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Thread: Mustang 2+2 Clay with Avanti in the Background

  1. #1
    President Member Bordeaux Daytona's Avatar
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    Mustang 2+2 Clay with Avanti in the Background

    A friend at work showed me a Mustang book with a picture from 1963 of a Mustang 2+2(it was Cougar yet) styling clay and there's an Avanti and a Jaguar XKE in the background.
    Maybe it's been mentioned here before.



    http://www.mustangdrivers.be/mustang...tangtrivia.htm

  2. #2
    Silver Hawk Member Chris Pile's Avatar
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    And a Jaguar....
    The only difference between death and taxes is that death does not grow worse every time Congress convenes. - Will Rogers

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    It looks like it may be a Plymouth Barracuda in between.

    EDIT: The picture is too early for it to be a production Barracuda. It may be a Valiant or just another Mustang/Cougar variant.
    Gary L.
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    Maybe they were using the Avanti"s motor to trial fit the 289 into the Mustang ?
    Mustangs were powered by Stude 289's weren't they ?

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    President Member 62champ's Avatar
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    Would be very interesting to know what they determined about certain aspects on the cars they were testing.

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    President Member Silverplate's Avatar
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    It's not a Mustang at all, it's a Cougar prototype. The wording on fender and cougar in grill, no horse there. The car in between is probably at Mustang, vent window looks the same.
    Mike
    Fort Worth, TX


    1964 Avanti R2 #R-4986

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    Only one of the four cars shows a hint of the future... A rake!

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    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    I agree the Car hidden behind the Fastback Mustang is likely a Notchback Mustang.

    Ford must have been sizing up the XKE and the Avanti competition in May of '63 long after the Avanti was on the market and before the April '64 Mustang release.

    It has a Mustang Grille and says F O R D on the Hood.

    I believe Cougars happened in 1967.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    If I remember right, there is an Avanti Production Order/Driveaway Shipper that states 'Ford Motor Company' as the customer or the destination; perhaps in RQ's "Almanac" column in TW, and this may be the car. I wonder if it was partial payment for those Ford pickup boxes that were mounted by the factory on Champ trucks, also mentioned in the Almanac.

    Craig

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    Speedster Member TedsHawk's Avatar
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    It's styling prototype for Mustang. The "Mustang" name had just not yet been settled on, Cougar was one consideration. Later chosen for the Mercury version of course !

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    President Member Bordeaux Daytona's Avatar
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    This is new to me. Ford Allegro concept could have called Avanti.....http://www.carstyling.ru/en/car/1963_ford_allegro/

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    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    Looks like a mustang to me

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    President Member Silverplate's Avatar
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    Couple more photos of the Cougar prototype Mustang. It actually reads Cougar Torino on the right front fender. Cougar emblem in front grill. Split back window and Cougar on gas cap.



    Mike
    Fort Worth, TX


    1964 Avanti R2 #R-4986

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    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
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    Good thing they changed that back window. That just doesn't fit the rest of the car.

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    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swvalcon View Post
    Good thing they changed that back window. That just doesn't fit the rest of the car.
    Amen to that.
    Jerry Forrester
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    See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/tBjGzTk


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    I am thinking that divider down the middle is just a styling model thing. Often, the right and left sides of styling studies show different things.
    Gary L.
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    SDC member since 1968
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    Looks to me like that split window was a design consideration. If you blow it up some it appears that there is a tri-divided circle, perhaps the popular red, white and blue, with a cougar running through it. Remember that the 1963 Corvette had the split window and this photo was 1963. Funny thing, if all these pictures are of the same car, it doesn't appear to run across the top to the front. Only the one rear photo shows it clearly running above the window top and presumably to the front. Although somewhat copy cat, I'm sure it would have created a frenzy and would probably have been abandoned alla Corvette after one year and presto, instant high buck collectible!

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    President Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Wonder where that Avanti and Jaguar are today? What did Ford do with them once they were finished with the comparisons?
    Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

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    Gunslinger, apparently you don't know how the automobile industry's world works. After Ford, or any car manufacturer, was done with these comparison cars, they were given to big shot executives for free to give to their spoiled teenage kids to run them into the ground!

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    Speedster Member sgriggs's Avatar
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    I work for Ford and worked in the early 2000's in the complex where these photos were made. This is the courtyard of the Design Center in Dearborn, Michigan, and is just across Oakwood Blvd from the Henry Ford Museum. It is interesting that they were comparing the Mustang with an Avanti and Jag E-type.

    I've always thought the '65 Mustang fastback roofline was modeled after the Ferrari GTB, but that model Ferrari debuted as a 1964 model and these photos of the Mustang show essentially the final production design in May, 1963.

    Scott Griggs
    Louisville, KY

    4a5e2082876c6421e0adfe3ab7283563bc8c5fab.jpg

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    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeRich View Post
    I agree the Car hidden behind the Fastback Mustang is likely a Notchback Mustang.

    Ford must have been sizing up the XKE and the Avanti competition in May of '63 long after the Avanti was on the market and before the April '64 Mustang release.

    It has a Mustang Grille and says F O R D on the Hood.

    I believe Cougars happened in 1967.
    Rich, FoMoCo had a design contest between their divisions to style the car that became the Mustang. The L/M Division won the contest, calling their version the Cougar.

    Then after the car was styled, FoMoCo introduced a 'dream car' for the auto show circuit that had some of the Mustang's "styling cues."

    Mustang first shown to the public on April 17,1964 at the NY Worlds Fair, went on sale nationwide April 23,1964. FoMoCo called them 1965's from the get go.

    The following week, Life Magazine had a 'big spread' on the new Mustang, which was supposed to be on the cover.

    But General MacArthur had just died, so his picture was on the cover instead.

    However, the fastback wasn't introduced until August 24, 1964, and FoMoCo also made some changes (parts catalog says from 8/23/1964).

    170 I-6 and 260 V8 dropped, Mustang's received an alternator and a hood nose moulding. The bell housing bolt pattern on the block went from 5 bolt holes to 6.

    The hood is slightly different, the Mustang nameplate on the front fenders is 1/4" longer.

    Changing to an alternator from a generator, the T/S switch is different as is the steering wheel and the horn ring.

    btw: Mercury Cougar debuted September 1966 as a 1967 model.
    Last edited by WinM1895; 06-15-2018 at 12:04 PM.

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    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    If I remember right, there is an Avanti Production Order/Driveaway Shipper that states 'Ford Motor Company' as the customer or the destination; perhaps in RQ's "Almanac" column in TW, and this may be the car. I wonder if it was partial payment for those Ford pickup boxes that were mounted by the factory on Champ trucks, also mentioned in the Almanac.

    Craig
    The Champ used Dodge pickup beds w/a Studebaker tailgate.

    I've never seen a Ford 'Styleside' pickup bed on anything other than the Mercury versions that were assembled and only sold in Canada.

    1957/60 F100/350 Styleside beds also used on: 1961/65 F100/250 4WD; 1961/66 F350 (9' Express); 1962/63 F100/250 2WD; 1966 F250 4WD

    The only other Styleside in 1961/63 was the 'Uni' the bed was welded to the cab.

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Please review your June, 1995 TW and re-read RQ's 'Almanac' column.

    They produced fifteen of them from the State of New York, and two for the City of Tempe.

    Note, they were NOT Styleside boxes.

    Craig
    Last edited by 8E45E; 06-15-2018 at 05:53 PM.

  24. #24
    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    Please review your July or August, 1995 (give or take a month) TW and re-read RQ's 'Almanac' column.

    Note, they were NOT Styleside boxes.

    Craig
    Since they weren't Stylesides, they'd have to be Flareside beds, so called because the bedsides flare up and outwards.

    There were 3 different versions used 1957/72: 6 1/2' (F100 only), 8' (F100/250) and 9' Express bed installed on F350's.

    I had a '60 Champ with one of these beds, but I don't recall that it was a Ford bed, but that was back in 1973/74.

    What rear fenders were used, Ford or Studebaker?

    Here's a pic from the 1957/63 Ford truck parts catalog (body style 83 is a Flareside):

    20180615141603AF-7698.jpg
    Last edited by WinM1895; 06-15-2018 at 04:29 PM.

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinM1895 View Post
    Since they weren't Stylesides, they'd have to be Flareside beds, so called because the bedsides flare up and outwards. What rear fenders were used, Ford or Studebaker?
    You're getting warmer!!

    They used Ford fenders. And instructions in the Deviation Permit (#5227) stated 'The name "FORD" will be cut out of the tail gate and a plate spot welded in place'.

    In addition, Studebaker also installed a couple of Willys pickup boxes on Champs mentioned in the same article.

    But if you look a few months later in the October, 1995 TW, there is a photo a 1960 Styleside box on a 1960 Champ on page 41.

    Do you not have either copy of TW?

    Craig
    Last edited by 8E45E; 06-15-2018 at 10:43 PM.

  26. #26
    Golden Hawk Member
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    It might be worth mentioning here that Avanti stylists used cues from the 1961 Lincoln Continental and the 1961 Jaguar E-type.
    Gary L.
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    SDC member since 1968
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    Are they 2 different cars ?
    If you look through the glass of the 1965 plated car there is no rear window separation.
    pb

  28. #28
    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    The dividor might have been removable for study purposes.

    As for copying Ferrari, yeah, the stylists everywhere copied them in detail and in overall shapes. Studebaker less than most. Chevy was probably the one who did it the most.

    Ferraris were fairly obscure back then, not on the radar of most people. In 64 the most prolific Ferrari was still in the low hundreds of production.

    This is the 65 275 GTB, same as pictured above I believe.

    65 Ferrari 275.jpg

    I believe there is a Ferrari which has a roofline resembling the fastback mustang more clearly than the one pictured above. .....perhaps the SWB competition model...?

    The SWB is also very similar but the roof back has no louvers in it and it is a two passenger car.
    Last edited by t walgamuth; 06-16-2018 at 06:29 AM.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    Golden Hawk Member 8E45E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
    As for copying Ferrari, yeah, the stylists everywhere copied them in detail and in overall shapes.
    And GM went as far as to copy the 'GTO' name. I bet there would be a lawsuit if that happened today!!


    Craig

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    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8E45E View Post
    And GM went as far as to copy the 'GTO' name. I bet there would be a lawsuit if that happened today!!


    Craig
    Gran Turismo Omologato but some people back then called it the Garbage Truck Option.

    John Z. DeLorean's 1964 Pontiac GTO, that some people consider to be the first muscle car.

    I don't have the TW article.

    Lower pic...1957/66 Styleside bed.

    20180616055441AF-7698.jpg

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    Weren't Ford buying Ferrari around that time until Enzo pulled out ?

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    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63r2 View Post
    Weren't Ford buying Ferrari around that time until Enzo pulled out ?
    "The Deuce" (Henry Ford II) attempted to buy Ferrari, but Enzo changed his mind. Then The Deuce hired Carroll Shelby and the rest, as they say, is history.

  33. #33
    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    My guess is around 64 for the attempted buyout. Just checked....it was may of 63. As an aside, the first Cobras were 62 models I believe.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    President Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Carroll Shelby originally wanted to use small-block Chevy engines for his Cobras but GM wasn't about to sell their engines to someone who would compete against the Corvette...so Shelby went to Ford who was just bringing out their small block 260 and they were happy to sell him engines.
    Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

  35. #35
    President Member WinM1895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Carroll Shelby originally wanted to use small-block Chevy engines for his Cobras but GM wasn't about to sell their engines to someone who would compete against the Corvette...so Shelby went to Ford who was just bringing out their small block 260 and they were happy to sell him engines.
    221/260 introduced in 1962 Fairlane/Meteor. 289 introduced in 1963 Galaxie/Fairlane/Meteor.

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