Main and rod bearings

[jclary]

New bad news. The machinist thinks I am better off replacing all of the valves rather than grinding, but I don't think he knows how much they are ($15.50 each)...

Well...I've been up since a little before 5:am, I've had supper, don't know if my insulin has kicked in yet, it's getting late for me, I'm not good with numbers, and I might be just a little foggy...but at $15.50 each, two valves per cylinder means 16 valves = $248, right? I don't know what the additional machinist charges will be to refurb your heads, but does the extra $248 put the total price out of reach??? Even if you found a great deal on an arm load of Chevy valves, would labor charges required for the modifications and fiddling around to accommodate the bastardized valves offset any benefit? Then, later on another future owner get totally bummed out about the whole mess when it needs another valve job?

I hate that you have encountered this mechanical setback because I was enjoying your initial enthusiasm about getting the Avanti and its possibilities. I hope you see a way forward without getting too discouraged and get it up and going. If you don't see it through to finish it for your own enjoyment, hopefully get it in good enough shape to pass it on to another owner without losing your shirt in the process. I'm glad you got it to the Maggie Valley meet. Perhaps next year, there will be no hurricane and you can lead the parade through the valley!

[PackardV8]

And yes, the machinist is probably being conservative, recommending replacing the valves. He's thinking the labor of R&R, disassembling, cleaning and reassembling is the same, so it should be put together with new parts. But then, after all, CASOs have reground worn valves, knurled the guides and reused the springs and the engine does run, after a fashion. These cars don't get a lot of miles and a patch job will get it to and from shows. It's Ron's money, Ron's car, Ron's decision.

jack vines

[Ron Dame]

And yes, the machinist is probably being conservative, recommending replacing the valves. He's thinking the labor of R&R, disassembling, cleaning and reassembling is the same, so it should be put together with new parts. But then, after all, CASOs have reground worn valves, knurled the guides and reused the springs and the engine does run, after a fashion. These cars don't get a lot of miles and a patch job will get it to and from shows. It's Ron's money, Ron's car, Ron's decision.

jack vines

Just to be clear, I want it done right and of course that isn't cheap. What I want to avoid is just spending money because it's easier on the machine shop. Y'all made me aware of how crappy an idea of lapping valves was ( and thanks) but I thought ground valves were OK. And these valves aren't the cheapest around, so if they can be ground and be satisfactory and save me a few bucks, that's great, if they can't be saved, well then they get replaced.
I appreciiate those of you who really know how to build these engines helping me and my local machinist do it right.

[TWChamp]

If the valve stems aren't worn, and the edge of the valve head isn't too thin after the grinding, then I see no reason to replace the valves. A thin edge will heat up and cause valve burning or firing problems.

[Ron Dame]

I don't know yet. Mains were in place, three rods were starting to turn, which shuts the flow off to them. The history of the car is vague, it seems it sat in poor conditions for 17 years. The guy I bought it from got it started by dribbling gas down the carb, but I don't think he did a thing before he did that. I'm seeing scores in the cylinders that are consistent with an engine that was dry-cranked, and compression was not what it should have been. I'll do the full Monty on it at this point. What is interesting, is that in 59,000 miles, it appears to have been rebuilt with few miles. It certainly has been balanced and is clean inside. Then maybe driven a bit and parked?

Yeah you are right, I don't know what I was thinking. The rods get oil from the crank, so they were indeed getting oil. Still, they were toast,

[Dan Timberlake]

Hi Ron,

During the teardown did you happen to measure, or at least get a good feel, for how tight the rod bolts and main bolts were?
That is one task where a clicker torque wrench is inferior to a good ol' beam type torque wrench.

[Ron Dame]

I did not check torque in removing, but I'd guess they were correct. They seemed consistent at any rate.

Hi Ron,

During the teardown did you happen to measure, or at least get a good feel, for how tight the rod bolts and main bolts were?
That is one task where a clicker torque wrench is inferior to a good ol' beam type torque wrench.

[Ron Dame]

The R2's iffy oil pressure though theoretically acceptable at 10 lbs/1000 RPM was heading me close to disaster. A few more miles and I'd have reap problems. The car sat for 17 years before I got it, and apparently in dirty, acidic oil. All were brinnelled, many were way down to copper. Three rod bearing were just starting to turn in the rods and were getting no oil. Yet the engine sounded fine.

Anyway, the crank is being checked at the shop to see if it can be polished, or how far it must be turned.


There has been some talk here about some US bearings that aren't any good and no Chinese bearings are any good, and so forth. For you veteran builders, who makes good bearings for the 289? ( and I am changing cam bearings as well)

So how long before this engine had a catastrophic failure?

[orecrush]

Would you happen to have a web site or phone # in order to purchase bearings

[StudeRich]

Would you happen to have a web site or phone # in order to purchase bearings

Hi Randal, PM sent today.

[jclary]

Each time engine cleaning is mentioned, it's mandatory I remind that the rockers must be disassembled, the soft plugs in the ends of the shafts removed and the shafts rodded out with solvent and a long brush.

jack vines

So how long before this engine had a catastrophic failure?[ATTACH=CONFIG]76585[/ATTACH]

Here's a great example of why we should take notice of folks with more knowledge/experience/wisdom and an earned reputation that comes from years of successfully earning their livelihood as a mechanic. But...we should also not simply give anyone too much credit than they deserve, or assume they always have our best interest in mind. Over thirty years ago, there was a local parts store that employed an old mechanic & they would "hot tank" engine blocks for us backyard mechanics. I took a 259 block and had it hot tanked. When I went back to pick it up, the old guy told me they were unable to get the oil galley plugs out, but he said: "we ran it through the cycle twice, so it should be OK." In this case, I gave the old mechanic the benefit of the doubt, took my engine back home and began reassembly.

A neighbor of mine, an excellent mechanic, about my age, would often stop by and check on my progress. He was a fleet manager of a large fleet of commercial vehicles that included everything from 18 wheelers to the company cars. A soft-spoken person, who would give his opinion, confident in his knowledge, willing to offer a helping hand, but willing to allow you to screw up and learn from your own stupidity (as I found out the hard way). He assisted me in installing new cam bearings, fitting the rod bearings, mains, etc. When I told him about the hot tank cleaning, he said I should remove the oil galley plugs and clean the passages myself. He was not pushy or insisting, but calmly said that's what he would do. I did not listen. I gave the older guy at the parts store shop more credibility. It was a horrible mistake!!!

As careful as I thought I had been in checking all the work I had done, for a couple of months of my spare time, all went for nothing, as in the first five miles of driving after reinstalling the engine, putting the front clip back on the Lark, and all the hard work...horrified as I watched the oil pressure slowly decrease to about 5psi as I returned home. All that work, cause I listened to the wrong person, who had made an excuse for not doing the right thing. I believe they turned the old Studebaker block over to the young kid in the shop, who didn't even try to remove the oil galley plugs, and thought they could get by. After I went back through the labor of removing the front clip of the Lark (again), more weeks of tear down, etc...I took the oil galley plugs out with very little effort. I cleaned those passages with a gun cleaner until a white cloth wouldn't get dirty moving through them.

I gained some great experience, learned some hard lessons, but in hindsight...worth the knowledge gained. I wanted to get mad at my buddy for not insisting I stop and clean those oil galleys. But, the world is full of people who keep screwing up because they never learn due to someone keeping them from learning the consequences of stupid decisions and judgment.

Ron, those bearings look worse than the ones I ruined. I'm convinced that if I had continued to drive mine, it would have looked just as bad. If I had been able to participate in a forum like this back then, perhaps I would have had the opportunity to get the point driven into my hard head. At least, in my case, I caught it soon enough not to send more abrasive debris throughout the entire engine. The main bearing inserts caught most of the garbage, and the damage was limited to being embedded in the bearing caps and scoring the crank. On my engine, I had another shop do the heads/valves and they did it the way Jack recommends. My mistake was mainly not doing my homework. You can get away with a little tolerance variation here & there, but abrasive trash, left in an engine is like dumping in a big dose of self-destruction.

[PackardV8]

I took a 259 block and had it hot tanked. When I went back to pick it up, the old guy told me they were unable to get the oil galley plugs out, but he said: "we ran it through the cycle twice, so it should be OK." . . . . but abrasive trash, left in an engine is like dumping in a big dose of self-destruction.[/B]

Yes, for true, John. The two threaded plugs in the rear of the Studebaker V8 block oil galleries are difficult to remove. Many times, it requires heating with an acetylene torch to remove them. As with the rocker shafts, no amount of hot tanking or external cleaning will get the internal debris and hard old crud out of there. It requires a lot of solvent and bore brush work.

[Ron Dame]

My last post disappeared, so here it goes again!
I went to the machine shop Monday to get them moving again. Friday, I got a call back so I know know what I need to order. The crank cleaned up at 0.010"/0.010", the bores at 0.030". 7 could have been honed, but one had deeper scratches than I realized.
The work will include 0.002" decking the block to square it up, heads will get bronze valve guide liners (never heard of this, but he says it's even better than new guides, and cheaper too), cutting for modern valve seals, new valves (they had been ground before and pretty marginal) new springs. I had gasket matched them before delivering them, but he's going to to a light clean up and minor bowl work to clear flashing and such. Since three rod bearing were just starting to turn, the rods will be resized and straigtend. The crank pins were slightly tapered, suggesting the rods needed straightening.
The engine had been balanced before, but given some of the shoddy work, he's going to check it and perhaps rebalance it. The cam is fine, but the lifters show wear. For $159, I guess I'll get a fresh cam too at this point.
The oil pump was weird, the cover had wear marks showing the gear shafts were not perpendicular to the cover, so both the body and the cover will be machined, as will the gears so end clearance is correct. side clearance was well within spec, so new gears probably aren't needed, but he'll look at them closer.
On my end, it's mostly been cleaning and painting parts in the engine bay. I also disassembled and cleaned the rocker shafts and honed the rocker tips with a stone. There was very little wear on them.
Once I get the pistons to him, the machinist will hone the bores to final size and then I will get busy assembling!

[Jeffry Cassel]

lapping valves is time consuming and thererfor costly. That is way it is not done. I've lapped many valves. It is not a sustitute for grinding but an adjuct to it. It gives a better valve to seat seal. Now-a-days its omitted thinking that running the motor will seat the valves after a while---and it will. Nothing CASO about it. Never a bad idea to have rods checked by machine shop. Helps with insomnia and it is cheap. What is turned bearing thing???? They are made to stay put and if things are so bad as to have .020 or .040 clearance the engine will fail in seconds and quite spectacularly since friction will turn them and shut off oil supply. It would be an excedingly rare occurence.

[Ron Dame]

RS1038 is back from the machine shop! 7 bores would have honed, but one had deep scores. It's all been bored 0.030" now, and those awful bearings: Crank was turned 0.010: on rods and mains. Not as bad as it looked! Rods were straightened and resized, everything was balanced. I was incorrect in my thoughts that it had been balanced before, still, someone was inside doing something, and the crank had some holes drilled for balance, I guess at Studebaker.

The cam was re-profiled to more modern grind, nothing exotic, and will be advanced to close to straight up. The intent is for a good street engine with la broad power band rather than a high HP/RPM goal. Basic bowl clean-up and port matching on the heads, SS valves, modern valve seals take care of the top end.

Everything looks squeaky clean and is bagged, but of course it needs to be cleaned again, especially the bores and the oil galleries. But it's too damned cold to clean anything unless I want it encased in ice! And bad news for weather and temps for at least a week. How I wish I had a heated garage.