Results 1 to 34 of 34

Thread: Interesting front end work...

  1. #1
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Great Falls VA
    Posts
    3,080

    Interesting front end work...

    Just found this .... Work being done on a 63 Avanti with Rack & Pinion, ball joints, Mustang spindles, etc.





    balljointavanti.jpg


    balljointavantib.jpg

    balljointavantic.jpg
    64 GT Hawk (K7)
    1970 Avanti (R3)

  2. #2
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ, USA.
    Posts
    842
    Brakes and suspension modifications are extremely hard to do successfully. Hope it works out for the guy!

    Russ Shop Foreman \"Rusty Nut Garage\"
    53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
    57 SH (project)
    60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

  3. #3
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Trochu, Alberta , Canada.
    Posts
    5,134
    I wonder how alignment is going to be accomplished? Honestly, all I see here is a lot of pain for very little gain. Basic suspension geometry is not being changed. No anti-dive, no rolling negative in hard cornering. And if a rear-steer rack is used, there's going to be interference with the engine.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

  4. #4
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    4,336
    What gordr said.
    Xactly.

    Better off just dropping the stock upper arm mount for some good camber in the turns and leave the rest as is. That (pictured) setup will not provide.

    Mike

  5. #5
    Golden Hawk Member StudeRich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ferndale, WA, USA.
    Posts
    26,571
    I Member up here in the Northwest had a '65 Wagonaire, that some fool welded Chev. Nova Outer "A" Arm ends with Ball Joints onto the Stude. Arms and put in 4 Adjustable Air Bags, the only reasonable fix was to scrap it all except the Rear Air Bags and put it back to Stock.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner




  6. #6
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Great Falls VA
    Posts
    3,080
    I inquired.... the seller assures me that "his fabricator" said it can be aligned like any other car.... He even sells conversion kits.. go figure..
    64 GT Hawk (K7)
    1970 Avanti (R3)

  7. #7
    President Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Above the Equator
    Posts
    1,523
    Just because most people wouldn't "pay" to have this modification done doesn't mean the guys (car owner and fabricator) aren't taking it as a personal challenge with the investment of their own time. In addition to parts that are more readily available at other than selected locations, part of the driving force behind this might be the brake upgrade and not just the suspension. Tubular A-arms, Mustang II front end kits and modifications where whole cross-members (Crown Vic to Ford trucks) seem to all have their place.

    Let them give it a try and if it doesn't work out (to their satisfaction, not anyone else's) THEN it would be time to say, "What were you thinking?"
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-69 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

  8. #8
    Speedster Member Noxnabaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    371
    It would be interesting if the builder of it would read this thread & comment...

  9. #9
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    4,336
    wittsend -

    Nope...not so much.
    Geometry only goes so far..!

    On the other hand, your comment "to their satisfaction" is a very accurate comment.
    Plus...no one's "stopping" them from this experiment.
    I for one applaud anyone with the b--ls to "experiment" with things. But some engineering background (and high school geometry in this case) should be a large part in most experiments. Like in this case...don't want anyone hurt.

    Mike

  10. #10
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Trochu, Alberta , Canada.
    Posts
    5,134
    The photos provided don't show the inboard ends of the control arms. They do show the stock factory control arms modified to accept ball joints, but it's not clear if the ball joints can be shifted around on the arms to permit camber and caster adjustments, not that it would the best way to do such adjustments, anyway. The way the stock Studebaker control arms are mounted to the chassis does not permit any adjustment there. The obvious answer would be to weld a flat plate vertically to the top of the spring tower, such that the upper inner control arm shaft could be bolted to it so that its ends were in about the stock position. Ideally, you'd mount that vertical plate a little inboard of there, and use shims under the control shaft to space it back out to the nominal location. That would give you room to adjust camber by adding/removing equal shims at each bolt, or caster by adding/removing shims from one bolt only. Which is how Brand X's accomplish alignment, in many cases. (Not so much now, with MacPherson struts)
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

  11. #11
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Great Falls VA
    Posts
    3,080
    64 GT Hawk (K7)
    1970 Avanti (R3)

  12. #12
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ, USA.
    Posts
    842
    front end modifications may be the least of the new owners worries................
    Quote Originally Posted by 64V-K7 View Post

    Russ Shop Foreman \"Rusty Nut Garage\"
    53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
    57 SH (project)
    60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

  13. #13
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Spokane, WA, USA.
    Posts
    7,540
    The asking price for this R2 with engine rebuild done is $14,000. Impossible to know for certain, but a WAG, based upon a typical "well-known restorer/fabricator" shop pricing, I'd estimate the front suspension work at $4,000.Would you pay more or less for this R2 because it has the described modifications?

    A well know restorer/fabricator designed and fabricated a major upgrade to the front Disk brakes, suspension and steering. He stripped, inspected and painted the front subframe, and cleaned and inspected other areas of the frame and rear axel assembly. Modern steering rack installed, He installed and did custom fabrication work to install a1969 Ford Mustang disk brake conversion and front suspension modifications to actually allow an Avanti to steer, stop and handle like it never did in factory form.
    jack vines
    PackardV8

  14. #14
    President Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    4,336
    Per Jacks question -

    I would not buy a car modified in such a way unless, 1. I knew the person that did the work and knew h/she did it correctly, or 2. I did the work. No bragging here, but I now my work and how I arrive at the various decisions that need to be made.

    I've seen supposed "experts" work. In many cases, it's no better design wise than 1950's/60's Studebaker suspension. I'm talking geometry, not welds..! "Kit" chassis are the same. No anti-dive, no roll camber (in turns), etc. You have to spend extra money to get a "properly" designed front suspension when buying a fancy (expensive) custom chassis.

    Mike

  15. #15
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Trochu, Alberta , Canada.
    Posts
    5,134
    I am seeing no provision whatsoever for alignment adjustments, and the steering rack is sitting right where the sump on the oil pan wants to be.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

  16. #16
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    here, sometimes somewhere else
    Posts
    5,334
    Interesting. A few things I see and a few wondering out loud items.....
    The spindle is not as tall as stock king pins. This will make camber change + on bumps, and heavy cornering. Not a good thing.
    If you are changing something as critical as steering and suspension, and paying why make it a rear steer rack? Obviously there are front steer racks that would prevent you from having to modify the oil pan.
    As modified, there is no provision for adjustment.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

  17. #17
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,496
    Bez, When playing around with racks I have found that it is almost imposable to use a front steer rack because of the front cross member. You would have to make the steering arms too long and I have never found an off the shelf rack that was narrow enough to get the right geometries for the lengths of the Stude a-arms. Looking at those pics. really doesn't do the work justice. I see incorrect king pin inclination angles. Unsupported ball joint plates and I won't get into the welding. But let's cut the guy some slack, till he gets it on the road and gives us feed back on how it handles.

  18. #18
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    British Columbia & Arizona
    Posts
    1,697
    Wow, what a project! I hope it all works for him and look forward to his updates. However, from what I have gleamed over the years and on this forum, going from bullet proof (if greased and maintained) king pins and associated components to lesser strength ball joints and disc brakes intended for a car 700+ lbs lighter doesn't make as much sense to me as adding Jim Turner's brakes (if you have a problem with the Dunlops') and Dave's Koni shocks, quick steering arms, steel control arm bushings (as if I recall, '51 and Avanti R2-3), larger sway bars and better (urethane) mounts, and a good tight center pin assembly would be my logical progression. The only rack assembly I have heard of had horrific bump steer characteristics, probably due to alignment changes and with the above posts it seems others have had alignment problems too. So what is really to be gained here? I agree with Alan, lets cut some slack and I hope the follow up proves differently as this is a very major undertaking and after looking at the Hemmings listing, there may be way more than just suspension challenges.
    JMHO
    Bill

  19. #19
    President Member 48skyliner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Carnation, Washington
    Posts
    577
    When Sean started this project for Jim Giordano, he said he would do what he usually does, and see what he could do with parts we have just lying around. If he was not happy with the results, he would just throw it all away and start from scratch. Building a crossmember and suspension is not a big deal for Sean. Meanwhile, some other projects came along and the Avanti was put aside for now.

    Mount for rack.jpg Avanti pan.jpg

    If you have not seen it, take a look at the work Sean did on my friend's Mustang, piecing together front suspension using some rear coilovers from a Nissan 240SX, some control arm brackets from a Ferrari project , brakes from a Nissan Skyline, and of course the complete rear suspension from an Infinti J30:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BnegsrbB8s

    Some of you may have seen the Porsche 908 replica chassis and body that Sean recently built, based almost entirely on photos he found on the internet. It has generated a lot of interest among the Porsche crowd.

    908 chassis - 2.jpg Chassis final assembly June 2017.jpg Side view at display.jpg

    A few years ago, Sean modified a Ferrari 288, which had a 308 engine, transversely mounted behind the seats. The owner bought a wrecked Ferrari 355, which has a fore-and-aft mounted engine. Sean built a complete new rear chassis to accommodate the engine arrangement and also to fit the rather elaborate twin turbo system he designed, the intercoolers, etc.

    Ferrari and Engine1 (Medium).jpg Ferrari rear chassis.jpg

    Then there is the 7 second Buick grand national, actually a complete tube chassis car that Sean built, and the 200 mph Corvette drag car:

    7 second custom turbo Grand National.jpg Vette 06.jpg

    I assume some of you are familiar with the work Sean did on my 48 Studebaker, and the complete chassis and suspension he built for my Stiletto three wheeler. I could go on for pages showing all the custom suspension work Sean has done just in the last few years. As someone said above, give the guy a little slack.
    Trying to build a 48 Studebaker for the 21st century.
    See more of my projects at stilettoman.info

  20. #20
    President Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Above the Equator
    Posts
    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Bez, When playing around with racks I have found that it is almost impossible to use a front steer rack because of the front cross member. You would have to make the steering arms too long ...
    The Sunbeam Tiger suffers horrendously from this. You get a reverse Akerman effect that especially when back up and turning sharp causes one of the tires to drag sideways. Lower fulcrum pins have been known to snap while doing this. As noted longer steering arms (from a MGB) helped a little but for those with the money just have a whole new crossmember/suspension available for them now.

    Glad to see there is more to the story (48skyliner #19) and that this has potential for a positive outcome.
    '64 Lark Type, powered by '85 Corvette L-69 (carburetor), 700R4, - CASO to the Max.

  21. #21
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    here, sometimes somewhere else
    Posts
    5,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Bez, When playing around with racks I have found that it is almost imposable to use a front steer rack because of the front cross member. You would have to make the steering arms too long and I have never found an off the shelf rack that was narrow enough to get the right geometries for the lengths of the Stude a-arms. Looking at those pics. really doesn't do the work justice. I see incorrect king pin inclination angles. Unsupported ball joint plates and I won't get into the welding. But let's cut the guy some slack, till he gets it on the road and gives us feed back on how it handles.
    I guess, when I look at a project and think about modifications, the cutting and welding of a cross member doesn't faze me in the slightest. I don't get the concept that everything has to be a bolt in modification.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

  22. #22
    President Member 48skyliner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Carnation, Washington
    Posts
    577
    "I guess, when I look at a project and think about modifications, the cutting and welding of a cross member doesn't faze me in the slightest. I don't get the concept that everything has to be a bolt in modification."

    When we were installing the Skyline motor in my RX-7, Sean said he would have to modify the crossmember or the oil pan, maybe both. I said we are modifying the chassis in any case, I want the oil pan to be stock. A few minutes later I heard the sawzall running - he just cut the entire center section out of the crossmember. After the engine/trans was mounted, the radiator and intercooler installed etc, he took some tubing and built a frame around the sump as you can see in the photo.

    Final Install - Modified Crosssmember.jpg

    I cannot remember how many times on various auto forums I have read that people could not do a particular swap because the engine would not fit under the hood. Of all the various tasks involved in an engine swap, putting a raised area on the hood is about the simplest task I can think of. If you can't weld or do bodywork, cut it out neatly and use a row of rivets.

    Regarding the Avanti suspension, my favorite quote from Sean is "A really good fabricator only has to do everything twice".
    Last edited by 48skyliner; 11-16-2017 at 11:26 AM.
    Trying to build a 48 Studebaker for the 21st century.
    See more of my projects at stilettoman.info

  23. #23
    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    lafayette in
    Posts
    4,023
    Looks like Sean is a very skilled fabricator.
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

  24. #24
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Trochu, Alberta , Canada.
    Posts
    5,134
    I still want to know what provision exists for wheel alignment settings.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

  25. #25
    Commander Member sgriggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by gordr View Post
    I still want to know what provision exists for wheel alignment settings.
    It looks like the builder just replaced the king pins on the original upper and lower control arms with ball joints so he could install the Mustang knuckles. The Stude upper control arm design has caster/camber adjustment built into the dogbone, does it not? Seeing as how he didn't appear to modify this part of the design, I would expect that caster split/camber split adjustment could be accommodated using the adjustment provided by the original design. Additionally, it would be fairly straightforward to fabricate slots in the lower ball joint mounting arrangement that would allow either inboard/outboard (camber) or fore/aft (caster) adjustments to be made, wouldn't it?

    Scott Griggs
    Louisville, KY

  26. #26
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    here, sometimes somewhere else
    Posts
    5,334
    Quote Originally Posted by sgriggs View Post
    It looks like the builder just replaced the king pins on the original upper and lower control arms with ball joints so he could install the Mustang knuckles. The Stude upper control arm design has caster/camber adjustment built into the dogbone, does it not? Seeing as how he didn't appear to modify this part of the design, I would expect that caster split/camber split adjustment could be accommodated using the adjustment provided by the original design. Additionally, it would be fairly straightforward to fabricate slots in the lower ball joint mounting arrangement that would allow either inboard/outboard (camber) or fore/aft (caster) adjustments to be made, wouldn't it
    Scott Griggs
    Louisville, KY
    No, in fact the Studebaker adjusting point is the outer cam and eccentric that he cut off and replaced with a ball joint. Studebaker did not have slots or shims for adjusting the inner "dogbone" . That point is securely attached with grade 8 shoulder bolts and no movement is wanted or allowed. My advice to anyone contemplating any suspension mods.......know how the stock system worked BEFORE you start modifying and cutting. That way you can plan on things like having adjustability.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

  27. #27
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Spokane, WA, USA.
    Posts
    7,540
    Quote Originally Posted by bezhawk View Post
    No, in fact the Studebaker adjusting point is the outer cam and eccentric that he cut off and replaced with a ball joint. Studebaker did not have slots or shims for adjusting the inner "dogbone" . That point is securely attached with grade 8 shoulder bolts and no movement is wanted or allowed. My advice to anyone contemplating any suspension mods.......know how the stock system worked BEFORE you start modifying and cutting. That way you can plan on things like having adjustability.
    Additionally, it would be fairly straightforward to fabricate slots in the lower ball joint mounting arrangement that would allow either inboard/outboard (camber) or fore/aft (caster) adjustments to be made, wouldn't it?
    That most all OEMs choose to put the adjustments with hard shims and large bolts at the inner mounting points rather than small bolts clamped in slots at the outer end indicates maybe not.

    jack vines
    PackardV8

  28. #28
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,496
    This is the way to make them adjustable.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  29. #29
    Commander Member sgriggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky, USA.
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by bezhawk View Post
    No, in fact the Studebaker adjusting point is the outer cam and eccentric that he cut off and replaced with a ball joint. Studebaker did not have slots or shims for adjusting the inner "dogbone" . That point is securely attached with grade 8 shoulder bolts and no movement is wanted or allowed. My advice to anyone contemplating any suspension mods.......know how the stock system worked BEFORE you start modifying and cutting. That way you can plan on things like having adjustability.
    Bez, you're right. I was thinking that adjustment was at the frame end of the upper control arm, and forgot it was at the kingpin.

  30. #30
    President Member 48skyliner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Carnation, Washington
    Posts
    577
    Alan is right, of course. As I explained above, Sean was just getting started on this project when he was put to work on other things that are higher priority for the owner. He assembled the A-frames with ball joints and made a quick estimate of the geometry, moved the suspension through its travel and plotted a camber curve, which he thought was pretty good. The next step would be installing Heim joints at the pivot points, possibly building new A-frames from scratch. This would be fully adjustable for caster and camber. How good do you want it? How much money do you want to spend? If you have installed modified suspension on your car and have not gone through the procedure to plot a camber curve, how can you possibly know what you have? Just asking.


    In recent, years Sean has built fully adjustable A-frames for a Porsche 968 race car, which is a 180 mph road race car, a whole series of adjustable A-frames for a guy running a team of Mercur rally cars, and my Stiletto, which has upper and lower A-frames with Heim joints at each attach point, plus variable geometry for the pushrod suspension, to adjust the effective rising rate of the springs.

    Stiletto front suspension.jpg Stiletto Front.jpg
    Trying to build a 48 Studebaker for the 21st century.
    See more of my projects at stilettoman.info

  31. #31
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,496
    Every body has his own way of doing things. Myself, I prefer to build something that after I am gone the new owner can turn it back to stock in a few weeks if he is a shade tree mechanic. And other than a few extra holes, no one could tell the difference. Butching up a cross member, or putting holes that would stand out like a sore thumb is not my bag.

  32. #32
    Silver Hawk Member bezhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    here, sometimes somewhere else
    Posts
    5,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Every body has his own way of doing things. Butching up a cross member, or putting holes that would stand out like a sore thumb is not my bag.
    Some of us like Filet Mignon. Not just taking a bite out of the tail. My take is people with the skills, it's their car, and more power to 'em. as long as the modifications are safe.
    Last edited by bezhawk; 11-17-2017 at 08:05 PM.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

  33. #33
    Silver Hawk Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Trochu, Alberta , Canada.
    Posts
    5,134
    Regardless, that Avanti is a work in progress, and the front end, as pictured, is incomplete and not useable as-is.
    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

  34. #34
    President Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , , .
    Posts
    1,252
    " A really good fabricator only has to do everything twice ."

    thanks for that.

    Dan T

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •