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Thread: 55 Years later its Black Monday for GM

  1. #41
    President Member thunderations's Avatar
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    I may be barking up a wrong tree, but I see what I see.
    We travel in the summer in a diesel pusher motorhome and stay at many different RV parks. I always marvel at the towed vehicles, (towds) behind the many motorhomes. Almost all are either 4 Wheel drive with transfer cases that can be shifted into neutral or manufacturers from foreign lands that have built vehicles that will tolerate "4 down towable" conditions. Many of these need special attention and procedures to allow towing. Often it's below 65 MPH, (check the speed limits on Interstates), no more then a few hours without stopping and starting the vehicle for 10 or 15 minutes and shifting it through the gears before proceeding.
    The US and Canada probably has the highest percentage of Motorhomes in the world, yet none of the manufacturers build a simple 2 wheel drive vehicle with automatic transmission that can be easily towed with all 4 wheels on the ground.
    The only 2 wheel drive, automatic GM product that can be towed is the Equinox, built by Mitsubishi. The other often seen towd is the Honda CRV. Ford has had several automatic vehicles that could be towed 4 down in the past but have discontinued them and the only one left is the Fusion hybrid that is going to be discontinued.
    If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle, there is a conversion to add a U-Joint disconnect that is in the 2 thousand to 3 thousand dollar range and probably voids any factory warranties.
    I don't need a 40 to 50 thousand dollar, 6000 pound, 4 wheel drive SUV or Truck to tow behind my motorhome.
    I think that there is a huge market for a lightweight, 4 door SUV or sedan/station wagon that fit the requirements of RV'ers.
    Seems like the engineers can design mechanical things that can neartly drive themselves, back themselves into parking places, stop themselves and warn about lane changes, yet somehow can't make a transmission that can be put into neutral and towed.
    Why can't a $22,500,000 employee somehow listen to the people that use vehicle instead of just doing the same thing year after year and expecting a different result?
    OK, back to your regularly scheduled programing. This was just an observation based on actual happenings and conversations on the subject.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Many parallels with Studebaker's December 1963 South Bend plant closing, not the least of which is the stock price going UP when the announcement was made:

    https://www.freep.com/story/money/pe...fs/2114600002/

    As the owner of a current-model Ford Escape, I can understand the move away from conventional passenger cars, but our Escape gets a consistent 30 MPG+ under all conditions. Abandoning passenger car production because consumers are buying barely 20 MPG big SUVs and trucks seems like a fool's mission; I mean, sooner or later, gas prices are going to go back up. BP
    Gasoline prices do have an effect on large SUVs and trucks. I do not believe that gas prices are what is driving the major increase in small SUVs and Crossovers. Many of these are sold to baby boomers and those older than them. They find them easier to see out of and particularly easier to get into and out of with the vehicle's higher roof and seat height.

    For example, Cathy can not get out of our Acura coupe, but she can get out of our PT Cruiser, that is a similar configuration to a new small crossover. Also, I can get a standard size wheelchair into the hatch area of the PT Cruiser without even folding the rear seats. My only problem with that is that the wheelchair seems to be gaining weight as time goes on .
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  3. #43
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    GM... Good Riddance, RIP....... Now, back to Studebakers..........................
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderations View Post
    I may be barking up a wrong tree, but I see what I see.
    We travel in the summer in a diesel pusher motorhome and stay at many different RV parks. I always marvel at the towed vehicles, (towds) behind the many motorhomes. Almost all are either 4 Wheel drive with transfer cases that can be shifted into neutral or manufacturers from foreign lands that have built vehicles that will tolerate "4 down towable" conditions. Many of these need special attention and procedures to allow towing. Often it's below 65 MPH, (check the speed limits on Interstates), no more then a few hours without stopping and starting the vehicle for 10 or 15 minutes and shifting it through the gears before proceeding.
    The US and Canada probably has the highest percentage of Motorhomes in the world, yet none of the manufacturers build a simple 2 wheel drive vehicle with automatic transmission that can be easily towed with all 4 wheels on the ground.
    The only 2 wheel drive, automatic GM product that can be towed is the Equinox, built by Mitsubishi. The other often seen towd is the Honda CRV. Ford has had several automatic vehicles that could be towed 4 down in the past but have discontinued them and the only one left is the Fusion hybrid that is going to be discontinued.
    If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle, there is a conversion to add a U-Joint disconnect that is in the 2 thousand to 3 thousand dollar range and probably voids any factory warranties.
    I don't need a 40 to 50 thousand dollar, 6000 pound, 4 wheel drive SUV or Truck to tow behind my motorhome.
    I think that there is a huge market for a lightweight, 4 door SUV or sedan/station wagon that fit the requirements of RV'ers.
    Seems like the engineers can design mechanical things that can neartly drive themselves, back themselves into parking places, stop themselves and warn about lane changes, yet somehow can't make a transmission that can be put into neutral and towed.
    Why can't a $22,500,000 employee somehow listen to the people that use vehicle instead of just doing the same thing year after year and expecting a different result?
    OK, back to your regularly scheduled programing. This was just an observation based on actual happenings and conversations on the subject.
    I agree with everything that you say. The "catch" is in profit/dollars. The market that you describe is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. It is just not worth pursuing.
    Gary L.
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  5. #45
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinM1895 View Post
    There's no parts catalog reference for any 1980's/90's FoMoCo vehicle with propane. These would have been aftermarket conversions.
    Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans. They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender.

    Craig

  6. #46
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans. They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender. Craig
    Canadian markets exclusively, Craig? 'Never heard of them in the 'States either...but "never say never," of course. BP
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  7. #47
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Canadian markets exclusively, Craig? 'Never heard of them in the 'States either...but "never say never," of course. BP
    As far as I know, it was available in all states and provinces. Chrysler also offered a propane option on fleet Dodge Diplomats and trucks. Here is a link to a mention of the propane option in the 1983 LTD brochure: http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/stati...LTD-10-11.html

    Craig

  8. #48
    President Member thunderations's Avatar
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    They have been building the cars for decades and plan to build small SUV's in the future, just need a transmission designed to work with the situation. This is not rocket science, just a trans that would allow "free wheeling" when in neutral and still lubricate itself. I think the market is bigger then you think and others would buy the vehicle. Not all CRV's are towed, but those needing a vehicle to tow, flock to the Honda shop because it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by studegary View Post
    I agree with everything that you say. The "catch" is in profit/dollars. The market that you describe is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. It is just not worth pursuing.
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  9. #49
    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans.

    They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender.
    E2DZ-16098-A

    Craig
    You're correct, I just looked in the 1980/89 Ford L/M Parts Catalog. 1982 Granada & 1983/84 LTD sedans (both Fox-bodied midsize) were available w/a 2.3L with LPG option.

    They must have been very few and far between, because I never noticed or heard of one. I bought a new 1983 LTD Brougham with the 200 1V I-6. T'was the last year for this engine.

    No one "in the know" would buy a 3.8L V6, one of the worst turds foisted on mankind by FoMoCo. Parts and service guys called it the "miracle" engine.

    If the timing cover didn't rot out before 30,000 miles, if the head gaskets didn't blow before 40,000 miles, it was a miracle!
    Last edited by WinM1895; 11-27-2018 at 03:45 PM.

  10. #50
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    Just for the record, Lordstown was not built for the Vega. It started producing full-size Chevrolets for the 1966 model year, built Camaros and Firebirds, all before the Vega, and also built full-size vans for many years.

    We have a '15 Cruze and a '17 Cruze. The '17 is particularly a good vehicle IMHO. I couldn't see why any couple of two (like us) would need anything bigger. Very large back seat and large trunk space, beautifully trimmed interior IMHO, nice polished wheels in the LT (mid) trim level, was inexpensive to buy new, and built 35 miles down the road from me. It was a no-brainer. I would absolutely buy another--but not one built yesterday or later.

    Consumer Reports, for what it's worth, has the current Cruze on their "Recommended" list. Last month they removed two Honda models and at least one Ford from their list due to reliability issues.

    Just kidding mostly, but when we were young, if someone said they wouldn't consider a new LTD for '66 because they had a bad Model T, we'd say "What a crank!", LOL.
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  11. #51
    Silver Hawk Member studeclunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    'Gotta love Quartz' "translation" of the GM announcement:

    https://qz.com/work/1475097/gm-layof...se-translated/

    'Love it! BP
    Actually, with the 'translation' it makes perfect sense. Also, the previous CEO of the company (you know, the one Obama fired) was recently quoted as saying all of the major manufacturers are expecting the private automobile to be basically illegal on the road in not too many years. Hence, the mention of Autonomous cars. This transition is expected to take place in about ten years. He said the only place one will be able to operate an automobile is on a closed track. Also, being that the previous administration was involved in the replacement of the previous CEO of GM, I'm not at all surprised at her connections and priorities. We shall see if she and her team can actually pull GM out of the toilet or just pull the handle.

    And. Craig.. 'V' word???
    Since it's problematic, could you please PM me a translation? I would love to learn another dirty-word.
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  12. #52
    Silver Hawk Member studeclunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans. They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender.

    Craig
    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Canadian markets exclusively, Craig? 'Never heard of them in the 'States either...but "never say never," of course. BP
    I have seen them here in pre-Soviet California. The propane thing was very popular here due to the environ-mental movement. The dual-fuel conversion was also popular, however was a dealer-installed option, not from the factory, to my knowledge (IIRC which I doubt).
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  13. #53
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by studeclunker View Post
    And. Craig.. 'V' word??? Since it's problematic, could you please PM me a translation? I would love to learn another dirty-word.
    Here's your only hint!-------------> http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...lt-Opel-Ampera

    Second thought, here's another! -------------> http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...-sales-for-Oct

    You've hung around here long enough to know what that four-letter 'V' word is by now!!!

    Craig
    Last edited by 8E45E; 11-27-2018 at 06:12 PM.

  14. #54
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    We are growing a generation of buyers for import vehicles that are smaller. The secondary used car market for first time buyers/drivers will not be filled with buyers wanting an overprice beat to blazes SUV 4 wheel drive. I know that the last domestic(?) manufacturers/marketers have not even considered this. What the future holds no one knows, but my present includes a 1962 Lark and a recently acquired 52 Commander four door both with overdrive.

    Bob Miles
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  15. #55
    Silver Hawk Member JRoberts's Avatar
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    I had a discussion today about U.S. manufacturers getting away from the four door sedans. I cannot understand getting away from those sedans. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, most foreign makes produce a lot of four door models. I have a Subaru Legacy that is nine years old with 182,000 miles. I love this car! Subaru produces only four door cars for the U.S. market . Even their performance model, the STI, is a four door car. Around my area these things seem to be everywhere. Other foreign manufacturers may produce a low end two door but most are four door. VW no longer produces a two door car, even their Golf models are available only in a four door model. I can see no logic for Ford and GM stepping away from the four door automobile.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinM1895 View Post

    No one "in the know" would buy a 3.8L V6, one of the worst turds foisted on mankind by FoMoCo. Parts and service guys called it the "miracle" engine.

    If the timing cover didn't rot out before 30,000 miles, if the head gaskets didn't blow before 40,000 miles, it was a miracle!
    I guess that I know of many "miracles". Here are some examples that come to mind.
    Not "in the know", my in-laws bought a new Ford with a 3.8 in 1984. They had no problem with it in the nine years that it was their only car.
    More "in the know" than most, I bought a new 1989 Thunderbird with a 3.8 (they only came with 3.8 V6s then - no V8s). Many on this Forum probably remember the car. I drove it trouble free and many hard miles for 79K miles and then sold it to someone in the neighborhood. I saw it around for many years after that.
    I was a chauffeur for a livery company for many years. I mostly drove stretch Cadillacs, but the regular livery cars were 1988 Taurus and 1989 Sable sedans with 3.8 V6s. The four of them were driven about 60K miles per year each and sold in three years with 180K miles on them. I never heard of an engine problem with any of them and I do not recall any of them being out of service for other than oil changes and brakes. When they were sold, most people thought that they had a quick 80K miles on them (the odometers did not have the extra digit then).
    Last edited by studegary; 11-27-2018 at 09:55 PM. Reason: clarification
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    salries................................

    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    No sweat, George; GM President Mary Barra was paid $22,500,000 last year. Surely she'll be able to figure this out. BP
    Take a look at Carlos Goshen, the soon to be canned CEO of Renault, Nissan, etc.. I betcha he didn't get near that much for saving Nissan from red ink.. Just go's to show the ethics of SE Asia and the USA.. NO??

  18. #58
    President Member 55s's Avatar
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    I had an expensive late 90s "Luxury Touring" Astrovan.

    It was parked within five years due to the fact the motor would shut off, sometimes when I was towing a stock car trailer. Very scary stuff. No power steering or brakes - no power anything. I changed the very cheap plastic bottomed distributor twice thinking it would solve the problem. Not the fix. In hindsight, it turned out to be a faulty ignition switch.

    It didn't matter that much, because at 6 years old, with almost no further driving, it had rotten brake lines and gas lines.

    When I took my 50 year old plus 1955 Speedster gas tank to Gas Tank Renu, there was a lineup of 5 year old GM gas tanks. The Gas Tank Renu owner told me that he was replacing all of the fuel tank pick-up tubes so that owners could attach a hose to it that would run up to the motor and bypass the failing gas lines. I WAS NOT ALONE!!.

    In hindsight, I am grateful because, although my car investment went to almost nothing in 6 years, none of my family was killed in a possible deathtrap.

    I have not bought a GM vehicle since...

  19. #59
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Mary isn't alone in with her obscene CEO compensation. Pretty much the norm (unfortunately)...

    https://aflcio.org/paywatch/highest-paid-ceos
    Dick Steinkamp
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Your remarks and observations are greatly appreciated, Stu; thanks for tendering them. There is no substitute for having been there; we are fortunate to have your continued input and sharp memory.

    An observation and question: Do you have any idea about how much Byers Burlingame was paid in calendar year 1963? I'd like to run it through an inflation calculator and see how it compares with the obscene $22,500,000 Mary Barra was paid last year.

    (I also appreciate your Post #18, Thunderations; spot-on....in my never so humble opinion, of course.)

    Meanwhile, the sedan market isn't going away. It will simply be served by Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. After all,. how many gazillion Toyota Camrys has the public bought in the last 25 years...and continues buying today? BP
    Thank you for your compliment Bob. It's always nice to feel needed.

    Unfortunately I do not know what Byers Burlingame earned in 1966, however Sherwood Egbert earned $85,000 annually in 1964, plus stock options, residency at the Proving Grounds, two company cars and benefits.

    In Canada, Gordon Grundy was paid $55,000 annually in 1966, plus a company car, a leased car and benefits. To explain, all senior management and field sales and service personnel received a company car and were also allowed to lease a car for their spouse. Middle management personnel could have a leased car, The cost of a leased car began at $18 monthly.

    For comparison purposes, in 1966 as Director of Advertising and Public Relations, I received $10,500 annually plus a company car, a leased car and benefits. By the way, all vehicles supplied came with licence, insurance and service paid for by Studebaker.

    Stu Chapman

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post
    Well, you learn something new every day. According to GM's verbose official BS in this dispatch, Studebaker didn't close South Bend Assembly in December 1963, they simply "didn't allocate any production to it" in 1964!

    http://www.autonews.com/article/2018...autonews-annow

    Ah, the great Mother Tongue! BP
    HOW TRUE! Back in the 60s, Canadian media was exceptionally supportive of Studebaker and allowed us considerable liberties, for example....

    1 - "Studebaker will operate on one shift for the next two weeks instead of two in order to adjust inventory to sales". (Of course that's logical isn't it?}

    2 - "Studebaker will sponsor a Lola Studebaker driven by David Hobbs in the 1965 Canadian Grand Prix" (Why not, both are powered by the same basic engines.)

    Stu Chapman

  22. #62
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    My experience seems to run contra to you guys; the worst car I ever owned was a Toyota Camry; it was built very cheap and everything from the door handles to water pumps (yes plural) was replaced in the couple of years i owned it. I now own a 4-year old Equinox and a 2009 Malibu that are trouble free. My Grandson is making "need a car noises" and I'll give him the 2009 without worry.

    The other side of the question baffles me; do you really advocate that GM keep plants open whether the cars made there sell or not. You can't get around the simple fact is that the current crop of sedans are not selling and have been on a downtrend for years. The reality is that as less models are needed it's more economical to consolidate production.

    Perhaps we need a law forbidding management from making "business" decisions?
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  23. #63
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55s View Post
    I had an expensive late 90s "Luxury Touring" Astrovan.

    It was parked within five years due to the fact the motor would shut off, sometimes when I was towing a stock car trailer. Very scary stuff. No power steering or brakes - no power anything. I changed the very cheap plastic bottomed distributor twice thinking it would solve the problem. Not the fix. In hindsight, it turned out to be a faulty ignition switch.

    It didn't matter that much, because at 6 years old, with almost no further driving, it had rotten brake lines and gas lines.

    When I took my 50 year old plus 1955 Speedster gas tank to Gas Tank Renu, there was a lineup of 5 year old GM gas tanks. The Gas Tank Renu owner told me that he was replacing all of the fuel tank pick-up tubes so that owners could attach a hose to it that would run up to the motor and bypass the failing gas lines. I WAS NOT ALONE!!.

    In hindsight, I am grateful because, although my car investment went to almost nothing in 6 years, none of my family was killed in a possible deathtrap.

    I have not bought a GM vehicle since...
    Sorry about your experience. You may not believe this, but there are similar anecdotes about Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, BMWs, etc, etc. I wonder if there is anyone who has not had a bad experience with a car that has tainted their selection process? I heard one the other day about a guy that bought a 54 Ford and the motor went south after 35,000 miles. He has never bought another Ford. He will tell his '54 story to anyone who will listen (and hopefully do the same as he does with Fords, I guess).

    I bought a new GMC Safari (Astrovan) in 1988. Drove it for 250,000 miles with only maintenance and few repairs. Gave it to my oldest daughter who drove it for many more years, then traded it in (still running and driving nicely) on a newer used car. I doubt if your story is typical of all Astrovans (I still see plenty on the road), just as my story isn't.

    I bought a 1971 Datsun wagon new. It was pretty much a pile of crap. I managed to hang on to it for a full year before I got rid of it. It would be a big mistake on my part to put the build quality of a 2018 Nissan in the same category as my 71.
    Dick Steinkamp
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  24. #64
    Chief Cat Herder showbizkid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    Mary isn't alone in with her obscene CEO compensation. Pretty much the norm (unfortunately)...
    IMO, CEO comp should always be tied to performance. You get paid well as long as things are growing and prospering. Things start going south, so does your pay. It's only fair, and a wise check for the Board to put in place. It works where it's done.
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  25. #65
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by showbizkid View Post
    IMO, CEO comp should always be tied to performance. You get paid well as long as things are growing and prospering. Things start going south, so does your pay. It's only fair, and a wise check for the Board to put in place. It works where it's done.
    I agree....but it all depends on your definition of "paid well". IIRC, we thought CEOs were paid well in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s also....



    Top CEOs Make More in Two Days Than An Average Employee Does in One Year
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  26. #66
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stall View Post

    The other side of the question baffles me; do you really advocate that GM keep plants open whether the cars made there sell or not. You can't get around the simple fact is that the current crop of sedans are not selling and have been on a downtrend for years. The reality is that as less models are needed it's more economical to consolidate production.

    Perhaps we need a law forbidding management from making "business" decisions?
    X2...

    Take a look at the chart in this story...

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...teid=rss&rss=1

    "For the industry, car sales now represent a third of total vehicle sales, as shoppers opt for pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles. As recently as five years ago, vehicle sales were split fifty-fifty."

    If you were the CEO of GM, Ford or Chrysler you'd really do nothing about this trend?
    Dick Steinkamp
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  27. #67
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    X2...

    Take a look at the chart in this story...

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...teid=rss&rss=1

    "For the industry, car sales now represent a third of total vehicle sales, as shoppers opt for pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles. As recently as five years ago, vehicle sales were split fifty-fifty."

    If you were the CEO of GM, Ford or Chrysler you'd really do nothing about this trend?
    As I mentioned here in Post #15, http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...highlight=dart the market is currently 63% SUV/trucks/vans vs. 37% passenger cars.

    Craig

  28. #68
    Speedster Member Champ51's Avatar
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    A reasonable CEO should not walk away from 37% of the market. Instead, they should be inspiring their product development employees to design automobiles which people will want in that segment. Clearly, these CEOs have forgotten how volatile the petroleum market has been during the last 45 years. When (not if) fuel prices rise, people will be clammoring for smaller and more efficient vehicles and the non-GM / Ford companies will gain even more market share.

  29. #69
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    Sorry about your experience.

    I bought a new GMC Safari (Astrovan) in 1988. Drove it for 250,000 miles with only maintenance and few repairs. Gave it to my oldest daughter who drove it for many more years, then traded it in (still running and driving nicely) on a newer used car. I doubt if your story is typical of all Astrovans (I still see plenty on the road), just as my story isn't.
    HUGE difference!

    Where Paul lives is one of the most heavily salt infested roads for a good 6 months of the year in North America, versus Washington coast where salt usage is very minimal. In Ontario, the bodies and other exposed chassis components rust away far faster than the actual running gear.

    Craig

  30. #70
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    HUGE difference!

    Where Paul lives is one of the most heavily salt infested roads for a good 6 months of the year in North America, versus Washington coast where salt usage is very minimal. In Ontario, the bodies and other exposed chassis components rust away far faster than the actual running gear.

    Craig
    Good point...plus, its time with me (10 years?) was all in the San Francisco Bay Area.
    Last edited by Dick Steinkamp; 11-28-2018 at 08:48 PM.
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

  31. #71
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champ51 View Post
    A reasonable CEO should not walk away from 37% of the market. Instead, they should be inspiring their product development employees to design automobiles which people will want in that segment. Clearly, these CEOs have forgotten how volatile the petroleum market has been during the last 45 years. When (not if) fuel prices rise, people will be clammoring for smaller and more efficient vehicles and the non-GM / Ford companies will gain even more market share.
    I believe all 3 are retaining the portions of their sedan line up that meet that market segment. Just not 50% of their production like it was 5 years ago.

    When oil prices jump again, consumers will be clamoring for long range, fast charging electrics. GM says they will be ready by 2023. That may be too late.
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

  32. #72
    President Member 55s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    Sorry about your experience. You may not believe this, but there are similar anecdotes about Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, BMWs, etc, etc. I wonder if there is anyone who has not had a bad experience with a car that has tainted their selection process? I heard one the other day about a guy that bought a 54 Ford and the motor went south after 35,000 miles. He has never bought another Ford. He will tell his '54 story to anyone who will listen (and hopefully do the same as he does with Fords, I guess).

    I bought a new GMC Safari (Astrovan) in 1988. Drove it for 250,000 miles with only maintenance and few repairs. Gave it to my oldest daughter who drove it for many more years, then traded it in (still running and driving nicely) on a newer used car. I doubt if your story is typical of all Astrovans (I still see plenty on the road), just as my story isn't.

    I bought a 1971 Datsun wagon new. It was pretty much a pile of crap. I managed to hang on to it for a full year before I got rid of it. It would be a big mistake on my part to put the build quality of a 2018 Nissan in the same category as my 71.
    I bought the Astrovan based on its very good reputation and advice from my mechanic. However, they did cheapen it in the latter part of the 90s. My mechanic apologised more than once for the many changes GM made and the many issues it had. I was not alone....

  33. #73
    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55s View Post
    I had an expensive late 90s "Luxury Touring" Astrovan.

    It was parked within five years due to the fact the motor would shut off, sometimes when I was towing a stock car trailer. Very scary stuff. No power steering or brakes - no power anything. I changed the very cheap plastic bottomed distributor twice thinking it would solve the problem. Not the fix. In hindsight, it turned out to be a faulty ignition switch.
    I guess the newest GM products still have that problem: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/autos/auto...cid=spartandhp

    Craig

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