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Thread: 170 Champion Six

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    170 Champion Six

    Q: Is there any difference between a 170 Champion Six used in Sedans vs. M-series trucks?
    Q: If no difference, what years were they made?

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    Differences mainly lie in how engines are mounted, and which accessories are used and how they are mounted. "Small-journal" 170's made from 1941 to 1954. I don't know if the practice of using aluminum (vs fiber) cam gears and heavy-duty valves began in the 170 series or later. I think it's generally accepted here that Champion truck and car engines can be swapped between cars and trucks if the proper accessories are available to match them to the receiving vehicle. I know people here on this Forum have also put 185's and Lark sixes, both flathead and OHV, into older cars/trucks built for Champion engines, but it involved a little custom work.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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    It's complicated.

    Yes, there are many differences between the truck and car version.

    Yes, there are many parts which are identical.

    IIRC, the original Champion was a 164", introduced in 1939 and used in trucks from '41-on. Later a 170" was used up to '54 and a different version in '59-60.

    jack vines
    PackardV8

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    On OHV 6 truck engines the trans pilot bushings are different diameter than cars , Ed

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    You've answered my questions. To keep my M15A original I need to make sure the 170 I purchase is of truck configuration. Thanks Gent's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PackardV8 View Post
    It's complicated.

    Yes, there are many differences between the truck and car version.

    Yes, there are many parts which are identical.

    IIRC, the original Champion was a 164", introduced in 1939 and used in trucks from '41-on. Later a 170" was used up to '54 and a different version in '59-60.

    jack vines
    Mr. Vines,

    Not trying to embarrasse you, or anything. But your information is not entirely accurate. The early engine was only used up to engine 1M-5,408. The 169.5 was used there after. My 47 has the original 169.5. Internally, the 169.5 truck engine and the 169.5 car engine are identical. The only minor differences are on the exterior placement of certain items, carburetor and bell housing. Very minor changes to mount a car engine in a truck.
    Bo

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    Again, not entirely accurate. A 169.5 car will work with a couple of minor re-arrangements of certain exterior items. You would have to use your truck bell housing and starter. You can even install a 185 with minimal effort. Your close enough, why don't you bring your original engine down here and let us rebuild it for you?
    Bo

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    Quote Originally Posted by willys54 View Post
    You've answered my questions. To keep my M15A original I need to make sure the 170 I purchase is of truck configuration. Thanks Gent's.
    Again, not entirely accurate. A car 169.5 can be used with minor exterior changes. You can even use a 185 with minimal changes. What is wrong with your engine? If it can be rebuilt, why not have it rebuilt?
    Bo

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    Actually take a car engine, set it up for truck (it can be done fairly easily). Keep your original and rebuild it, then swap em out later.

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    Prior to my acquisition the truck was vandalized as it sat on the owners farm in WA. The thieves targeted the major engine components (head, manifolds etc.) & bright work so what is left of the engine has been exposed to the elements for several years. My belief is it's a boat anchor at this point. Am I wrong?

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    President Member TWChamp's Avatar
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    May still be rebuildable. You might get by with honing it or an overbore and new pistons. It depends on the internals of the engine as to how much you want to spend. I like to keep original matching number parts, so I'd at least give it a try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willys54 View Post
    Prior to my acquisition the truck was vandalized as it sat on the owners farm in WA. The thieves targeted the major engine components (head, manifolds etc.) & bright work so what is left of the engine has been exposed to the elements for several years. My belief is it's a boat anchor at this point. Am I wrong?
    No, not necessarily. It may be all right, depends on how it was exposed. If totally open where water could get into it and it has been full of water all these years, then I might venture to say it probably bit the dust. However, if it's been underneath a hood, and out of direct exposure to rain, I'd say you stand a very good chance that it may be all right and/or make for a good core to build. Would have to look at it to tell for sure.

    I think that is the first step I'd take, before running off and buying something that will probably need rebuilding as well. Your call, but if it is rebuildable that sure would save you some time and money. Heads and manifolds are pretty easy to find, so that isn't an issue.
    Bo

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    just soak the pistons with ATF/ACETONE mixture 50/50, ridge ream the top and start pounding them out with a block of wood and a hammer. you're just trying to save the block mostly. That's what has the numbers on it. then again it might have been changed at some point anyway. No way of knowing unless you get the build sheet from the museum.
    Also, save all the pieces from the engine, as you may need some of them to put another engine in anyway. As I said, a champ 6 from a car will work with minor changes and some pieces from the truck setup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Someone had a champ 6 in Cali cheap or free from what I remember a couple months ago.

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    Thank you both. Bo has a good point that most any other engine I buy would most likely need to be rebuilt as well. I think you both have changed my mind. If the missing parts are indeed easy to find I think I'll stick with the original engine and rebuild it. I will post pics and better assessment of condition once the Carrier delivers the truck to my residence.

    Bo,
    How much do you think it would cost to rebuild if I freight it down to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willys54 View Post
    Thank you both. Bo has a good point that most any other engine I buy would most likely need to be rebuilt as well. I think you both have changed my mind. If the missing parts are indeed easy to find I think I'll stick with the original engine and rebuild it. I will post pics and better assessment of condition once the Carrier delivers the truck to my residence.

    Bo,
    How much do you think it would cost to rebuild if I freight it down to you.
    Not sure where you actually live in Georgia? I have a nephew living in Valdosta and he drives the two hours to visit. I live just South of Gainesville, about 19 miles from Stephen Allen.

    The cost to build is really going to depend on what it will require to get it back in dependable running condition? If it doesn't need boring and you want an old fashioned slap and run rebuild (rings, valve job, bearings and gaskets) your looking at some where around $2k. The more modern professional rebuild upwards of about $4,500.00. If the tappet holes are worn out and needing over size tappets, or machining to return them to Standard with Bronze Sleeves, that adds another dimension to the equation. With everything internal new, new oil pump, new water pump, upwards of $6,500.00. It can get extremely stupid from there on.

    My machine shop rate here stands at $158.00 per hour, some are even higher. My automotive shop rate is $50.00 per hour. We try and do as much as possible in house, since I'm the one handing you the finished product and warranty.
    Bo

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    Also the starters on trucks aredifferently and use a Bendix that pulls rather than pushes into the flywheel...but all that is moot if you use the truck BH etc.

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    We have a complete 51 car engine. Does not turn. Don't know any thing else about it. In South Bend, In.

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    these boat anchors are thick as fleas.... til you need one...

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    I found a deal on a rebuilt engine but the seller does not recall if it's for a car or truck. Can someone decipher engine code 3M57T82.

  20. #20
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    If that's really a T, it's a rebuilder's number. If it's actually an I, it's a 226 cu in Commander 6 from an M-16 or M-17 truck.

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    Can you post a picture of both engines? The possible 226, and yours. If yours is a commander engine, it'll work. If yours is a champion, there are differences, but I'm not expert enough to say yay or nay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willys54 View Post
    I found a deal on a rebuilt engine but the seller does not recall if it's for a car or truck. Can someone decipher engine code 3M57T82.
    The T is probably a 1 and as Skip indicated it is a Commander 6, which is different then the Champion 6 and will not interchange, unless you change out a mess of stuff. Nothing used in conjunction with the Champion 6 can be used with the Commander Engine.
    Bo

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    The "M16" used the 226 but had a different firewall to clear the engine.

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