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Thread: Main and rod bearings

  1. #41
    Golden Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackardV8 View Post
    Each time engine cleaning is mentioned, it's mandatory I remind that the rockers must be disassembled, the soft plugs in the ends of the shafts removed and the shafts rodded out with solvent and a long brush.

    jack vines
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Dame View Post
    So how long before this engine had a catastrophic failure?Attachment 76585
    Here's a great example of why we should take notice of folks with more knowledge/experience/wisdom and an earned reputation that comes from years of successfully earning their livelihood as a mechanic. But...we should also not simply give anyone too much credit than they deserve, or assume they always have our best interest in mind. Over thirty years ago, there was a local parts store that employed an old mechanic & they would "hot tank" engine blocks for us backyard mechanics. I took a 259 block and had it hot tanked. When I went back to pick it up, the old guy told me they were unable to get the oil galley plugs out, but he said: "we ran it through the cycle twice, so it should be OK." In this case, I gave the old mechanic the benefit of the doubt, took my engine back home and began reassembly.

    A neighbor of mine, an excellent mechanic, about my age, would often stop by and check on my progress. He was a fleet manager of a large fleet of commercial vehicles that included everything from 18 wheelers to the company cars. A soft-spoken person, who would give his opinion, confident in his knowledge, willing to offer a helping hand, but willing to allow you to screw up and learn from your own stupidity (as I found out the hard way). He assisted me in installing new cam bearings, fitting the rod bearings, mains, etc. When I told him about the hot tank cleaning, he said I should remove the oil galley plugs and clean the passages myself. He was not pushy or insisting, but calmly said that's what he would do. I did not listen. I gave the older guy at the parts store shop more credibility. It was a horrible mistake!!!

    As careful as I thought I had been in checking all the work I had done, for a couple of months of my spare time, all went for nothing, as in the first five miles of driving after reinstalling the engine, putting the front clip back on the Lark, and all the hard work...horrified as I watched the oil pressure slowly decrease to about 5psi as I returned home. All that work, cause I listened to the wrong person, who had made an excuse for not doing the right thing. I believe they turned the old Studebaker block over to the young kid in the shop, who didn't even try to remove the oil galley plugs, and thought they could get by. After I went back through the labor of removing the front clip of the Lark (again), more weeks of tear down, etc...I took the oil galley plugs out with very little effort. I cleaned those passages with a gun cleaner until a white cloth wouldn't get dirty moving through them.

    I gained some great experience, learned some hard lessons, but in hindsight...worth the knowledge gained. I wanted to get mad at my buddy for not insisting I stop and clean those oil galleys. But, the world is full of people who keep screwing up because they never learn due to someone keeping them from learning the consequences of stupid decisions and judgment.

    Ron, those bearings look worse than the ones I ruined. I'm convinced that if I had continued to drive mine, it would have looked just as bad. If I had been able to participate in a forum like this back then, perhaps I would have had the opportunity to get the point driven into my hard head. At least, in my case, I caught it soon enough not to send more abrasive debris throughout the entire engine. The main bearing inserts caught most of the garbage, and the damage was limited to being embedded in the bearing caps and scoring the crank. On my engine, I had another shop do the heads/valves and they did it the way Jack recommends. My mistake was mainly not doing my homework. You can get away with a little tolerance variation here & there, but abrasive trash, left in an engine is like dumping in a big dose of self-destruction.
    John Clary
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclary View Post
    I took a 259 block and had it hot tanked. When I went back to pick it up, the old guy told me they were unable to get the oil galley plugs out, but he said: "we ran it through the cycle twice, so it should be OK." . . . . but abrasive trash, left in an engine is like dumping in a big dose of self-destruction.[/B]
    Yes, for true, John. The two threaded plugs in the rear of the Studebaker V8 block oil galleries are difficult to remove. Many times, it requires heating with an acetylene torch to remove them. As with the rocker shafts, no amount of hot tanking or external cleaning will get the internal debris and hard old crud out of there. It requires a lot of solvent and bore brush work.
    PackardV8

  3. #43
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    My last post disappeared, so here it goes again!
    I went to the machine shop Monday to get them moving again. Friday, I got a call back so I know know what I need to order. The crank cleaned up at 0.010"/0.010", the bores at 0.030". 7 could have been honed, but one had deeper scratches than I realized.
    The work will include 0.002" decking the block to square it up, heads will get bronze valve guide liners (never heard of this, but he says it's even better than new guides, and cheaper too), cutting for modern valve seals, new valves (they had been ground before and pretty marginal) new springs. I had gasket matched them before delivering them, but he's going to to a light clean up and minor bowl work to clear flashing and such. Since three rod bearing were just starting to turn, the rods will be resized and straigtend. The crank pins were slightly tapered, suggesting the rods needed straightening.
    The engine had been balanced before, but given some of the shoddy work, he's going to check it and perhaps rebalance it. The cam is fine, but the lifters show wear. For $159, I guess I'll get a fresh cam too at this point.
    The oil pump was weird, the cover had wear marks showing the gear shafts were not perpendicular to the cover, so both the body and the cover will be machined, as will the gears so end clearance is correct. side clearance was well within spec, so new gears probably aren't needed, but he'll look at them closer.
    On my end, it's mostly been cleaning and painting parts in the engine bay. I also disassembled and cleaned the rocker shafts and honed the rocker tips with a stone. There was very little wear on them.
    Once I get the pistons to him, the machinist will hone the bores to final size and then I will get busy assembling!
    Ron Dame
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  4. #44
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    lapping valves is time consuming and thererfor costly. That is way it is not done. I've lapped many valves. It is not a sustitute for grinding but an adjuct to it. It gives a better valve to seat seal. Now-a-days its omitted thinking that running the motor will seat the valves after a while---and it will. Nothing CASO about it. Never a bad idea to have rods checked by machine shop. Helps with insomnia and it is cheap. What is turned bearing thing???? They are made to stay put and if things are so bad as to have .020 or .040 clearance the engine will fail in seconds and quite spectacularly since friction will turn them and shut off oil supply. It would be an excedingly rare occurence.

  5. #45
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    RS1038 is back from the machine shop! 7 bores would have honed, but one had deep scores. It's all been bored 0.030" now, and those awful bearings: Crank was turned 0.010: on rods and mains. Not as bad as it looked! Rods were straightened and resized, everything was balanced. I was incorrect in my thoughts that it had been balanced before, still, someone was inside doing something, and the crank had some holes drilled for balance, I guess at Studebaker.

    The cam was re-profiled to more modern grind, nothing exotic, and will be advanced to close to straight up. The intent is for a good street engine with la broad power band rather than a high HP/RPM goal. Basic bowl clean-up and port matching on the heads, SS valves, modern valve seals take care of the top end.

    Everything looks squeaky clean and is bagged, but of course it needs to be cleaned again, especially the bores and the oil galleries. But it's too damned cold to clean anything unless I want it encased in ice! And bad news for weather and temps for at least a week. How I wish I had a heated garage.
    Ron Dame
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  6. #46
    Speedster Member colt45sa's Avatar
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    I saw a '58 Cadillac Eldo which had had it's engine rebuilt, drive a couple of hundred miles, and then parked for 25 years. The acid build up in the oil had completely wiped out the bearings on the bottom end. I suppose the cylinder wash allowed by new rings had allowed enough fuel to get into the oil to cause an excessive amount of acid to be formed, and that acid really took it's toll over the years.

  7. #47
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    People often neglect the cambearings. You can dump a whole bunch of oil past worn cam bearings, thus starving the rods and mains (and every other moving part!)

  8. #48
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    Crank is in, waiting on a new bolt to put the damper on and check end clearance. This bolt is beyond hope. And a thread chaser is on it's way as well to clean the crank threads up.

    So today, I turned my attention to the pistons. The shop decided to put the pistons on the rods for me, so I double checked their work, both with the direction of the pistons and oil holes, and for correctly seating the pin retaining bolts. Everything checked out fine, but took as long as doing it myself.

    The pistons I bought are hypereutectic, and the instructions say that the top ring end clearance must be increased by 40%, or from 0.006-0.016 to 0.012 to 0.022. None make the grade, though the second and oil rings are fine. I need to knock of .003 to .005" to get to the tight end of the specs.

    So how do I file them to remain perfectly square? Is hand filing acceptable or is it CASO?
    Ron Dame
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Dame View Post
    So how do I file them to remain perfectly square? Is hand filing acceptable or is it CASO?
    Hi, Ron,

    Thing to remember is 'perfectly square' is a non-issue. The ends never touch anything. Only reason to try to stay square is it makes it easier to measure with the feeler gauge. Don't sweat the small stuff.

    Having said that, borrow a ring filer. It's worth the trouble not to have to worry about holding them straight with one hand and filing with the other.

    jack vines
    Last edited by PackardV8; 12-18-2018 at 08:37 PM.
    PackardV8

  10. #50
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    Today will be the last good day for a while to work in the garage, and I doubt I'll find a ring filer today. I'd love to get the pistons in today, but we will see.
    Ron Dame
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  11. #51
    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Here's an easy way to file rings without a ring filer gizmo.

    (See all the pic's here)

    https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2072708

    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff


    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

  12. #52
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    That looks like a plan! Thanks!
    Ron Dame
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  13. #53
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    So a big THANKS! to Jeff Rice on a good method to file rings without a ring filer. Since only the top ones needed filing, the eight went pretty quickly, maybe 5 minutes each with checking and rechecking.

    All the rings are on, I hope I can get the pistons in the bores and check rod clearances tomorrow before the cold sets back in. This old wooden shack of a garage does not respond much to heaters, the heat just leaks right back out.
    Ron Dame
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  14. #54
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    FML. I have the crank and pistons in, and was installing the cam. As I was CAREFULLY, pulling the gear on, first with a longer bolt then with the correct bolt, I felt a pop. Oooh, I thought, it was bound up but popped into place. another quarter turn and the whole nose of the cam, well beyond the bottom of the bolt hole, fell off in my hands. I guess my Christmas money goes towards another cam. Dadfrigginggummot!
    Ron Dame
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  15. #55
    President Member tsenecal's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear about the camshaft. Sounds like two steps forward, one step back. At least you're making prgress, and the cam is not hugely expensive. Good luck with it all!

  16. #56
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    Was it an aluminum gear? Sometimes those repop aluminum gears require heating to go on easily.

    We have reground cams, but need a core return. Maybe Phil Harris will still sell you one without a core charge.

    jack vines

  17. #57
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    It was the original gear. The cam broke just ahead of the journal and the break had oil in part of it, so it must have already been cracked somehow.
    Ron Dame
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  18. #58
    Golden Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Dame View Post
    It was the original gear. The cam broke just ahead of the journal and the break had oil in part of it, so it must have already been cracked somehow.
    Merry Christmas, Ron! How fortunate to discover the problem this way! Much better now than to reassemble the engine and have it grenade on you traveling at speed on I-40 and giving some inattentive texting driver an opportunity to plow through your Avanti as they blast you into a guardrail or down an embankment.

    Back in the 1980s, I had a timing gear disintegrate on me running about 70mph on I-85! It was a 1960 Lark 259V8. I had rescued it from under a huge oak tree, nearly buried under a pile of leaves. I was much younger then and instead of taking the time to carefully check the car out properly, I got 'er running and foolishly went blasting up the interstate. The failure was sudden and a shock to me. There I was, grinning from ear to ear on a beautiful sunny day. One moment, I was passing cars, with the solid lifter engine singing and then...silence...as I coasted to the side of the road. Dead silence...Except for the rocking of the car from the turbulence of traffic as it flashed by. One of the loneliest places on earth is sitting disabled on the side of a crowded interstate highway as the rest of the world zips merely by.

    So...I know this has not been all that happy for you, but (pun intended) it could turn out to be the luckiest break you have had in this project.
    John Clary
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  19. #59
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    I hear you John, I've beeb turning my thinking to how glad it roke now instead of on the road. Merry Christmas!
    Ron Dame
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  20. #60
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    Hi all, sorry but I am still looking for the answer to Ron’s original question.
    Where is the best place to acquire good quality main bearings for a V8. Thanks

  21. #61
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    I got mine from Bob Ziff at avantiparts.biz, but Myers Studebaker, Dave Thiebault, Fairborn Studebaker and I am sure many others have them. Just be sure to getUS made trimetal. There is one well known vendor who has a mix of bearings, but will tell you if you ask.
    Ron Dame
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  22. #62
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    BAH! The engine is almost together. Yeah, it's taken months, but with the busted cam, the stripped crank nose threads, bad weather and the flu, well, there you go.
    So today's task was to get the manifolds on, water pump, supercharger bracket, valve covers, etc, so I could plug this lump back in place tomorrow. Not gonna happen.

    When I went to install the breather tube on the oil pan, I found the lughead who'd messed with this thing in the past had stripped two of the three holes in the pan. Clearly, after spending a lot of time and care to get teh pan gaskets in place correctly, I'd just as soon not pull it off to either enlarge or to even try a helicoil.

    So has anyone tried the Loctite stripped thread compound? This isn't exatcly a high torque application, so I am encouraged. What do you all think, or does anyone have a better suggestion?
    Ron Dame
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  23. #63
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    I think that is an application that Loctite thread restore used to claim it was meant for. But I have no personal or even 2nd person experience either way. That said, I'm thinking the helicoil tap drill and probably even the tap should fit thru the pan hole.

    I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation.
    Are the bad holes all in a row? Are they accessible easily from under the car if the Loctite does not work long term?

    If they are hard to get at in the car I'd be leaning heavily towards a heli-coil right now. I'm no fan of just oversizing tapped holes.

  24. #64
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    I'll leave the final words to Jack, Jeff and the others experienced folks here but IIWM, It take the pan off and repair it. I know that is not what you may want to hear but my vision is there are very few threads into the pan and I'd want a deeper hole if I were to attempt to use the Locktite product. Hopefully someone that has done the repair will answer.

    I'd also be leery about a larger tap as even with grease you can't guarantee a few shavings won't find there way into the pan.

    Good luck, you've come a long way - Bob
    , ,

  25. #65
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetolbob View Post
    I'll leave the final words to Jack, Jeff and the others experienced folks here but IIWM, It take the pan off and repair it. I know that is not what you may want to hear but my vision is there are very few threads into the pan and I'd want a deeper hole if I were to attempt to use the Locktite product. Hopefully someone that has done the repair will answer.


    I'd also be leery about a larger tap as even with grease you can't guarantee a few shavings won't find there way into the pan.

    Good luck, you've come a long way - Bob
    That's my concern too, there is a plate, maybe 1/8" thick that has the threads. And then there is the windage tray that's in the way no matter what. How about a helicoil?
    Ron Dame
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  26. #66
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    Pull the pan, tack nuts to the thread plate, good quality nuts! you will thank yourself later. Ask me how i know, i had the same problem. Thread restorer worked for some time, but a small leak kept bugging me till i did it right. Luck Doofus

  27. #67
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doofus View Post
    Pull the pan, tack nuts to the thread plate, good quality nuts! you will thank yourself later. Ask me how i know, i had the same problem. Thread restorer worked for some time, but a small leak kept bugging me till i did it right. Luck Doofus
    there is a baffle in the way that keeps oil from being churned up into the breather, so it would have to be at free and rewelded. I don't want to do a half assed job now, but really, really don't want to go this far if I can find an acceptable alternative.
    Ron Dame
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  28. #68
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    If you use a helicoil you will need to drill out the threads. I'm again leery about a helicoil working in this thin a metal.

    If you are willing to drill, look into nutserts also called rivet nuts. Use locktite to be sure they are sealed. I use them all the time to put threads in thin metal, they are a staple in my selection of fasteners. They are available many places on-line.

    https://www.jhpfasteners.com/rivet-nuts.html

    I'd still probably pull the pan but you can use grease on a slow drill to hopefully collect the chips. If you are still on the engine stand, rotate they engine so you are drilling up into the pan with a greased drill and then take a pipe cleaner with grease on it with a 90 degree bend and swab around the inside of the drilled hole to be sure you, hopefully, get any chips that may have escaped.

    Bob
    Last edited by sweetolbob; 02-10-2019 at 08:06 AM.
    , ,

  29. #69
    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Well... 'If' the glue doesn't hold, you'll find out in about 15 minutes.

    I love good work. Your good work, no matter how tedious, is all that counts.
    It is frustrating to find out about someone elses previous bad work.
    It can be frustrating when you find out you did not check everything possible before moving on the the next step in your project.
    Why double, or triple, that frustration with a possible catastrophic failure.
    Take a deep breath, buy a new pan gasket set, fix it right with your own good work, and move on.
    You can sleep well at night (or at 75mph heading down the mountain on East I-40) knowing that is one thing you don't have to worry about.
    And it will give you a great Studebitchin' story to tell at the meets!
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff


    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

  30. #70
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    OK, you guys won.. sort of. First off, my garage is a 21 x 21 wooden POS with a concrete paver floor from the late 1940's, and is jam packed. But it's dry. So I pulled the pan off, then drilled the spot welds holding the baffle in place and cleaned things up.

    Now to the welder: Where the hell is it, what else in this Rubiks cube do I need to move to get it out? 15 minutes later, it's out, the Avanti is buried in containers and boxes and whatever, but here we go! Well, no, the wire is stuck to the contact. OK, that's fixed, but what is wrong with the wire feed? Oh yeah, it screwed up last time I used it and that's why the wire was burnt to the contact tip. Futz about for another 30 minutes getting the wire feed straightened out, but damn, I left the gas on and the tank is empty.

    So I rummage about some more and found my old Harbor Freight flux core welder. I made a few big sparks but failed to actually stick anything together before it crapped out completely. Damn!

    JB Weld to the rescue! Screw it, I've got new nuts epoxied to the pan, the baffle epoxied back in place, and Bob's yer uncle. Sue me!

    I told y'all I really did not want to go so far as to weld nuts in place!
    Ron Dame
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  31. #71
    President Member Ron Dame's Avatar
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    I'm down to the final stretch on this. Weather, flu, and general bad attitude has kept me out of the garage for a while. I still wonder who messed up the labels on my carefully bagged and labeled parts and switched a bunch of stuff around, and where the heck some of those fasteners are! But I digress, I've floundered through it.

    I was installing the alternator, and the condenser wire broke off. That just figures. What is the capacitance of that, and could I be lucky enough to be able to substitute and in ignition capacitor?
    Ron Dame
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  32. #72
    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Just leave it OFF, your Radio if it works will not know the difference!

    And if it does, you can always leave it turned OFF until you find the right Radio Static Condenser.

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