Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 62

Thread: Still using a ton of oil

  1. #1
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362

    Still using a ton of oil

    My 64 wagon 289 was using about a quart of oil in about 100 miles. I finally bit the bullet and overhauled the engine. Now I probably have about 500 miles on rebuild and it is still using about the same amount. I just drove it to a car show 124 miles and it used a quart. So after spending over $2,000 I still have the very same problem. Seems like an unlikely coincidence that oil consumption is roughly the same. There must be a hidden problem that's being overlooked.

  2. #2
    Champion Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    flesselles, , France.
    Posts
    12
    i think you should check your valve stem seals , what kind have you got.... umbrella...

  3. #3
    President Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada.
    Posts
    539
    Is the oil leaking or being burned? If leaking that much, there should be oil dripping when the car is stopped after the engine is warmed up and at operating speed. If being burned, there should be lots of blue smoke coming out the tailpipe.

    What weight of engine oil is being used? Too light a weight may increase consumption, as can switching to synthetic oil on a high-mileage engine.

    Is there an oil line from the engine to the oil pressure gauge? If so, a lot of oil can be lost when the rubber section of this line springs a leak. This source of this type of leak may be obvious only when the engine is revved to operating r.p.m., although there will be lots of evidence from oil spread around the engine compartment.

    Not being a mechanic, I will leave it to the experts to describe the problems there may be within the engine.
    Bill Jarvis

  4. #4
    President Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    940
    I had a similar issue with the Power Hawk as it would leak on the right side of the bell housing thus suspected either a rear seal, (a rarity), or the pan gaskets. There was no evidence of dampness top side but it sure would leave a trail when moving.

    Turned out to be a not properly tightened pressure line into the head so the leak was top side but not evidently so.

    One other possibility is a scored crank in the rear seal area assuming that the original crank was retained. Another possibility is the omission of the small piece of cork associated with a rear seal replacement. Other suspects might be front seal but that would be readily evident as well.

    Good luck with your search...

  5. #5
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    6,082
    Specifically what was included in the $2000, "overhaul"?

  6. #6
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Hawthorne, California, USA.
    Posts
    1,869
    I'm thinking the rings for some reason aren't sealing due to improper installation or improper bore finish. It is also possible that the cylinder bores are either out of round, tapered or both which will cause an improper ring seal. If the engine has been rebuilt, then the valve guides and seals should have been serviced at that time. Even if the valve guides are the problem, they wouldn't allow enough oil into the upper cylinder to cause the engine to use a quart of oil every hundred miles. If there is an external leak, it should be evident as an engine that leaks a quart of oil every hundred miles will make a big mess. Bud

  7. #7
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    Specifically what was included in the $2000, "overhaul"?
    Block was hot tanked, bored 30 over, valve job, hard seats installed and pressure checked, valve guides were good, new cam bearings installed, crank turned and polished 10/10, rods checked for alignment. Probably not all

  8. #8
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    I thought maybe rings didn't seat. I did seating by speeding up from 30 to 50 then coaxing back down to 30. Did it about 10 times. Later when I saw that oil was down I took it out and in low gear wound engine up and then coasted another 10 to 12 times. Doesn't seem to be any smoke visible and certainly no leaking whatsoever.

  9. #9
    Commander Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Frostburg, MD, USA.
    Posts
    93
    If you used moly rings, it could take anywhere between 1,000 to 2,000 miles for the rings to seat and oil consumption to stop. The last engine that I rebuilt using moly rings stopped consuming oil somewhere around 1,500 miles.
    Randy Ridenour
    Frostburg,MD
    1964 GT Hawk

  10. #10
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Ridenour View Post
    If you used moly rings, it could take anywhere between 1,000 to 2,000 miles for the rings to seat and oil consumption to stop. The last engine that I rebuilt using moly rings stopped consuming oil somewhere around 1,500 miles.
    No, the rings were regular cast iron.

  11. #11
    President Member swvalcon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    princeton mn
    Posts
    2,971
    Rings may not be seated yet. Depends on how far you have driven it at one time. I built a 302 ford for a older gentleman and he said after about a year it was still using oil so when he went on a 300 mile trip to visit family he put a case of oil in the trunk. Used a qt on the way to where he was going and said it never used any on the way home and never used any between oil changes after that. All he used it for before that was to go a couple blocks to the store so this was the first time in over a year it had gotten hot enough for some distance to seat the rings and they where cast. Some motors just seem to be harder to seat.

  12. #12
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    6,082
    Wow, you got a heck of a deal on the overhaul. Last 289 I rebuilt was about 4-5 years ago, and the parts and machine shop labor cost around $3000.

    The cast iron rings shoulda seated in less than 1000 miles, without any special procedures, other than driving it. How many miles have you driven it since the rebuild? How many miles did you drive it before the rebuild? What are your driving patterns, i.e. short trips, long trips? What speeds are you moving at. What is the gearing, and final drive ratio? What weight is the oil? What is the average engine temp?

    Only 100 miles per quart, before and after rebuild, is a mystery. There is no magic to old Studes, they are about same tech as farm machinery of the same era. If it ain't leaking out the bottom, nor coming out the tail pipe, its gotta be going somewhere. I have never had a Stude motor get much less than 500 miles per quart, no matter how worn or neglected.

    It will be interesting to hear what the problem turns out to be. Please keep us posted.

  13. #13
    President Member TWChamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    4,674
    Any oil coming out the fuel pump vent holes?
    Seems to be a fairly common problem, at least for the last two Studebakers I bought.

  14. #14
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Spokane, WA, USA.
    Posts
    8,117
    So after spending over $2,000 I still have the very same problem.
    Today, $2000 buys a patch job and not a rebuilt engine. From what you listed, you got way more than your money's worth, but didn't fix the problem.

    A key indicator is
    valve guides were good.
    We've never torn down a Studebaker with valve guides or valves good enough to reuse. There is no way to know the condition or clearance of yours, or what valve stem seals were used. Down the worn valve guides past worn valve stems is the most likely path for oil to get out.

    Does the engine feel a lot stronger after the rework?

    jack vines
    PackardV8

  15. #15
    Commander Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Belvidere, il
    Posts
    36
    Do you have any blowby coming out of the road draft tube?
    My 289 tried pumping oil out that tube with the engine the way it was before I rebuilt it.
    It was caused by the previous owner putting STD rings in a 0.30 over bore.

  16. #16
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    here, sometimes somewhere else
    Posts
    5,701
    Wrong PCV valve Aftermarket replacements are reversed in flow than the Studebaker correct ones. That can contribute to oil consumption. Especially if rings are not seated properly yet. If the oil rings work fine, but the compression rings not seated yet, you will get high crankcase pressure, and not always see smoke.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

  17. #17
    Golden Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Wappingers Falls, New York, USA.
    Posts
    21,017
    Quote Originally Posted by Galactica5 View Post
    Do you have any blowby coming out of the road draft tube?
    My 289 tried pumping oil out that tube with the engine the way it was before I rebuilt it.
    It was caused by the previous owner putting STD rings in a 0.30 over bore.
    It is a 1964 - no road draft tube.
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

  18. #18
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by bezhawk View Post
    Wrong PCV valve Aftermarket replacements are reversed in flow than the Studebaker correct ones. That can contribute to oil consumption. Especially if rings are not seated properly yet. If the oil rings work fine, but the compression rings not seated yet, you will get high crankcase pressure, and not always see smoke.
    PCV is correct double checked that when looking for oil use causes before.

  19. #19
    President Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Little Rock Ar
    Posts
    1,302
    I'll put my money on worn guides and "Umbrella seals". Luck Doofus

  20. #20
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    6,082
    Quote Originally Posted by doofus View Post
    I'll put my money on worn guides and "Umbrella seals". Luck Doofus
    Maybe worn guides, but there's nothing wrong with umbrella seals. I have used them exclusively in 259/289/352 motors, and have gotten over 5000 miles per quart, and most always stay above 2000 miles per quart. This includes the two GTs and one 56J currently in the stable.

    Worn guides would be indicated by blue smoke on acceleration, and ring problems would be indicated by blue smoke on deceleration. Unless I missed something, the OP really has not provided much, as far as symptoms he is experiencing, other than the oil is mysteriously disappearing, seemingly without a trace of smoke, leaks, blowby, etc..

    As for 100 miles per quart, it would be hard to screw up even a shade tree overhaul that badly.

    PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT: If the OP has only driven the car 124 miles since the overhaul, nothing he said counts, since the motor has not even began to wear itself in. Hope he comes back after another 1000 miles, with another report.
    Last edited by JoeHall; 05-28-2018 at 07:46 AM.

  21. #21
    Champion Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florence Alabama
    Posts
    13
    Best indicator for worn valve guides/seals, is smoke on startup.
    If I had your problem, I would use a quality NON DETERGENT motor oil and seat rings like this ---
    Go to an area that has a long hill and down hill.
    Put transmission in highest gear, if standard shift, that will work on hill, when top of hill is reached, coast down in lower gear.
    Just don't overheat engine!
    After several times, drain ND oil and install your regular oil.

    This is the procedure I used on every rebuild.

  22. #22
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    mass
    Posts
    3,745
    just a long shot.... are you positive the dip stick is A-OK ?? Just a thought... sometimes its the craziest thing...

  23. #23
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    First off I miss guessed the mileage I had on engine. Checked this afternoon and discovered I have only driven 544 miles including 124 miles each way to car show. When I checked oil at car show it was just a little above the add a quart mark, when I put oil in before leaving I added just a little too much. So before leaving car show I poured in part of a quart, apparently little over 3/4 of the quart in but was in a hurry so I didn't check the dipstick. Now this afternoon I checked the oil and it's a little over the full mark. So apparently it did not burn an excessive amount on the trip back. I will have to watch and see what happens now. There was a pretty good amount of uphill/downhill driving back and fourth to car show. Possibly coasting downhill could have helped seat the rings. Wont know for sure until I do some more driving. Next car show in 2 weeks will be about 85 miles or so round trip.

  24. #24
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    1,830
    Quote Originally Posted by rbigcal View Post
    First off I miss guessed the mileage I had on engine. Checked this afternoon and discovered I have only driven 544 miles including 124 miles each way to car show. When I checked oil at car show it was just a little above the add a quart mark, when I put oil in before leaving I added just a little too much. So before leaving car show I poured in part of a quart, apparently little over 3/4 of the quart in but was in a hurry so I didn't check the dipstick. Now this afternoon I checked the oil and it's a little over the full mark. So apparently it did not burn an excessive amount on the trip back. I will have to watch and see what happens now. There was a pretty good amount of uphill/downhill driving back and fourth to car show. Possibly coasting downhill could have helped seat the rings. Wont know for sure until I do some more driving. Next car show in 2 weeks will be about 85 miles or so round trip.
    If I followed that correctly, you don't know now whether it's using a significant amount of oil or not.

    At 100 miles per quart, it's either blowing clouds of blue smoke out the exhaust or leaving big puddles where it's parked.

    If it does neither, it's not using a quart per hundred miles. Check your true oil usage again.

    As far as seating rings, if they don't seat in the first hundred miles, they probably never will. It's possible to crack a ring during installation. If so, then a compression test will find the cylinder with the broken ring.

  25. #25
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    Well not sure about oil usage on the way home, but it was using a lot of oil before. I have had to put oil in it 3 or 4 times since engine was rebuilt each time about 100 or little more miles. No clouds of smoke, no leaking.

  26. #26
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Westbrook, MN
    Posts
    652
    62's had a crankcase vent but it could have a pcv valve. I have seen those things act strange. If you have one, temporarally disconnect it and plug vac hole in carb base. If oil burning stops get a new one and be sure it is not backwards. If it is leaking you'll have a larger than normal puddle on the garage floor, and you can trace it. (pan gasket-they always need to be re-tightened rear main seal [they don't work as well when installed backwards] drain plug [no one ever replaces the drain plug seal] That oil must be going somewhere!!!! Does inside of tail pipe feel oily? If pressure is OK and temp is OK I would be inclined to drive it a while and see what happens. 17 yrs ago went to west Texas to pick up car. On the way home truck started smoking-a lot. Pulled into WalMart and got a case of oil. Used most of it on the trip home. It just as abrptly stopped using oil and never burned any oil after that. Total mystery to me.

  27. #27
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    6,082
    Quote Originally Posted by rbigcal View Post
    Well not sure about oil usage on the way home, but it was using a lot of oil before. I have had to put oil in it 3 or 4 times since engine was rebuilt each time about 100 or little more miles. No clouds of smoke, no leaking.
    You have, "had to put oil in it...". But amount is key; HOW MUCH oil, total, have you put into it since the rebuild, 544 miles ago?

  28. #28
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    I had oil in 2 gallon container, so I used a plastic paint cup for measuring. It was a little over 28oz, so I put in 6 plus 15oz stp for the zddp content. I had to add a little more oil to get right to full mark. So I have since used up the rest of the 2 gal. container plus the part of a quart in dumped in before leaving car show. So I guess it didn't use as much as I thought, still quite a bit seems like to me. It's hard to get it right on the full mark without going a little over.

  29. #29
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    mass
    Posts
    3,745
    if the PCV is non-functioning, you might see condensation on the dipstick.

  30. #30
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    6,082
    Quote Originally Posted by rbigcal View Post
    I had oil in 2 gallon container, so I used a plastic paint cup for measuring. It was a little over 28oz, so I put in 6 plus 15oz stp for the zddp content. I had to add a little more oil to get right to full mark. So I have since used up the rest of the 2 gal. container plus the part of a quart in dumped in before leaving car show. So I guess it didn't use as much as I thought, still quite a bit seems like to me. It's hard to get it right on the full mark without going a little over.
    Wait, you put a can of STP in a newly rebuilt engine??????
    Last edited by JoeHall; 05-30-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  31. #31
    President Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Above the Equator
    Posts
    1,849
    Maybe rather than look under the car (at the ground) look under the car at the underside of the floorboards. My Valiant had a leak where the valve body lever came through the case. I never saw trans fluid leaking on the ground. But once underway it spread out and clung to the bottom of the car. I was losing about a quart of ATF every 25 or so miles! I couldn't figure out where "SO MUCH" fluid was going without showing. As the price of ATF increased upward I eventually fixed the seal. Now no loss. So, look up and see if the leak is showing.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

  32. #32
    Speedster Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lindsay, California
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    Wait, you put a can of STP in a newly rebuilt engine??????
    Yes I did after reading about the importance of zddp in break in oil. I read so much about it my head felt like it was going to explode. Everybody's got a different idea. Stp was about the only thing here locally that had zddp. I have never used additives unless it was in something that was on its last leg, but decided to do it this time. I was going to run this oil for a while and then change it. I thought since Studebaker put STP in the engines from the factory it couldn't hurt much.

  33. #33
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    6,082
    Quote Originally Posted by rbigcal View Post
    Yes I did after reading about the importance of zddp in break in oil. I read so much about it my head felt like it was going to explode. Everybody's got a different idea. Stp was about the only thing here locally that had zddp. I have never used additives unless it was in something that was on its last leg, but decided to do it this time. I was going to run this oil for a while and then change it. I thought since Studebaker put STP in the engines from the factory it couldn't hurt much.
    I have rebuilt about a dozen 259/289/352 Stude motors, and driven them a collective total of well over 700,000 miles. Have never used any additive for break in, other than assembly lube during reassembly. For break in, I use cheap 10W30, i.e. WalMart brand, then change it after about 1000 miles. Chrome rings will take up to 3000 miles to seat well enough for upper RPM ( around 2800 and above) blow by to cease. But with molly or cast rings, 100-500 miles, and all is well. I believe STP would delay break in, due to it being slicker than snot on a door knob. The microscopic ridges on the rings scrub into the cylinder walls, so I believe the extra slickness would be a problem, but could be wrong. Once broken in I use Mobil 1, 15W50, then do oil & filter changes every 10,000 miles.

  34. #34
    Golden Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Wappingers Falls, New York, USA.
    Posts
    21,017
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffry Cassel View Post
    62's had a crankcase vent but it could have a pcv valve. I have seen those things act strange. If you have one, temporarally disconnect it and plug vac hole in carb base. If oil burning stops get a new one and be sure it is not backwards. If it is leaking you'll have a larger than normal puddle on the garage floor, and you can trace it. (pan gasket-they always need to be re-tightened rear main seal [they don't work as well when installed backwards] drain plug [no one ever replaces the drain plug seal] That oil must be going somewhere!!!! Does inside of tail pipe feel oily? If pressure is OK and temp is OK I would be inclined to drive it a while and see what happens. 17 yrs ago went to west Texas to pick up car. On the way home truck started smoking-a lot. Pulled into WalMart and got a case of oil. Used most of it on the trip home. It just as abrptly stopped using oil and never burned any oil after that. Total mystery to me.
    The original post states that the car is a 1964, not "62", so it has a PCV valve/system.
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

  35. #35
    President Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    british columbia
    Posts
    1,160
    When an engine has been hot tanked and all the internal cast surfaces are bare it will consume about a quart of oil to re-create an oil film over all the parts. I had the same thing happen, a quality rebuild and the first 100 or so miles consumed a quart. I returned to the shop and was informed that the engine will consume about a quart in the first 100 miles for film.

  36. #36
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    mass
    Posts
    3,745
    never heard the "film" theory..... interesting

  37. #37
    President Member WCP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Glenburnie, Ontario, Canada.
    Posts
    1,501
    I suspect that you are over-filling the engine with oil and the excess quart is being blown out in the first 100 miles or so. By filling to the mark on your dipstick, you are not allowing for the oil that never drains from the engine. The 6 qt. US amount is only valid on a totally oil-free engine such as the first fill after a tear down or rebuild. After a run,if your oil level is at the add mark, continue to drive the vehicle. Check the oil level as often as you think necessary, but from my experience, the level will not change in the next 1000 or so miles. As long as the oil pressure remains normal, you should not do any harm to the engine.
    As an after thought, make sure that the base of the engine pan has not been flattened or pushed inward by resting the engine on the pan base or jacking the engine upward during installation. This will raise the oil level increase loss by crankshaft windage.

  38. #38
    President Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Above the Equator
    Posts
    1,849
    Then there is the Bon Ami, '55 Chevy 265 ring re-seat story. Maybe Geraldo Rivera can find that GM service bulletin in Al Capone's vault? Urban Legend? I search for a verifiable story and basically found a lot of, "someone told me ..."
    Last edited by wittsend; 05-31-2018 at 04:38 PM.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

  39. #39
    President Member E. Davis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Great Falls, Montana, USA.
    Posts
    705
    Couldn't agree with WCP more. Its an old wives tale that you need to keep an engine at the full mark on the dip stick. Many engines will throw as much as a quart out and never go any lower. Running an engine a little low on oil is better than running it over full. My 289 has never accepted running on the full mark...it seeks its on comfort level and never uses any more. With the price of oil as one factor and the engines own compunction for getting rid of it I only put in a little over 5 quarts with a filter change and that seems to satisfy it.

  40. #40
    Golden Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Wappingers Falls, New York, USA.
    Posts
    21,017
    A 1964 only has a 5.0 quart capacity.

    Perhaps the OP is not giving the engine time to drain down before doing an oil level check.
    A bent in oil pan can change the level itself and can also cause an invalid dipstick reading. Check that the oil pan was not bent when the engine was rebuilt.
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •