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Thread: Fair Market Value

  1. #1
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    Fair Market Value

    It seems as though the fair market value for certain Studebaker Hawks specifically the 57 Golden Hawk and the 62-64 Gran Turismo Hawks have outperformed the 58-61 Hawk models. Considering the rarity of the 1961 Hawk with buckets and factory 4 speed (last finned Hawk) why do you suppose this is. I have seen here lately 61s selling for a very low price even if in good condition. I also noticed that the 53-55 coupes doing well. Its hard to justify certain restoration projects due to the current market. Whats your thoughts on this and the future for Studebaker collectors ?

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    Styles and interests come and go. It seems that right now, fins in general are out of style (Golden Hawks are high for the rest of the car and the name, not because of the fins).

    You should go into restoration and its related cost based on what you want and not a monetary return. Do not restore Studebakers, stick with Chevrolets, if you want a chance at making a buck on a true restoration.
    Gary L.
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    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

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    Studegary,

    I never thought or realized that fins were out of style. You sure couldn't tell it by the price their asking for 57 Chevys, WOW! I chose the 61 Studebaker for the fins and the 289 engine,
    bucket seats and 4 speed transmission and yes the rarity for this model. I have always liked Hawks starting with the 1957 Silver Hawk I drove back in 1964. My intention was never to restore and resell only to restore and enjoy the ride. Its also nice if it happens to appreciate in value along the way. Just wondering why some are and others aren't.

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    President Member tsenecal's Avatar
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    I am building a 1960 Hawk, and enjoy the look of the fins as well. I think that as the cost of engine work, bodywork, paint, upholstery, etc, continues to climb, that restored cars will go up in value with them. Sometimes when you watch automobile auctions, certain models will bring more than you think they could ever be worth, and then some will be reasonably priced, and the auctioneer will state " you couldn't begin to build this car, for that kind of money". I guess it's all personal preference, and who is in the room, on the day of the sale. I would prefer the bucket seats, and four speed that 61 Hawks had, but my car was local here, and needed to be rescued.

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    All hobbies and recreation tend to be expensive especially automobiles. Glad to hear that you are restoring the 1960 Hawk. From what I can ascertain by the time you purchase a candidate and do the bodywork, paint, interior, re-chrome and engine work your probably looking at $30K easily if not more. Its far cheaper to buy one that someone has already restored and has grown tired of. It takes a lot of patience to wait for the right car at the right price to come along. I know several car buffs who have spent twice as much on their cars as they got for them when sold. That next buyer got the bargain. I am trying to keep the cost of my 61 Hawk restoration within reason and hopefully be able to enjoy it even if its not 100% restored or perfect.

  6. #6
    President Member tsenecal's Avatar
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    I agree with you 100%. The key words are "be able to enjoy it" . Whether it is a 100 point car, or not, doesn't really matter to me either. I didn't spare much cost on the engine and drivetrain, because I wanted it to be dependable, but I am doing my own paint and bodywork, and will likely end up doing the upholstery. Neither will be show quality, but should make for a comfortable driver that people will still enjoy at a car show. Stuhawk, good luck with your project. Hope you make it to Tacoma this year.

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    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
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    Fair market value? Really? This is not a thing. There is a varying degree of what people are willing to pay, but it is based upon condition of the vehicle, and LOCATION of the buyer. You can ask more in an affluent environment than in a slum. A Pebble Beach auction will bring more than a OKC auction. Hagerty publishes a price guide based upon AVERAGES of the last years auctions. I'd go with that.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
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    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsenecal View Post
    I agree with you 100%. The key words are "be able to enjoy it" . Whether it is a 100 point car, or not, doesn't really matter to me either. I didn't spare much cost on the engine and drivetrain, because I wanted it to be dependable, but I am doing my own paint and bodywork, and will likely end up doing the upholstery. Neither will be show quality, but should make for a comfortable driver that people will still enjoy at a car show. Stuhawk, good luck with your project. Hope you make it to Tacoma this year.
    In my opinion a comfortable dependable driver is #1. The modern fuel injected cars we all drive are so dependable that we seldom give the trip distance a second thought. Were spoiled. Now we expect our 50-60 year old automobiles to be the same but sadly their not. I love the old Styling when it was easy to tell what was coming down the road at you to now they all look like a modified wedge shape and no chrome. The once pride of ownership is going by the wayside.
    As far as high performance goes the good old days are NOW. What once was high horsepower is common place even amongst grocery getters. Cars with 500, 700 or even higher HP are factory produced with suspension that would rival most anything from the past. Advice for the younger generation is to get em while the gettins good.
    When you did your motor work how did you handle the front crank seal leaking problem ? I saw a clip on the net from Pete's Garage and I did my seal the same as he did except i opted to drill 2 small drain holes in the metal retainer 1 on each side close to the bottom on the inside. So far it has helped, not cured/stopped all leaks. A rubber seal would be probably a better fix. Maybe next time. Good luck on your 60 Hawk and maybe you will make it to the Studebaker Swap meet in Indiana this year. I would like to go but it depends on the Ol Studes dependability track record this spring.

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    Speedster Member voxnut's Avatar
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    With the changing landscape of automobiles and the generational shift of young people who don't care much about new cars and driving, let alone old cars, I would expect in the next 10-20 years to see old car values steeply decline. For my own involvement, it just puts a finer point on enjoying the old cars for the value they give me now.
    Dean Seavers
    Sacramento, CA

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    I have seen here lately 61s selling for a very low price even if in good condition. I also noticed that the 53-55 coupes doing well. Its hard to justify certain restoration projects due to the current market. Whats your thoughts on this and the future for Studebaker collectors ?
    FWIW, I've been restoring and modifying Studebakers for nearly sixty years now. It's always been pretty much impossible to buy a Studebaker at retail, pay shop rate to have a that Studebaker restored and then sell it at a profit. (Yes, there are those who find steal deals, those with their own parts hoard and who can do their own work, but you know who you are and that's not what is being discussed here.) Why should money spent on a hobby car should be viewed any differently than money spent on a luxury golfing vacation or a cruise; it's gone and hope you enjoyed it.

    Fair Market Value is determined by the buyers on any given day. The premium is usually paid for the highest-optioned-top-of-the-line models and only for certain years. Just as a '57 Chevrolet Bel Air hardtop with fuel injection will sell at several multiples of a six-cylinder 4-door sedan; they cost pretty much the same to restore. The few Studes which have attracted a following, '56-58 Golden Hawks, '58 Packard Hawks, R2 GT Hawks, R2/R3 Avanti, sell at many multiples of '58-66 4-doors.

    JMHO as to why the '61 Hawk is a lesser being than a '56-58 GH? They were flashy hardtops with a lot of chrome and a lot of unique performance and some interesting two-tone paint options. The '61 is a conservative coupe with the same engine available in the Larks; just not the same bling as the flashy predecessors.

    jack vines
    PackardV8

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    I find the early Hawks to be landmark designs. The later finned ones simply followed the current fashion of the automotive day. Tacking fins on does not result in a landmark design in my mind. Perhaps this view has also caught up with some collectors and lessened the desirability of such cars. Still, it's what one likes that really counts rather than how much it's worth.

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    President Member E. Davis's Avatar
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    IMG_0443.jpgIts been my experience that truly antique cars hold their value or appreciate more than classics. Of my 3 car collection the 32 Ford pickup seems to always be worth more than the others.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    President Member tsenecal's Avatar
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    Well said Jack, comparing classic cars to any other extravagance. People convert their income to any number of things, such as vacations, boats, motorbikes, camp trailers, etc, because they justify the cost, in the amount of enjoyment they provide.

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    I would just like to say thanks to all you guys for all your input and info. I know that their exists a wealth of knowledge on the SDC forum in regards to all things Studebaker and the members willingness to share this info and knowledge with all involved. That impels me to call out one of your current members who has gone out of their way in helping me with the restoration and repair of my 61 Hawk and selflessly gave up his time and effort to help in any way he could even going so far as procuring or running down parts that I needed and even going after the parts and then shipping them to me at no extra charge. As a footnote he lives in Texas and I live in Illinois. I can't think of a better Studebaker Representative/Spokesperson than Mr. Nick Dynis. I owe Nick a debt of gratitude for all his help, knowledge and wisdom when it comes to Studebaker as well as his experience as an owner/restorer. On top of this Nick and I have never personally met, hopefully this year if he gets to go to Indiana to the Studebaker Museum as well as the Swap Meet. Studebaker people are special people. Their willingness to lend a hand in anyway they can, well, it speaks volumes about their character, honesty, and brotherhood. I for one am proud to be a part of this group. Thank You All and especially to you Nick.

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    Only a few studes are collectible. Actually, the same is true of most brand x. For example. A 57 2 door belair is worth twice as much as a 210. Go with a 4 door and the value takes another precipitous drop. Many of the 56,57,58 fords or mopars don't do much better than their stude counterparts.

    As others have said, it is rare to make any money restoring an old car.
    78 Avanti RQB 2792
    64 Avanti R1 R5408
    63 Avanti R1 R4551
    63 Avanti R1 R2281
    62 GT Hawk V15949
    56 GH 6032504
    56 GH 6032588
    55 Speedster 7160047
    55 Speedster 7165279

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    I don't agree with the above statement, that only a few Studebakers are are collectible. If your equating value to collectability, then I guess that you have a point, but few post-war Studes have any real high end dollar value. I might go so far as to say, that no post-war Studebaker is worth the dollar cost, of it's restoration. So to me, the quantitative argument against a particular cars collect ability, goes away fast. To me, the story of a particular car's survival is much more important, then most Studebaker's iconic, or monetary value.

    It's easy to tell by your nice collection of cars, what you believe to be "collectible." If, however, everyone turned away from collecting Larks, sedans and trucks the Studebaker world would be pretty boring place. I have collected cars for over half a century. I included cars for a lot of different reasons like style, originality, sentimental value or history. The vary last reasons that I would include a car, are value, and because someone else says that it is "collectable."

    I'm doing something that I never do, by including a list of my cars:

    1931 Studebaker Four Seasons-Pebble Beach 1991
    1933 Pierce Arrow 836 sedan
    1937 President State sedan
    1937 President coupe
    1939 Commander coupe
    1941 President Skyway Landcruiser
    1941 President cruising sedan
    1950 Champion Starlight coupe-Mary's car
    1951 Champion four door
    1955 President Speedster
    1955 Commander htp
    1955 Commander Conestoga
    1960 V8 four door wagon
    1962 Daytona convertibles (2)
    1963 Daytona htp
    1963 Ford truck
    1963 Buick Riviera
    1964 Avanti
    1965 Buick Riviera
    1967 Chev Camaro RS
    1976 Jaguar XJ12C
    1985 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
    1985 Jaguar XJ6
    1988 Jaguar XJSC
    I have some 90's cars that I chose not to include
    I've collected these, because each in their own way, was special to me. The only monetary consideration, that was used, could I afford it.

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    President Member tsenecal's Avatar
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    That is a nice list of vehicles, and I'm happy that you have them, and hopefully care for them. Beyond being able to drive a classic car, and enjoy that, is to be able out to take it out to a car show, so that the younger generation can walk around, and take a good look at what a Studebaker Hawk looked like in 1960.

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    The original post clearly suggests him wanting to know values of certain Studes. Look at the number of Studes at car shows. Does the "rarity" of their numbers suggest increased values ? No. So does the relative values inside our little car world here.

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    Just wondering if a survey was taken here at the SDC forum what percentage of the current Studebaker owners are baby boomers ? I guess it boils down to what age group is collecting/buying Studebaker cars and trucks.

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    I started a thread on a similar subject back on January 17. You can check it out: the title is
    Asking all new SDC members to respond

    I am still getting answers on my PM and I am also calling people that have recently joined from the 4Q report that our Arizona Manager Chris Collins sent me. If any other state managers would like to send the report from California, Utah, and Nevada to me I will also contact recent members. When I have 100 respondents, I will start a new thread to post the results. Hopefully, this information will be useful to help our Studebaker Drivers Club to grow and maintain membership

    Bob Miles
    Tucson AZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuhawk View Post
    Just wondering if a survey was taken here at the SDC forum what percentage of the current Studebaker owners are baby boomers ? I guess it boils down to what age group is collecting/buying Studebaker cars and trucks.
    There has been a least one thread/topic here on the Forum asking about member's ages. This has little to do with market for the cars because most on here either have what they want or they are reducing the number of vehicles that they have, not buying more. Sure there are exceptions. I am a pre-War model, but I believe that the majority here are baby boomers.
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

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    Tom, I'll treat your comments as a compliment, but with reservations. To allay your concerns, I do both show and try to maintain. No more full restorations, which I have done in the past. At 74 years of age, I do the best that I can. Over the last twenty five years I have concentrated on decent original cars, and car needing vary little to make them presentable and operable. There is a sprinkle of projects, some of which will not get done within my lifetime, but i am not overwhelmed and I doubt that you would be concerned either. I see that you live in Elko. I ran out of gas ten miles east of there, in 1969. I tried to stretch, less then a half tank of gas, 120 miles, because I was unwilling to pay the forty five cents a gallon, in Wells. Hwy 80 was two lanes, with no gas stations between Wells and Elco. I80 ain't like that today!

    Probably said too much but here's more. For me condition is everything, it really make little difference if the car is right, the year and model make no difference.

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    Speedster Member avanti-hawk's Avatar
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    Having owned many different makes and models of old cars I can say without a doubt Studebakers are some of the most affordable makes to buy and maintain.
    I'm including American as well as European cars.
    I've had Mercedes Benz SL 250,380,450 convertibles, A bunch of Corvette's including a 60 and a 63 Sting Raycoupe, A few Jag's, Xk's XJ, and Sovereign sedans. One Porsche(that was enough), Cadillac Allante's(4). Now that I'm in need of storage space and no affordable places close by I'm down to 2 old cars and by the end of spring it will be just one. That one will likely be a Stude. Why? Finances are a big factor, but also the Studes provide more smiles per mile than most others. Resale value is important to me, but LOW entry cost makes them less worrisome. Besides, my daughter will be happy to drive a Stude!

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    "Resale value is important to me, but LOW entry cost makes them less worrisome". 2nd best axiom when buying real estate ...

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    President Member tsenecal's Avatar
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    Hallabutt, sorry for the reservations you had. I really meant that you have a great bunch of cars, and I think that you have them, because you enjoy them. I'm probably a little crazy, but cars are almost like living beings to me. I hate to see them abandoned, neglected, and abused, and would try to save them all, if time and money were no object. The love affair with automobiles, that people had in the years up to the 70s, seems to be fading, and people, for the most part, just see them as transportation to and from destinations. Many young people now, have no interest in cars, or driving.

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    Speedster Member avanti-hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackb View Post
    "Resale value is important to me, but LOW entry cost makes them less worrisome". 2nd best axiom when buying real estate ...
    Right below "Location,Location,Location"

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    President Member Jerry Forrester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsenecal View Post
    Many young people now, have no interest in cars, or driving.
    I don't think that's entirely true.
    Look around (at least in this area) at all the imports known as 'tuners'. Ground scraping, fart pipes, etc. And some will blow the doors off a lot of V8's.
    Jerry Forrester
    Forrester's Chrome
    Douglasville, Georgia

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    don't know how this reply will go over but here goes. when my wife saw the 63 hawk's picture in the advertisement she responded with "FANCY"

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    Silver Hawk Member JRoberts's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jerry Forrester;1096224] I don't think that's entirely true.

    Jerry is absolutely right. This card gets played far too often here. Many young people do love cars, but they love what they can afford and what their peers like. Just like us. We all here love Studebakes, but some have pristine Golden Hawks, Speedsters or rare pre-war cars. For others we like things that are a bit more affordable, four door sedans etc. I hate it when we fall into the dangerous habit of painting folks with a broad brush.
    Joe Roberts
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    '65 Cruiser
    Eastern North Carolina Chapter

  30. #30
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    Has anyone checked "Cars Online" lately?
    I scanned 1950 thru 1981 and out of 100 Studebakers(Avanti's too) there were sales posted for 61%!! This is certainly impressive for a product brand once previously ignored by the masses.
    Slightly off topic, I have a pal here in Arizona who is interested in purchasing a 62-64 GT Hawk. Shipping won't be an impediment. Any suggestions?
    Cheers, Bill

  31. #31
    President Member ndynis's Avatar
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    On top of this Nick and I have never personally met, hopefully this year if he gets to go to Indiana to the Studebaker Museum as well as the Swap Meet. Studebaker people are special people. Their willingness to lend a hand in anyway they can, well, it speaks volumes about their character, honesty, and brotherhood. I for one am proud to be a part of this group. Thank You All and especially to you Nick.[/QUOTE]

    Ahhh, shucks! You make me blush.
    Glad to see you on the Forum! And as of right now I do plan to make the Swap Meet and my first trip to the Museum. I was planning to make the trip so I came through your country and maybe stop for a visit. Better yet if you are going to the meet as well. How about some pictures of that good looking Hawk you are putting back together? Everyone on the Forum loves pictures.
    Great to hear from you.
    Nick

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    Speedster Member voxnut's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JRoberts;1096230]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Forrester View Post
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    Jerry is absolutely right. This card gets played far too often here. Many young people do love cars, but they love what they can afford and what their peers like. Just like us. We all here love Studebakes, but some have pristine Golden Hawks, Speedsters or rare pre-war cars. For others we like things that are a bit more affordable, four door sedans etc. I hate it when we fall into the dangerous habit of painting folks with a broad brush.
    Point taken. I always have to shake my head when, particularly in the muscle car arena, greybeards gripe about how a kid into cars wants a Honda Civic instead of his '67 Camaro for $50K, forgetting that when he was a 17 year old in the late 70's, driver '67 Camaros could be had for $2500. But when you think that housing expenses have shot through the roof, and a lot more kids are going to college which often means student loan debt, plus a lot of them are under employed and scrambling to put a 40 hour work week together. There isn't the disposable income for a lot of young people, even if they are interested in old cars as a hobby, to pursue car ownership. It's hard enough to afford a single new car and the associated expenses, let alone an extra toy car and the extra space needed to store it and work on it.

    But there is merit to the statement that young people overall are less interested in cars. If you Google it, you can see a lot of studies that bear out that at least in more urban areas, a lot of younger people aren't interested in driving. I have a 20 year old son who grew up in a gearhead house and even raced karts as a kid, and he doesn't have his license and doesn't care. None of his friends have licenses either, and many of the parents I work with have kids who don't have licenses or are interested in driving. They either bike, or take uber or lyft to places they don't want to bike to.

    Here's a bit from a 2014 University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute study, and I'm sure 4 years on, the numbers have changed, and not increased:

    "The open road and a set of wheels once symbolized freedom, but in today's era of convenient, smartphone-based ride-sharing services such as Uber and Lyft that romantic notion seems increasingly quaint. Generally speaking, the younger you are (down to the legal driving age, of course), the less likely you are to have a driver's license compared with the same age group three decades ago.


    The study, conducted by institute researchers Michael Sivak and Brandon Schoettle using Federal Highway Administration data, shows that 16-year-olds' eagerness to drive plummeted in the period examined, from 1983 to 2014. About 46 percent of American teens in 1983 became licensed drivers sometime in the year after their 16th birthday compared with about a quarter in 2014, a drop of nearly half. The latest study found that the decline in the percentage of licensed 16-year-olds observed in earlier studies — to about 31 percent in 2008 and about 28 percent in 2011 — has continued.


    In fact, all the age groups up to age 44 showed continuous declines over the 31-year period, with the exception of a slight uptick in licensed 25- to 29-year-olds from 2008 to 2011. Since 1983, the share of 17-year-olds with licenses has dipped by nearly 35 percent, 18-year-olds by more than a quarter, 19-year-olds by 21 percent and 20- to 24-year-olds by more than 16 percent. Despite that one-time blip for 25- to 29-year-olds, the age group's percentage with licenses still dipped by 11 percent for the entire period, followed by 30- to 34-year-olds by 10.3 percent, 35- to 39-year-olds by more than 7 percent and 40- to 44-year-olds by more than 3 percent."
    Dean Seavers
    Sacramento, CA

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
    Has anyone checked "Cars Online" lately?
    I scanned 1950 thru 1981 and out of 100 Studebakers(Avanti's too) there were sales posted for 61%!! This is certainly impressive for a product brand once previously ignored by the masses.
    Slightly off topic, I have a pal here in Arizona who is interested in purchasing a 62-64 GT Hawk. Shipping won't be an impediment. Any suggestions?
    Cheers, Bill
    Buzzard,
    I noticed the exact same thing on "Cars Online". There are certain years and models of Studebaker that appears to sell as soon as their posted for sale like the Supercharged Avanti's. It also seems to apply to the 53-55 coupes and certain Turismo GTs . It sure appears to me that someone is planning on these models appreciating in the future and lets grab the good ones at a fair price while you can. In most makes it seems that holds true also like Oldsmobile and Buick. What once was cheap to collect has gone way up in price especially the Hardtops and Convertibles. Look at how the 40 Ford coupes have risen the 55-57 T Birds and dont even think about finding a bargain in the Mopar Hotrods or 54-63 Vettes, Ouch! I think that some of the Studebakers will become hard to get in the future especially at a reasonable price. Time will tell.

    Stuhawk

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndynis View Post
    On top of this Nick and I have never personally met, hopefully this year if he gets to go to Indiana to the Studebaker Museum as well as the Swap Meet. Studebaker people are special people. Their willingness to lend a hand in anyway they can, well, it speaks volumes about their character, honesty, and brotherhood. I for one am proud to be a part of this group. Thank You All and especially to you Nick.
    Ahhh, shucks! You make me blush.
    Glad to see you on the Forum! And as of right now I do plan to make the Swap Meet and my first trip to the Museum. I was planning to make the trip so I came through your country and maybe stop for a visit. Better yet if you are going to the meet as well. How about some pictures of that good looking Hawk you are putting back together? Everyone on the Forum loves pictures.
    Great to hear from you.
    Nick[/QUOTE]


    Nick,

    Its good to hear from you and hope you and your family are well. I surely hope that we can visit this summer when you go east to Indiana. I haven't done much to the 61 since i got it home and am trying to gather the parts to fix the window run channels and some other much needed repairs. Like most retired people it seems there is way more time than money and you have to prioritize projects. Look forward to hearing from you. As of right now I wouldn't know how to get a pic from my camera to this forum, electronically challenged.......

    Tom

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