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Thread: Can I remove a 289 crankshaft without removing the transmission

  1. #1
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    Can I remove a 289 crankshaft without removing the transmission

    I have a 57 289 connected to a flight-o-matic.
    This engine was newly overhauled with new US made bearings.
    It has a rod in the front of the engine that knocks when the engine warms up.
    Already cleaned and replaced the oil pressure regulator.
    I may need to get new rod bearings and grind the crank that is .020 under to .030 under unless there is another cause.

    My question is: can I remove the crankshaft without removing the transmission from the engine?
    I would think so, but I haven't dug into that yet.
    Can the torque converter plate bolts can be removed then slide the converter back?
    I don't want to pull the engine for this.

  2. #2
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    I think it might be possible, but I have never tried it. Sounds to me like doing it the hard way. Just pull the engine, and get it on a stand. Then you can see everything with a good light, from a comfortable working position.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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    The key would be the flex plate bolts to the torque converter. doing this under the car will be a major pain is the rear compared to just pulling the engine trans and doing it 'topside' . NO, you cant do this.

  4. #4
    President Member Dwain G.'s Avatar
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    If it IS a rod-knock, that conn rod is likely stretched. Replace or have it resized.

  5. #5
    President Member TWChamp's Avatar
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    I agree to pull the engine, and have the rod checked for straightness. Need to find out why that one is bad right after an overhaul.

    About 1979 I was working at a Dodge dealership and had to fix a new Dodge V8 van with a ticking rod. It turned out to be the factory had the notch in the wrong location on the rod cap. I filed the notch in the right place and installed a new bearing, and that corrected the problem. I don't see how that got by the guy assembling that engine.
    Last edited by TWChamp; 12-04-2017 at 03:35 AM.

  6. #6
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    I'm not sure we have enough questions answered in order to proceed to drastic measures? Did you do the rebuild yourself? You mentioned the "oil pressure regulator." Do you mean the oil pressure relief valve? Most of us clean them, or replace them as part of the rebuild. They usually don't get much attention beyond that unless there's an oil pressure issue. Since the rebuild, how's your oil pressure? Is it acceptable? Does the needle dance inexplicably? Have you isolated which rod bearing you suspect is knocking? Have you used a mechanic's stethoscope to narrow the area of the knock?

    Are you sure the knock is from a rod, and not a faulty, or sloppy aftermarket fuel pump actuator arm? If only one rod journal is sloppy enough to knock, I would be tempted to drop the oil pan to expose the crank shaft and inspect/check for a loose end-cap. I'm thinking that if it is loose enough to knock, there should be enough clearance to notice by manipulating the offending rod by hand. How much was the engine run since the rebuild? Was the knock noticed on initial run, or did it occur over a period of time? To me, some questions to answer before assuming the worst. Finally, before I would contort myself into an awkward knot, if the crankshaft requires further work, I would pull the engine, place it on a proper stand, and work in comfort. Best of luck in solving the problem.
    John Clary
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    You really can't do it; it is not practical or wise. As noted you will want to replace the involved rod and put in a crank kit. Always, always, always Plastigage every bearing. you don't know what moron has had their hands on that crank.

  8. #8
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    Trying to remove the crankshaft while the engine is still in the car while possible would be tougher and would probably take more time than removing the engine and putting it on a stand. You also are taking a real risk of getting dirt in the engine if you try to to the repairs from the underside of the car. I also agree that if there is a rod knock, then the rod in question needs to be checked for straightness, out of round and the correct big end size which means one cylinder head also has to be removed. If the oil pressure is good, also suspect a noisy aftermarket fuel pump arm. Bud

  9. #9
    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Trying to take the crank out without removing the transmission is about equal to getting your socks to come out your sleeve without taking your shoes or pants off. it might be possible but a lot more work than just taking off your shoes first.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

  10. #10
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    You'd have to slide the transmission back an inch or so, and would have to remove one piston out the top end, then the crank would come out. The time required to do that, plus the difficulty in maintaining cleanliness, plus working from a worm position on a creeper, versus standing or sitting at an engine stand make it a real bad idea. Much as it pains you, the logical procedure is to pull the motor.

    As for number 1/2 rods knocking after a rebuild, that happened to me about 20 years ago. I should say I did it to myself, because I did not spin the oil pump to circulate oil before initial start up. I figured the assembly pre-lube would hold till oil reached all moving parts, and it did, all except #1/2 rod bearings, which are farthest downstream, and among the last components to receive oil when firing up a dry motor.

    I polished the journal, installed new bearings, plastigaged it, and found it was about .004" loose. I buttoned it up and ran it about 100,000 miles before swapping in another 289. Haven't looked at the crank, but it always ran with a bit lower oil pressure than what I am used to with 259/289 motors. I say drop the oil pan with the motor in the car and have a look at yours' rod journal. You might get lucky, as I did, with polishing and new bearings. Or you might have to pull the motor. I'd make that call once I eyeballed the rod journals.

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    Good advice from all. It might be recommended to do the investigation first, dropping the pan, rotate the crankshaft so the front throw is down, pulling the rod caps, push up the rods/pistons so the journal is visible 360-degrees. Does the journal and bearings show any wear? Plastigage, reinstall, torque rod caps, remove and read the plastigage. Get back to us with what you find. It is to be hoped a solution presents itself not requiring pulling the engine.

    Yes, a crankshaft R&R is better done with the engine out, except that's not always what happened in the bad old days. Here's where one of the oooold guys will remember way back when, there was a guy with a machine in the trunk of his car who traveled far and wide. A garage or dealership would call, he'd come wheeling in his machine on a hand truck, with the vehicle on a lift, he'd turn undersize one or all the rod journals with the crank still in the block, block still in the vehicle.

    Sometimes, the same traveling guy would also have a boring bar. Most inline engines and early Ford V8s could be rebored in the frame.

    jack vines
    Last edited by PackardV8; 12-04-2017 at 11:10 AM.
    PackardV8

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    Yes Jack. That same traveling guy came to my rickety old house garage in greater Vancouver and turned a throw or two in a 6 cylinder Austin Healey motor I had in an A90 sedan. I was never too sure on his accuracy but he sure got around.
    Bill

  13. #13
    President Member Dwain G.'s Avatar
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    Another question.....What was the hot, running oil pressure after the overhaul?

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    .......possible flex plate issue ????

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackb View Post
    .......possible flex plate issue ????
    Flex plate is new.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwain G. View Post
    Another question.....What was the hot, running oil pressure after the overhaul?
    60 at cold idle and 20 at warm idle.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHall View Post
    You'd have to slide the transmission back an inch or so, and would have to remove one piston out the top end, then the crank would come out. The time required to do that, plus the difficulty in maintaining cleanliness, plus working from a worm position on a creeper, versus standing or sitting at an engine stand make it a real bad idea. Much as it pains you, the logical procedure is to pull the motor.

    As for number 1/2 rods knocking after a rebuild, that happened to me about 20 years ago. I should say I did it to myself, because I did not spin the oil pump to circulate oil before initial start up. I figured the assembly pre-lube would hold till oil reached all moving parts, and it did, all except #1/2 rod bearings, which are farthest downstream, and among the last components to receive oil when firing up a dry motor.

    I polished the journal, installed new bearings, plastigaged it, and found it was about .004" loose. I buttoned it up and ran it about 100,000 miles before swapping in another 289. Haven't looked at the crank, but it always ran with a bit lower oil pressure than what I am used to with 259/289 motors. I say drop the oil pan with the motor in the car and have a look at yours' rod journal. You might get lucky, as I did, with polishing and new bearings. Or you might have to pull the motor. I'd make that call once I eyeballed the rod journals.
    That is what I suspect .
    I ran the oil pump with a drill until the oil was coming out of the rear camshaft drain hole by the distributor.
    That is a great plan and the way I'll do it in the spring.... its cold around here now and the shop isn't heated.
    What happened to you 20 years ago is what I suspect happened to me too.
    I should have ran the drill much longer because since this problem arose I learned that the first rod journal is the LAST bearing to get lubed form the oil pump.
    When I did the prelube I thought that when it was coming out of the cam bearings and pumping out of the rocker shafts was enough.

    Thanks,
    Dan

  17. #17
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    "I ran the oil pump with a drill until the oil was coming out of the rear camshaft drain hole by the distributor."

    Wait, What?

    Are you speaking of the galley hole that should be plugged?

    Got a picture of the location of this hole?

    Time to get the experts involved here.

  18. #18
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    What hole are you referring to as there shouldn't be oil coming out of any holes in the block if everything is assembled correctly. There is an internal galley plug in the front side of the distributor hole, but that should have a 1/4 pipe plug installed during engine assembly or there will be little to no oil pressure as there is a giant leak in the lube system when that plug is not installed. Bud

  19. #19
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    Good oil pressure is only part of the equation good volume is the other part, plugged oil galleys will still offer good pressure but restricted volume. I nearly destroyed an engine because of this, I had good oil pressure and thought everything was ok until the engine seized up. I hadn't cleaned the oil galleys prior.

  20. #20
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    Worse than trying to get the crank out (gravity to the point of it falling on you is your friend) would be bench pressing it back in and getting the caps on without issues.

    These thing usually don't end up working out too well. My 700R4 came out of an Obama car that had glass beads run in the engine to deliberately seize it. One of the convertor bolts couldn't be reached. In the end I yanked the transmission abruptly backwards onto an old car seat. Then I could access the upper convertor bolt and remove it. I got lucky not to damage anything - and it was the JY's tranny until I got it to the counter. But in this case, being it is your engine, I think everyone agrees - pull the engine.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-98 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

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    Just a thought...

    In my old T-cab, I had a knock sound coming from the front of the engine and I drove the truck for several years regardless. Then one day the vehicle was idling and yep, a hollow sound knock. Just for kicks I lifted the hood and and noticed that the the lines to the fuel pump were cut off as I had replaced it with an electric pump. I put a finger on one of the ends and half the knock went away and covering up the remaining end eliminated it altogether.

    Also on a similar truck where the engine ran very quietly, it would have a tick that would be intermittent. That was play between the fuel pump arm and the cam lobe that drove it. Not at all uncommon.

    Sometimes things that sound bad turn out to be simple things that are not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyOne View Post
    Just a thought...

    In my old T-cab, I had a knock sound coming from the front of the engine and I drove the truck for several years regardless. Then one day the vehicle was idling and yep, a hollow sound knock. Just for kicks I lifted the hood and and noticed that the the lines to the fuel pump were cut off as I had replaced it with an electric pump. I put a finger on one of the ends and half the knock went away and covering up the remaining end eliminated it altogether.

    Also on a similar truck where the engine ran very quietly, it would have a tick that would be intermittent. That was play between the fuel pump arm and the cam lobe that drove it. Not at all uncommon.

    Sometimes things that sound bad turn out to be simple things that are not...
    I have no mechanical fuel pump on this engine, just a eliminator plate.
    I'm using a electric pump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs K Corbin View Post
    "I ran the oil pump with a drill until the oil was coming out of the rear camshaft drain hole by the distributor."


    Wait, What?

    Are you speaking of the galley hole that should be plugged?

    Got a picture of the location of this hole?

    Time to get the experts involved here.
    OOPS!, I meant to say that I removed that plug until the oil started to come out there.
    Then I replaced the plug like it was before.
    My bad

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs K Corbin View Post
    "I ran the oil pump with a drill until the oil was coming out of the rear camshaft drain hole by the distributor."


    Wait, What?

    Are you speaking of the galley hole that should be plugged?

    Got a picture of the location of this hole?

    Time to get the experts involved here.
    Its down behind the distributor.
    I forgot to mention that I had this plug out temporarily.
    The plug got replaced when I got oil there.

  25. #25
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    Removing the plug at the rear of the block in my opinion is not the best way to prime the lube system on a freshly rebuilt engine. I install an oil pressure gauge, spin the oil pump while watching for oil coming out of both rocker arm shafts and turning the crankshaft a couple of times while spinning the oil pump to be sure that everything has a good supply of oil before starting the engine. I also like to see at least 40 lbs of oil pressure while spinning the oil pump to be sure that there are no leaks and no plugs are left out of the block. Bud

  26. #26
    Silver Hawk Member JoeHall's Avatar
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    Bud, I agree 100 percent.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud View Post
    Removing the plug at the rear of the block in my opinion is not the best way to prime the lube system on a freshly rebuilt engine. I install an oil pressure gauge, spin the oil pump while watching for oil coming out of both rocker arm shafts and turning the crankshaft a couple of times while spinning the oil pump to be sure that everything has a good supply of oil before starting the engine. I also like to see at least 40 lbs of oil pressure while spinning the oil pump to be sure that there are no leaks and no plugs are left out of the block. Bud
    I think that is where I went wrong.... NOT turning the crankshaft more than the 1/2 turn or so that I did when priming the oil pump.
    AND I turned the crank with the pump not tuning.
    I expect to be replacing rod bearings.

  28. #28
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    UPDATE: What really happened is I missed some honing grit and it whiped out my crank and bearings!
    There was no discoloring of the rod jounrnals so it had oil.
    I'm in need of a new/used useable crankshaft since my crank was at minimum already.

  29. #29
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    Ouch! That just reinforces the old adage "cleanliness is next to...!". Something I am sure everyone reading this will say they already do but this puts that exclamation point behind the statement.

    Finding a new crank shouldn't be too big a problem, though. Might want look for an oil pump and cam bearings while you're at it.

    All the best with your build.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by StudeNorm View Post
    Ouch! That just reinforces the old adage "cleanliness is next to...!". Something I am sure everyone reading this will say they already do but this puts that exclamation point behind the statement.

    Finding a new crank shouldn't be too big a problem, though. Might want look for an oil pump and cam bearings while you're at it.

    All the best with your build.
    How bad is the crank. There are some .040 bearing available.
    David L

  31. #31
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    To answer the first question, yes you can replace the crank without removing the trans. did it once a long while back to help out Bro- In -Law. it's tricky but we were successful and engine still going today. Good Luck, Doofus

  32. #32
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    The crank is scored enough to feel it when I run a finger nail across the surfaces.
    It might just barely make it if the mains were ground down to .040..
    Where would I find .040 under main bearings?

  33. #33
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    My old Studebaker dealer, back in the'60s, working alone in his two car shop, would regularly pull a Stude V-8 engine and trans together, and replace it with another in a single working day. An engine hoist, and the rest is a set of sockets and end wrenches. Its really not too difficult as most Studebaker's have relatively huge engine compartments, few accessories, and minimal wiring connections.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galactica5 View Post
    The crank is scored enough to feel it when I run a finger nail across the surfaces.
    It might just barely make it if the mains were ground down to .040..
    Where would I find .040 under main bearings?
    Where you looked!

  35. #35
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    Take the crank out and make sure you can grind it .040 under before you buy any bearings.

  36. #36
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    Is crank welding not done anymore? Just a thought. running 2 welded up specimens and they are doing fine. Luck Doofus

  37. #37
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    Yes you can still get a crank welded. It is somewhat expensive.
    David L

  38. #38
    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    I had the crank welded on my Autocross car because I could not find a good one. There is a guy in Terre Haute who does it in a machine shop that looks like a time capsul from 1950. He works there alone with about 5,000 cranks sitting around for company. The crank worked fine seeing duty at up to 9000 rpm whenever running in an autocross.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Seems like about $200?
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

  39. #39
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    Yes, but you won't get it back in, so fire up the torch.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64Avanti View Post
    How bad is the crank. There are some .040 bearing available.
    Does anyone have a source for these .040 under bearings? I have heard this said before but nobody seems to know where they are.
    1957 goldenhawk

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