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Thread: Electric fuel pump? Balderdash!

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    Electric fuel pump? Balderdash!

    57 Commander 259.....sat for 42 days, started after 18 second crank. (10 seconds, pause, 8 seconds more). Carb and fuel pump restored by Dave T. All you “I need an electric fuel pump” guys, nonsense.
    Last edited by tim333; 06-07-2018 at 09:40 PM.

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    President Member StudeNewby's Avatar
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    10216622.jpg...................
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    I would not be too happy with an 18 second crank time. That's a lot of cranking without decent oil pressure.
    With an electric fuel pump, mine starts in about 1 or 2 seconds. Then it has good oil pressure and is not killing the battery, or killing the starter, or killing the ring gear, or killing the bendix, or killing the ignition switch, or killing starter solenoid. If you get my drift.
    Also, the electric pump will not blow out its diaphram and pump gasoline into the oil supply, thus killing the engine to death. Electric pumps don't do that either.
    Mechanical pumps were used cuz they were cheap and easy, not because they were the best choice.
    Most mechanical parts on cars are installed for thier economy of use. In other words, dictated by the bean counters, not by the engineers.
    Or else, why would all 6 cylinder cars have smaller, cheaper, and lousier brakes than the V8 cars?
    The cars weigh nearly the same.
    The braking energy required to stop a 6 cylinder car is virtually the same as needed for a V8 car.
    But a 6 cylinder, economy car buyer does not want to spend as much money to purchase as does a V8 buyer.
    The 6 brakes are much cheaper to manufacture and to install, but still quite inferior to the larger brakes.
    That is something determined by accountants, not engineers.
    The engineer's task is to take the dictate from the "boss" and make it work.
    Safety be-damned sometimes.
    sals54

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    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sals54 View Post
    I would not be too happy with an 18 second crank time. That's a lot of cranking without decent oil pressure.
    With an electric fuel pump, mine starts in about 1 or 2 seconds. Then it has good oil pressure and is not killing the battery, or killing the starter, or killing the ring gear, or killing the bendix, or killing the ignition switch, or killing starter solenoid. If you get my drift.
    Also, the electric pump will not blow out its diaphram and pump gasoline into the oil supply, thus killing the engine to death. Electric pumps don't do that either.
    Mechanical pumps were used cuz they were cheap and easy, not because they were the best choice.
    Most mechanical parts on cars are installed for thier economy of use. In other words, dictated by the bean counters, not by the engineers.
    Or else, why would all 6 cylinder cars have smaller, cheaper, and lousier brakes than the V8 cars?
    The cars weigh nearly the same.
    The braking energy required to stop a 6 cylinder car is virtually the same as needed for a V8 car.
    But a 6 cylinder, economy car buyer does not want to spend as much money to purchase as does a V8 buyer.
    The 6 brakes are much cheaper to manufacture and to install, but still quite inferior to the larger brakes.
    That is something determined by accountants, not engineers.
    The engineer's task is to take the dictate from the "boss" and make it work.
    Safety be-damned sometimes.
    Agree Sal,
    But the OP only starts his car every 42 days, so he can probably make do with an OEM type pump. LOL

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    President Member TWChamp's Avatar
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    I agree that 18 seconds is a long cranking time, and I'd prime the carb if it sat long enough to go dry. Good points about the electric pump being able to prime, plus not pump raw gas into the engine oil.

    My 50 Land Cruiser has the original dual diaphram mechanical pump with the new ethanol resistant fuel pump diaphram, and so far it's working great. This car starts the second I hit the starter button, and it's at least as fast or faster than my modern car at starting. Hope it keeps up, and I might even go back to the original fuel pump for my 1950 Champion, but I will certainly keep an eye on it for leaking gas into the oil, and also for oil spitting out the fuel pump breather holes. Both of these have been a problem on the Champion in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim333 View Post
    57 Commander 259.....sat for 42 days, started after 18 second crank. Carb and fuel pump restored by Dave T. All you “I need an electric fuel pump” guys, nonsense.
    Ok, I'm happy for you. In my case I spend winter in the South and my Stock-Speedster stays in the North so it doesnt start for 6 months, that's 180 days. I have an electric pump I use to prime the carb. It's a known fact that "cold-starts" add considerable wear on an engine so I avoid them. Once started after it's winter rest my Stude starts as quick as any modern car.

    What you're calling nonsense is IMHO just a misunderstanding of how different people use their cars and how stressful a start with low oil pressure can be. I wish you well.
    Murray
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    Agree Sal,
    But the OP only starts his car every 42 days, so he can probably make do with an OEM type pump. LOL
    And that only averages out to 0.4285714285714286 seconds cranking per day. LOL Nothing like putting a heavy cranking on a battery that sat for 42 days. To each their own, but I feel the electric fuel pumps I've added to my cars are at the top of improvements I've done to make the ownership pleasurable. $100 for a new battery was not in my logic. Hence, pulling the fuel line, connecting a hose with a funnel, dumping gas in, removing, reconnecting and putting everything back took 10-15 minutes. Or..., I can flip a switch, wait about 5 seconds and be on my way. And..., having a ready installed, back up fuel pump. Priceless!
    Last edited by wittsend; 06-08-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

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    President Member bensherb's Avatar
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    He aslo likely gets much better fuel in Illinois than we get here in California Sal.

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    I beg to differ. Cranking 1-2 seconds has far LESS oil pressure than a longer crank. The oil pump is turning while cranking.

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    President Member StudeNewby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim333 View Post
    I beg to differ. Cranking 1-2 seconds has far LESS oil pressure than a longer crank. The oil pump is turning while cranking.
    ...but 18 seconds is some serious wear on the starter. Even 59-year-old cars should start faster than that. Just my opinion.
    Mike Davis
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim333 View Post
    I beg to differ. Cranking 1-2 seconds has far LESS oil pressure than a longer crank. The oil pump is turning while cranking.


    ??? In either scenario the first few seconds get the exact same wear. What argument is being made? For the first few seconds both situations are equal. Now, what happens after the engine starts in 1-2 seconds (as opposed to 16 seconds more cranking)?

    Let's see, using the numbers in this case it has a rapid rise in oil pressure AND volume 16 seconds earlier than the 18 second long crank. The long crank while eventually attaining some oil pressure just doesn't measure up to the near instantaneous rise with the quick start. And as mentioned above long cranking puts significant wear on other parts. There is just no advantage to long cranking.
    Last edited by wittsend; 06-07-2018 at 09:11 PM.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    Agree Sal,
    But the OP only starts his car every 42 days, so he can probably make do with an OEM type pump. LOL
    Back in the day I would leave both, the Avanti and Power Hawk unstarted for a year or more. Usually when I finally got "roundtuit" a ten second crank, let it set for ten or fifteen seconds then hit the starter again both would start up. BTW, both cars had excellent oil pressure after a second or two of cranking. But this was during the days of "real gas," not the crap that we are stuck with these days.

    Hence the addition of an electric pump into the circuit is almost mandatory. A second consideration is the occurrence of vapor lock due the same crappy fuel's tendency to vaporize at low temperatures. For those two reasons, any Studebaker that I still own or might own in the future will have an electric pump...

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    President Member bensherb's Avatar
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    How many new cars built in the last 20 years use mechanical fuel pumps?

    The fuel sold today, at least in California, is not designed to work with open fuel systems, mechanical pumps or carbruetors. Hence the need for an electric fuel pump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bensherb View Post
    How many new cars built in the last 20 years use mechanical fuel pumps?

    The fuel sold today, at least in California, is not designed to work with open fuel systems, mechanical pumps or carbruetors. Hence the need for an electric fuel pump.
    The real reason for cars using electric fuel pumps is fuel injection. However I like electric pumps on cars with carburetors.
    David L

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    And, some older carbureted cars like my Studebaker "time period" '65 Sunbeam Tiger came from the factory with ONLY an electric fuel pump. There is a block off plate where a mechanical pump usually went. That takes all the joy out of continuous cranking!
    Last edited by wittsend; 06-08-2018 at 12:50 PM.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

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    President Member StudeNewby's Avatar
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    But the OP used the word "balderdash", and frankly, that has to count for something. (Pretty darned cool...)
    Mike Davis
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    I just strive to keep my cars stock and shudder at those who take the easy way out instead of trying to fix what’s broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim333 View Post
    I just strive to keep my cars stock and shudder at those who take the easy way out instead of trying to fix what’s broken.
    Well, if you have a ready supply of 1965 gasoline, go for it.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim333 View Post
    I just strive to keep my cars stock and shudder at those who take the easy way out instead of trying to fix what’s broken.
    Sir, you are entirely entitled to keep YOUR car stock. But, trying to "fix what's broken" as you say isn't possible when there is nothing "broken." It is the evaporative properties of today's fuel and sitting for long periods of time. Those of us who chose to, if I can use the word, "fix" it do so with an electric fuel pump. And to us it is not "nonsense." It is wisdom.

    Had you simply said, 'I prefer to keep MY car stock and don't mind cranking it for 18 seconds before it starts,' then I don't think so many would have felt they had been harassed for electing to use an electric fuel pump.
    Last edited by wittsend; 06-09-2018 at 12:08 AM.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

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    I’m putting an electric fuel pump in my ‘63 Hawk because I want to drive it. Starting it,even after a long period of time isn’t a big issue. It’s keeping my Hawk drivable and not having it vapor lock while in traffic here in Denver on a 90 degree day. Once up to temp, my Hawk will begin to vapor lock if I sit at a stop light for more than a minute on any day over 75 degrees. Back in the day when we had “real” gas I never had any problems with it vapor locking. But now that times are different, the original mechanical fuel pump just won’t cut it. An electric pump is the only way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoHawk View Post
    I’m putting an electric fuel pump in my ‘63 Hawk because I want to drive it. Starting it,even after a long period of time isn’t a big issue. It’s keeping my Hawk drivable and not having it vapor lock while in traffic here in Denver on a 90 degree day. Once up to temp, my Hawk will begin to vapor lock if I sit at a stop light for more than a minute on any day over 75 degrees. Back in the day when we had “real” gas I never had any problems with it vapor locking. But now that times are different, the original mechanical fuel pump just won’t cut it. An electric pump is the only way to go.
    exactly the issue...case in point, yesterday nice and warm about 85 F temp and truck was acting funky in traffic at traffic lights waiting because of road construction issues, decided to turn on electric fuel pump and all was well. Got home, lifted hood with engine running and watched fuel boil in glass fuel filter and pressure gage needle fluttering...flipped on fuel pump and in a matter of a few seconds no boiling fuel in filter, rock-steady fuel pressure, and steady idle. My car, with much higher underhood temps than my truck, has no mechanical pump, only electric pump has never demonstrated any issues in traffic no matter what the outside temperature is. To Tim333...do you drive your car on warm days in rush hour traffic, if you do how come your car has no issues with boiling fuel? cheers, junior

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    President Member TWChamp's Avatar
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    I wonder if anyone here has tried adding a quart of diesel fuel to a tank of 10% ethanol crap gas?
    I've read that someone tried it with good results to eliminate the easy boiling of today's gas.
    I plan to try it if I'm on a trip and can't find the better gas without corn crap in it.

    My Model A with gravity feed has boiling and vapor lock problems when using the 10% crap gas, but runs fine on the better gas without corn crap.
    Ethanol took out my stock 50 Champion pump in MI, so I had to install an electric pump to get home, and I still use the electric pump, but the gas still boils in the carb and floods the engine during short stops, like 5 to 30 minutes. I added a heat shield to the carb mount, and that helped a lot, but still isn't perfect like the 60's and 70's driving was.

    Now, here is the real puzzler. So far my 1950 Land Cruiser with it's stock pump has been absolutely perfect as far as gas goes, even when using the corn crap on the 650 mile drive home. The engine is running the instant I touch the starter button, whether it's the first start in 3 days, or a hot restart. I always use 4 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil to each 10 gallons of gas, and double it if I get stuck with corn gas.

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    In the last 40 years, never had any problems with stock engines in my 36 and 47 Fords as well as my 57 Commander. Just sayin.

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    Apparently some here disagree, and see the 18 second cranking as a "problem".

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    I have one vehicle right now that has an electric pump. After using it now for 6 months I am seriously thinking of putting one in each of the others. that &/or the FITech fuel injection system.
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    I have NO idea why it is that several of you here "Think" it is a good thing for a Car to sit 30-45 Days and then just flip a Electric Fuel Pump Switch and ...like Magic it fires RIGHT up!

    No, that is a bad thing, I always crank the engine until the Mechanical Pump fills the Line and Carb. and starts.
    I don't care if it is 10, 15, 18 or 20 Seconds, I never timed it. The Oil Pressure will be UP and Oil circulated and all is good, not Bad as with method #1. That is what GOOD Starters and Batteries do, no harm is done from that.
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    Thanks Rich.

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    To each his own,,, and you have to pronounce that cool word properly to get the full effect. Luck Doofus

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    Quote Originally Posted by TWChamp View Post
    ...10% ethanol crap gas.....easy boiling of today's gas...... gas without corn crap in it.

    .....corn crap....the corn crap..... corn gas.

    Blah, blah, blah.

    I can clearly remember when, on good ole regular gas, there were cars stalled from vapor lock every time the temp was above 90 degrees.

    Drive down any road, on any day. How any stalled cars do you see? Virtually none. What are they running? 10 or 15 percent ethanol. The fact that your ancient clunker gives trouble rests with the mechanic, not the fuel.

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    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnormanh View Post
    Blah, blah, blah.

    I can clearly remember when, on good ole regular gas, there were cars stalled from vapor lock every time the temp was above 90 degrees.

    Drive down any road, on any day. How any stalled cars do you see? Virtually none. What are they running? 10 or 15 percent ethanol. The fact that your ancient clunker gives trouble rests with the mechanic, not the fuel.
    Yes, no maybe. Let me clarify. The cars today ALL use a highly pressurized closed fuel system of at least 35 psi at the injectors. The gas we buy.....corn crap or not, won't boil at those pressures. Use it in an open non pressurized fuel system, is where the problems manifest themselves. Isolate any heat from any fuel source, and run a recirculating bypass system, and you can successfully run todays fuel formulations.
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    Lots of different opinions here, which is what makes the forum interesting. I do think that there is one indisputable fact, and that is, if your rubber, gas related parts are not ethanol compatible, they will swell up and turn to mush. I have seen this on fuel pump diaphrams, and older rubber fuel hose. The first few years of ethanol fuel played hell on all of my gas powered tools, until I figured out that it was easy enough to put regular fuel in them.

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    Funny, I agree. You don't see many cars vapor lock these days. I have even found quite a few counter people in the local auto parts stores that have no idea what I'm talking about, but one thing was overlooked in the above response. How many of the cars on the road today don't have an electric pump?

    I also noticed most of the people who talk down to electric drive in real heat? Here in Dallas the temp has been in the mid to high 90's for two weeks now and the weather forecast shows every day for the next two weeks to be the same. Welcome to summer in north Texas.

    My 50 land cruiser came from Minnesota and the first day the temp hit 92 here it died. Gas in the filter was boiling.

    This was common in the 50's thru 70's and electric pumps were a common fix.

    Also, alcohol has a lower boiling point. Back in the WWII days antifreeze was hard to get and alcohol was a common sub. However most people removed there thermostat to keep the alcohol from boiling.

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    So...let me see if I've got this right. Saving wear and tear on your starter and battery and firing your engine sooner is Balderdash? I'll stick with my electric pump to prime my carb, bolderdash be dammed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bezhawk View Post
    Yes, no maybe. Let me clarify. The cars today ALL use a highly pressurized closed fuel system of at least 35 psi at the injectors. The gas we buy.....corn crap or not, won't boil at those pressures. Use it in an open non pressurized fuel system, is where the problems manifest themselves. Isolate any heat from any fuel source, and run a recirculating bypass system, and you can successfully run todays fuel formulations.
    ALL? No. I own a '59 Sprite that never vapor locks. The pump on it is 3 psi. Neither do any of the other mechanically pumped, carbureted cars in the club. Nor do any of my small engines.

    Crap corn gas is a YADADYADAYADA excuse for poorly maintained cars.

  35. #35
    President Member TWChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnormanh View Post
    ALL? No. I own a '59 Sprite that never vapor locks. The pump on it is 3 psi. Neither do any of the other mechanically pumped, carbureted cars in the club. Nor do any of my small engines.

    Crap corn gas is a YADADYADAYADA excuse for poorly maintained cars.
    I keep all my cars in top notch mechanical condition (been a mechanic for over 50 years), so you tell me why my Model A and Studebaker Champion have boiling gas problems when I use crap gas. Bez gave you the answer about today's cars not having vapor lock, and all the good mechanics and marinas also know about the bad things crap gas does. Maybe the gas you buy doesn't have 10 or 15% corn crap in it. BTW, I never had vapor lock in my life until corn crap was put in gas, and I drove in 100 degree Texas heat for 3 years.

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    Hear hear,
    Anyone notice most new cars came out wit electric fuel pumps about the time lead was removed and later corn squeezing was added. Things really went down hill from there. But we can sure breath better (if we are in the north woods or on a pacific island).

    Ethanol has less energy, gets lower mileage, reduces horsepower, boils at a lower temp, absorbs water, destroys fuel pumps and carbs and cost us more. There is a reason it's not in airplane fuel.

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