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  1. #1
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    Brake pedal pad

    I had my hydrovac fail three yrs ago, had it rebuilt and decided to upgrade the chassis mounted m/c with a Turner dual. This, with the hydrovac have not been sucessfull, a hard pedal and no ability for a panic stop. Read a thousand posts, tried a thousand things, ive had it with the brakes from Hell on the Hawk. Had much help from the club, many suggestions and responses, however somehow “ALL” this info had been deleted and the Forum doesn’t know why.
    I decided to put the original m/c back in, along with the distrubtor block and front and rear RPV’s and hope for the best.
    In adjusting the pedal travel, the manual recommends 1/4” to 3/8” free travel from the pedal pad before the stroke begins. Problem is theres no pad on the car and I’d like to know the thickness so i can adjust the pedal stroke. I can make a quess and install a substitute for the pad.
    The brakes on this car have cost considerable $$$$$ and enormous amount of time, im ready to give up and sell it withno brakes......thanks...dis-hearted.

  2. #2
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    All that is necessary is that there is enough free play at the pedal so that the piston in the master cylinder is not depressed at all when the pedal is released.

  3. #3
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    Thanks, figured that might be easy enough. Wasn’t sure if there were critical measurements.

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    Thanks, figured that might be easy enough. Wasn’t sure if there were critical measurements.
    Last edited by BrianC; 05-13-2018 at 07:21 PM.

  5. #5
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    I presently have a 10# RPV for the rear drums from the distributor block. I had a 2# PRV form the Hydrovac to the front discs, but now that its plumbed back to original and that RPV is at the output of the Hydrovac is going to the distributor block, im thinking this is wrong? In order to use RPV up front i would either have to plumb it different or put one in for each front wheel.
    I’m thinking that this extra 2 lbs of pressure is wrong? Do i really need a RPV for the front or will the Hydrovac provide enough to keep the pads to the disc???

  6. #6
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    I feel your pain, with the substandard brakes, but must ask, if there is no pedal pad, how are you pressing the brakes?

    As for the 2# RPV coming off the output side of the HV, it is not likely a problem. However, to check it, push the brakes while sitting still in your driveway (transmission in neutral) then immediately get out and try to push the car. If it rolls freely, there's not enough residual pressure to affect brake drag. You can also check by coming to a stop on a slight incline. After pushing the brake pedal, if you take your foot off the brake, the car should start to roll again. Either way, you are checking for brake drag, when the pedal is NOT applied. Another way is to stop the car after a few miles, get out and use the back of your hand to feel for excess heat around the front rotors. (Do NOT use your fingertips to touch the rotors.)

    Perhaps you are expecting too much out of the brake system. What exactly do you expect it to do in a, "panic stop"? When moving how fast? If moving maybe 30 MPH or less, it should lock up in short order. If moving 50 MPH and up, is may haul down quickly, but may not lock the front wheels up.

    Pad and shoe materials can also determine the brake system's, "personality". There are materials that will turn any car's brakes into junk. And there are materials that will make the best of a marginal system. Generally, softer, quicker wearing pads perform the best. While those that last longer do not perform as well. I prefer very soft, with max initial grab, and minimal fade. I am currently using EBC, "Green Stuff" pads on two of the Hawks, and still using Hawk brand HPS (high performance street) on the 3rd Hawk. I can definitely tell a difference, and will someday get round to installing Green Stuff on the 3rd Hawk.

    Just rambling, I guess, but hope this helps.

    Also, see this thread: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...tuff-quot-Pads
    Last edited by JoeHall; 05-13-2018 at 08:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    The pedal pad im referring to is between the outside firewall and the pedal. They refer to i in the shop manual.
    The “panic stop” im referring to is at a low speed. I have a hard pedal with and have to use a very heavy foot to come to a stop. If i slam them, its a slow stop. Originally, when i first got the Hawk, the power brakes were better than newer models, hit it hard and you’re into the steering wheel. Pads and shoes are like new, wheel cylinders and calipers are good, no leaks, bleed it to death with no good results. So, if this experiment fails to get anything positive, I’ll have to take a serious at the Hydrovac again. Had it rebuilt but i hear so many people have had so many problems with them even after rebuilding.
    Thanks for the info, im fishing, hoping to find the AH-HA! Solution.

  8. #8
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    I am glad I have four NOS sets of Girling pads(and rear drum riveted) for my Avanti......nothing stops like good ol asbestos, and I have never has an issue with the stopping power of the Avanti
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    I feel your pain, with the substandard brakes, but must ask, if there is no pedal pad, how are you pressing the brakes?

    As for the 2# RPV coming off the output side of the HV, it is not likely a problem. However, to check it, push the brakes while sitting still in your driveway (transmission in neutral) then immediately get out and try to push the car. If it rolls freely, there's not enough residual pressure to affect brake drag. You can also check by coming to a stop on a slight incline. After pushing the brake pedal, if you take your foot off the brake, the car should start to roll again. Either way, you are checking for brake drag, when the pedal is NOT applied. Another way is to stop the car after a few miles, get out and use the back of your hand to feel for excess heat around the front rotors. (Do NOT use your fingertips to touch the rotors.)

    Perhaps you are expecting too much out of the brake system. What exactly do you expect it to do in a, "panic stop"? When moving how fast? If moving maybe 30 MPH or less, it should lock up in short order. If moving 50 MPH and up, is may haul down quickly, but may not lock the front wheels up.

    Pad and shoe materials can also determine the brake system's, "personality". There are materials that will turn any car's brakes into junk. And there are materials that will make the best of a marginal system. Generally, softer, quicker wearing pads perform the best. While those that last longer do not perform as well. I prefer very soft, with max initial grab, and minimal fade. I am currently using EBC, "Green Stuff" pads on two of the Hawks, and still using Hawk brand HPS (high performance street) on the 3rd Hawk. I can definitely tell a difference, and will someday get round to installing Green Stuff on the 3rd Hawk.

    Just rambling, I guess, but hope this helps.

    Also, see this thread: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...tuff-quot-Pads

  9. #9
    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    A Hard Pedal, with Power Brakes WITH a Hydrovac Booster, is most always a Bad Booster.

    However, IF you have the Original Single Master Cylinder for Drums and you have not removed the Residual Valve and Rubber Cushion in the back of the Bore as well as those other two RPV's?? They also are NOT needed with Rear Drums and Front Turner Discs.

    It should be no different than a stock '63 GT with Power Discs. IF you have the Dual Diaphragm Hydrovac for Discs.

    The only difference is, you MAY have self energizing Standard Drum Brakes in the rear (you can reverse the "Wedges") unless your Car HAD Power Discs to start with, OR you have replaced them with the Non-Self energizing Rear Drum setup for front Discs.

    ALL these "Issues" are why I would NEVER try to install Disc Brakes on a Drum Brake car with the under the floor Master Cylinder.

    My Turner Brakes work PERFECTLY on my '64 Daytona that HAD Factory Disc Brakes.
    The '63 to '66 Larks and Lark Types and Avantis with Power Discs make for a Sweet stopping Car, by converting to Turner Kits, and IMHO... THAT's IT!
    Last edited by StudeRich; 05-13-2018 at 10:54 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeRich View Post
    A Hard Pedal, with Power Brakes WITH a Hydrovac Booster, is most always a Bad Booster.

    However, IF you have the Original Single Master Cylinder for Drums and you have not removed the Residual Valve and Rubber Cushion in the back of the Bore as well as those other two RPV's?? They also are NOT needed with Rear Drums and Front Turner Discs.

    It should be no different than a stock '63 GT with Power Discs. IF you have the Dual Diaphragm Hydrovac for Discs.

    The only difference is, you MAY have self energizing Standard Drum Brakes in the rear (you can reverse the "Wedges") unless your Car HAD Power Discs to start with, OR you have replaced them with the Non-Self energizing Rear Drum setup for front Discs.

    ALL these "Issues" are why I would NEVER try to install Disc Brakes on a Drum Brake car with the under the floor Master Cylinder.

    My Turner Brakes work PERFECTLY on my '64 Daytona that HAD Factory Disc Brakes.
    The '63 to '66 Larks and Lark Types and Avantis with Power Discs make for a Sweet stopping Car, by converting to Turner Kits, and IMHO... THAT's IT!
    Don't understand your logic. I have had a couple of cars, Studebakers, that I swapped out the front drums for discs, not a Turner kit though. I have not had any trouble. My current Stude I used the original master, under floor, no other changes, no RPV's, no booster, no pulling anything out of the master, no problems. Why wouldn't you change to front discs? Simple.

    Len

  11. #11
    President Member 345 DeSoto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skybolt View Post
    Don't understand your logic. I have had a couple of cars, Studebakers, that I swapped out the front drums for discs, not a Turner kit though. I have not had any trouble. My current Stude I used the original master, under floor, no other changes, no RPV's, no booster, no pulling anything out of the master, no problems. Why wouldn't you change to front discs? Simple.

    Len
    Same here, on my Sky Hawk. Not problem #1...

  12. #12
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    This is front factory disc w/mc chassis mount. I fear the rebuild i had on the booster was woefully inadequarely done. Jsut about finished re-installing the original m/c, im trying anything and everything to slove this. Keeping my fingers crossed.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeRich View Post
    A Hard Pedal,

    ALL these "Issues" are why I would NEVER try to install Disc Brakes on a Drum Brake car with the under the floor Master Cylinder.
    I should have been more specific. This is the statement I was refering to.

    Other than that, the advice given from Rich is usualy sound.

    Len

    P.S. I have not had an original disc brake car so really can't help other than saying your original disc brake master is different than mine and so you may have trouble using it without a booster.
    Last edited by Skybolt; 05-26-2018 at 09:00 PM.

  14. #14
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    There does seem to be some occasional pissing and moaning about HydroVacs on this forum - but remember these are being successfully used every day by tens of thousands of industrial trucks and they must be doing their jobs satisfactorily.
    So their use goes far beyond being used by grumpy Studebaker Drivers. If If needs rebuilding or replacing - do it!

  15. #15
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    Listen to Stude Ricc! sounds like a bad booster,,,, Period. Luck Doofus

  16. #16
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    It always helps to tell us what car you are having problems with.
    Was it a disk brake 1963/64 Studebaker Hawk originally?
    These cars had a different Hydrovac that was problematic.
    Studebaker supplied an improvement kit for these.
    If it is a Subaru , I can not help you.

  17. #17
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    Again Brian , is it a Hawk or Lark?
    Different Hydrovacs!
    From your comments I deduct that it is a Hawk because only the Hawk used a MC on the frame.
    With Turner brakes , you do not need a booster.
    The OEM 1963/64 Hawk boosters need the improvement kit.
    Jim Turner gives excellent customer service and is easy to talk to , give him a ring

  18. #18
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    Sorry , thought i mentioned its 63 Hawk, front disc, rear drum. M/C on the frame and hydrorvac. I understood that the turner brake dual M/C resulted more effort and less braking power when installed without the booster? Thats why i had the booster rebuilt, probably a big mistake. I just finished re-plumbing and installing the original M/C, if the results from all this work aren’t positive, i just may go back to the Turner unit without the booster.
    Thanks to everyone for your input, this forum is invaluable.

  19. #19
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    Need to know something about the plumbing for the brakes on the 63 Hawk w/disc.
    I have the manuals for the 60-62, the 62-64, and the cahssis manual, in the manuals, i just this time noticed that the filler cap for the master under the floor does “not” have a line into it from the reservoir on the firewall? However this car does ? In the plumbing diagrams this isn’t illustrated? Also there is no mention of the resevoir on the firewall, just instructions on how to re-fill the one under the floor?
    According to the manuals, the rears are boosted from the junction block that supplies the front disc from the booster? I’ve been told from this forum the rears do not require boosting?
    Studebaker Intl. doesnt have a listing for this type filler cap?
    This set-up makes no sense seeing that according to the manuals the m/c should be filled within 1/2” from the top, with the supply from the firewall, it fills to the maximum ? The bronze gasket, no matter how good it is, will leak?
    This brings up the issue of booster failure, if it fails, there will also be no rear brakes? This happened to me and i had a bad accident as a result!
    So, what is the best way to plumb this archaic system, and are all the Hawks this way or is this something someone did to this car prior to my ownership?

  20. #20
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    I agree
    Turner dual master cylinder with one side going to the front Turner disk brake setup without booster and the other side going to the rear. No boosters nor check valves.
    All new brake lines and hoses, no skimping!

  21. #21
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    So what kind of line do i use from the supply to the dual master, how do i split it? I previously used a tee with fuel line, that didnt seem to work out.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    So what kind of line do i use from the supply to the dual master, how do i split it? I previously used a tee with fuel line, that didnt seem to work out.
    Something like this would work, it did on my car
    http://www.studebaker-info.org/Tech/...7T/36237T.html
    64 GT Hawk (K7)
    1970 Avanti (R3)

  23. #23
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    The Turner dual M/C is nothing like the one on this site, both supplies are and feeds are on top. I tried to post an image with no luck.
    Last edited by BrianC; 05-16-2018 at 07:39 PM.

  24. #24
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    1C67D1FC-AF0E-4369-BF64-CCD1C462E202.jpgThis is the Turner dual M/C im using.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    1C67D1FC-AF0E-4369-BF64-CCD1C462E202.jpgThis is the Turner dual M/C im using.
    That one looks like the Mitsubishi Eclipse. They work well!

    So go on Ebay and see if you can find the correct remote filler for it, which attaches to the firewall.

    Here's the one that was on my car..
    http://www.studebaker-info.org/64v24...eclipseMC.html


    Here's another application..
    http://www.studebaker-info.org/Tech/...hawk1brak.html
    Last edited by 64V-K7; 05-16-2018 at 09:09 PM.
    64 GT Hawk (K7)
    1970 Avanti (R3)

  26. #26
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    Thank you, this is very useful info.! A great help. I have the original M/C back in right now, i suspect my rebuilt Hydrovac may be the issue, so after all my bleeds and checking i am definitely going to re-insatll this unit. I didn’t recieve a new actuator rod with this one, but looks like the stock rod will do.

  27. #27
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    1C67D1FC-AF0E-4369-BF64-CCD1C462E202.jpgThis is the Turner dual M/C im using.
    Since you have double checked everything else, you might wanna double check that Mitsubishi MC, and insure the piston & bore are a full 1" diameter. Anything less will not work, because you run out of pedal before the brakes are fully applied. I am pretty sure the Mitsubishi MC comes in several different sizes, so insure you have the correct, 1" size.

  28. #28
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    Ive inquired a number of times on torque specs for the caliber to the caliper adaptor bracket and the cylinder block(piston) to the caliper bridge on the 63 Hawk, anybody have any idea, can’t find ir anywhere?

  29. #29
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    Ive inquired a number of times on torque specs for the caliber to the caliper adaptor bracket and the cylinder block(piston) to the caliper bridge on the 63 Hawk, anybody have any idea, can’t find ir anywhere?

  30. #30
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    Interesting dialog on the brakes. I have '62 Hawk and have rebuilt the brakes using Turner disc on front. I do not have booster. My question is, "Do I need a proportion valve to equal out the pressure?". The car has not been driven yet as I am still restoring. Chet445

  31. #31
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Chet, I'd wait and drive it, then decide. I have never needed one. As for torque on the caliper, I dunno but long as it's snug, brake function will not be affected.

  32. #32
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    Thanks, I will try and let you know. Chet

  33. #33
    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
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    Pg. 50 of Group II/Brakes/Disc Brakes of the '59-'64 Shop Manual, outlines the Installation and Shimming/Adjusting the Calipers, but no mention of any Torque and none in the Torque Specs Chart either, so just snug them up tight, or use the generic Torque Charts for Bolt sizes vs Torque.

    But I just remembered that you have Turner Discs, so nothing in the Book will work.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




  34. #34
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    Thanks, mine is stock 63 Hawk, i torqued the mount bolts to 55lbs, just cause it felt right...ha, ill re-check after a few runs, may have to go up a bit??? the caliper pistons I torque to 20lbs, same size bolts on my bike brake, so i figure thats safe enough.

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