells and whistles but has a much more prototypical finish blah blah blah". It's like geez, if you like it, and have the money, buy it and enjoy it, you know. I don't waffle as much as you can see, lol. Anyway, but I know I gotta look at the car and the hobby as a whole, and keep in mind, I'm in it for the fun of it. I also like to see if I can build my own stuff, I've kinda been like that since I was 14. Have something nobody else has sort of thing. But as they say, whatever floats your boat, lol. However, for Ebay if I can get items for a lower cost than what they normally retail for, I can use the leftover monies to put it into another part of the build . There is one thing to keep in mind between the two systems. You can probably just buy the intake manifold from the box, plop it onto the engine, wire in the injectors, compter, etc, without as much of the effort. LOL, if I had the money, I'd go that route just as easily. But I don't have as much of the money, but I got time, and I love playing with the machining tools I inherited from my grandparents. Anyway, this system, is more akin to that they provide a universal computer, and you have to do the rest, including the machining for injectors, drilling the fuel rails, etc. Basically it's a little above a salvage yard build, as thats where the parts usually originate.
    After this is installed, I'll be happy to get the final score on everything that I bought. I know the big hurdle will be the brain box, relay box, and assorted cables. I also have a few luxuries I like to buy (somehow I can't pass up an LCDash, lol), but I'll leave that out as these aren't critical for operation.

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