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Rear Axle 53 Champion

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  • #31
    This car is a perfect example of the kinds of modifications I generally rail against - much work has been done, but without the benefit of research and understanding proper design parameters. Some folks say "his car, his money, his choices" but what I see is another beautiful Studebaker that can easily be relegated to the status of parts car if the gremlins cannot be sorted out.

    IMHO, people should understand what they are doing before they do it.
    RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.


    10G-C1 - 51 Champion starlight coupe
    4H-K5 - 53 Commander starliner hardtop
    5H-D5 - 54 Commander Conestoga wagon

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    • #32
      Personally, I would tear out all the suspension changes and install a Dana 44 with flanged axles and a disc brake conversion and be done with it! My opinion! -Jim

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      • #33
        Well guys it's Monday, start of a new week.
        I think we are making progress - but here's an update. The vibration had always started around 60mph, no change in vibration adding or reducing throttle. Shift into neutral at 60 + mph and let it coast no change in vibration until it slowed to below 55. At one point I didn't have a speedometer because it didn't work, the VSS was bad in the tranny and the wiring was atrocious behind the dash - fixed all that.
        It always felt like the vibration was coming from underneath the car and towards the back.

        This last weekend I installed a new transmission extension housing bronze bushing and seal. It felt too loose to me, too much play. Also installed a new left rear brake drum to replace the one that had been dropped flattened and cracked, or the car had been sat down on the brake drums.

        Then In the process of moving the tires from front to back, I had never had the front hub caps off , I noticed the rims that were on the front were uni-lug rims and the ones on the rear are some sort of old stock single pattern rims. Now Fred had told me he had the tires checked & balanced, I didn't ask where, but what I noticed was that only one tire / rim had new weights on it, the other 3 still had paint on the weights. Looking farther - crap - all the tires are dated 2003 but they look newer. No tire store will touch a tire that is 14 years old.

        This is going to be a part of the problem, the tires are bad.

        Took it on a test drive anyway and the vibration is better. Starts at 60 mph and stays constant. No change with throttle. Shift into neutral, let it coast and vibration is still there although now its not as bad and seems to be coming from the right front. OK, we got a handle on it.

        I believe what we have here is a combination of bad things. I know the rear Ujoint had failed at some point, the drive shaft was bent and badly out of balance, and the rear Ford driveshaft pinion yoke was bad. Had all that fixed. The driveline angle was way out on the rear pinion because the upper 4 link bars were too long and didn't have enough adjustment to get the pinion angle within limits. Most likely the transmission extension housing bushing went bad because of the driveline vibration, I fixed that. The rear diff oil mud was flushed out, changed and the outside axle shaft bearings & seals were replaced because I didn't like the way they looked.

        Now we have to get new tires and balanced and I'll bet the vibration has gone away.

        Steve

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        • #34
          Well, hate to resurrect an old thread but, no matter what we have done we have not been able to eliminate the vibration issue. Got new tires on the old rims, no joy. Fred decided he wanted new nostalgia rims, so got new rims, mounted new tires on new rims and balanced, no joy.
          In the mean time had done some needed work to front suspension so took in to get front end alignment. Rebalanced new tires and rims again - didn't like the way Discount Tire did the initial balancing. Alignment shop has a newer style laser alignment rack - said rear axle is in dead alignment with front suspension - so thats good news, but no joy on eliminating vibration.

          So, for various reasons we decided to rebuild the rear 8.8 ranger axle with all new pinion & carrier bearings, spider gears and ended up replacing both axle shafts as well, pretty much everything but the ring gear and pinion. (see pics of the axle shafts where the outer bearing rides). Set all the proper 8.8 adjustments like back lash & pinion death. Took on test drive - no joy on eliminating vibration.

          So now we are down to replacing the complete rear axle with something else to achieve a centered differential and going back to leaf springs to eliminate all the 4 link stuff- there is nothing else left. Now looking for an original Dana Studebaker rear axle that might be available locally. Checking on a few sources for that or something else from a variety of available donor vehicles.

          Just thought I would left you all know that we never did fix the vibration problem.
          Attached Files

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          • #35
            I hate to keep repeating myself, but installing the Nissan independent rear suspension like we did on my 48 Champion is not that complicated. The whole thing is mounted on a subframe that attaches with four bolts through the shock mounts as seen here, then all that is left to do is the coil-over shocks /springs, of which there are a huge selection available - we used the Carreras. This would give a huge improvement in both handling and ride quality.

            The unit from a 240SX will definitely fit, the unit from a Infiniti J30 is about 2 inches wider, has a heavier limited slip diff and slightly bigger disc brakes, fit just fine in the 64 Mustang we did, not sure about the width of a 53 STude. We used a Skyline unit, which is in between the widths of the others, but not easy to find. All of these are pretty low profile and should fit under the frame with little or no cutting.

            Click image for larger version

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            Last edited by 48skyliner; 01-09-2018, 03:25 PM.
            Trying to build a 48 Studebaker for the 21st century.
            See more of my projects at stilettoman.info

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            • #36
              Am I missing something or is the only vertical support of the car with that Nissan set up what looks like shock springs? The overall set up looks nice to me.
              Gary L.
              Wappinger, NY

              SDC member since 1968
              Studebaker enthusiast much longer

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              • #37
                Two things to the OP:

                1. If they left the mounts for the leaf springs in place when they butchered the rest of the car, I would just go back with a stock axle set up. It isn't like that thing is a canyon carver with that four link set up.
                I may have an extra rear axle here before long, and am just one state away from you. Sent you a pm.
                2. If your friend is running aftermarket wheels (and it sounds like he is) they need to be balanced on a machiine that locates the wheels via the lugs, and not with a cone in the hub hole. Makes a huge difference

                And to Ben: your skyline transplant is awesome. Really like the IRS.

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                • #38
                  "Am I missing something or is the only vertical support of the car with that Nissan set up what looks like shock springs?"

                  Coilover shocks are pretty standard on a lot of modern cars. The original Skyline rear coilovers are very long, would have reached almost up to the trunk lid! We used the aftermarket coilovers, originally with the chrome springs, which were 200 pounds/inch. They were too soft, 250s would probably have been fine, but I went with the 300s, a bit firm, but the handling is excellent. You can see that we have three sets of holes in the upper mount for ride height adjustment. You can also see the shock body is threaded for adjustment of spring preload. Several sizes of these springs are available in 50 pound increments.

                  The front coil overs are stock Skyline and are not adjustable. Aftermarket coilovers are available for most Japanese cars, some with ride height adjustment and some with shock damping rate adjustment.

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                  Trying to build a 48 Studebaker for the 21st century.
                  See more of my projects at stilettoman.info

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                  • #39
                    -if going back to parallel leaf springs, and a centered pinion rearend I personally would not choose to go with a Studebaker rear axle, but would go with the 9" Ford simply because of the awesome aftermarket support and no funky tapered axles.

                    -may be very basic, but looking back through this thread I have missed somewhere what the pinion angle is, and what the crankshaft centerline angle is...were they measured with the rear axle at ride height?

                    -having verified that the rear axle is parallel to the front axle in plan view (good news) have you checked if the pinion angle is doing something goofy with the 4 bar setup as it moves through its travel? If its changing its angle significantly through travel it may be causing vibration issues.

                    -you've changed so many things, and spent $ at this issue I can understand your frustration, and the owner's too. My own car's vibration (so severe I thought the rearview mirror was actually going to get ripped off its mount...no kidding) caused me so much grief , but I finally figured it out. There is so much info on the net with many 'professionals' giving information to help rodders out that it is so hard to know if the well-intended advice is actually factual or not. What helped me was going to a manufacturer of driveline parts to get the real low-down how to set up a system. I used the Spicer J3311-1-hvtss publication I got online. It's old now (2005) but contains excellent FACTUAL information from ENGINEERS who are in the business...and specifically targets compound angle installations. Give it a read, and for the umteenth time check the drivetrain angles and see if something has been overlooked before giving up on the present components you have. Cheers, junior
                    Last edited by junior; 01-11-2018, 06:52 AM.
                    sigpic
                    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by junior View Post
                      -if going back to parallel leaf springs, and a centered pinion rearend I personally would not choose to go with a Studebaker rear axle, but would go with the 9" Ford simply because of the awesome aftermarket support and no funky tapered axles.

                      -may be very basic, but looking back through this thread I have missed somewhere what the pinion angle is, and what the crankshaft centerline angle is...were they measured with the rear axle at ride height?

                      -having verified that the rear axle is parallel to the front axle in plan view (good news) have you checked if the pinion angle is doing something goofy with the 4 bar setup as it moves through its travel? If its changing its angle significantly through travel it may be causing vibration issues.

                      -you've changed so many things, and spent $ at this issue I can understand your frustration, and the owner's too. My own car's vibration (so severe I thought the rearview mirror was actually going to get ripped off its mount...no kidding) caused me so much grief , but I finally figured it out. There is so much info on the net with many 'professionals' giving information to help rodders out that it is so hard to know if the well-intended advice is actually factual or not. What helped me was going to a manufacturer of driveline parts to get the real low-down how to set up a system. I used the Spicer J3311-1-hvtss publication I got online. It's old now (2005) but contains excellent FACTUAL information from ENGINEERS who are in the business...and specifically targets compound angle installations. Give it a read, and for the umteenth time check the drivetrain angles and see if something has been overlooked before giving up on the present components you have. Cheers, junior
                      The drivelines angles were measured with the vehicle weight setting on all 4 tires. A digital drivelive angle finder (Tremec driveline angle calculator) was used to take the vertical measurements. I have since changed the vertical angle even more by tightening the upper 4 link bars to bring the nose of the pinion down even more.
                      The output shaft of the transmission is 3.1 degrees down. The driveshaft angle is 3.4 degrees down taken in the middle of the driveshaft. The pinion angle is 4.4 degrees down. Thus the calculated driveline angle is : at the transmission end is 0.3 degrees. The pinion angle is 1.0 degrees. So total calculated driveline angle is 0.7 degrees.

                      The horizontial driveline angle was taken by covering the floor with a roll of paper and using a plumb bob to hang from various points on the car and driveline parts and making scribe marks on the paper. Then using a manual angle finder to calculate the angle degrees. See attachment. The horizontal angle is 3 degrees.

                      The car has been test driven each time on the same 4 lane divided highway which is very flat. The cars speed was gradually increased up to 70 mph and over during the tests. No jerky motions with the throttle other than to see if the vibration changed any. The rear axle is mounted very frim and I can not believe the pinion is moving up and down or side to side.
                      Attached Files

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                      • #41
                        Well according to the Spicer article Junior referenced I was calculating the drive line angle all wrong. You have to calculate the "True" universal joint angle when its a compound angle. Compound meaning both vertical and horizontal.
                        If I did my math right (and it gets harry) here is what I have. by using their chart on page 8 I have identified the horizontal angle as 4.5 degrees.

                        The formula from spicer is; the square root of the horizontal angle identified by their chart squared + the trans output shaft verticle Ujoint angle squared.
                        So for the transmission output shaft compound angle = Horizontal 4.5 degrees squared = 20.25. plus vertical = 0.3 squared = .09. That sum is 20.34 and the square root of that = 4.5

                        And now at the pinion end
                        Horizontal angle 4.5 squared = 20.25 plus vertical pinion ujoint angle 1.0 squared = 1. So 20.25 + 1 = 21.25 and the square root of that = 4.6

                        So according to their article and if I did it right, the total driveline angle = 0.1 They say the minimum should be at least 1 in order to allow the needle bearings in the U joints to work. But in any case the individual angles should not be higher than 3.

                        It would be easier and less painful just to go beat my head against a wall! :-0

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                        • #42
                          Couple of ideas, hopefully you have all these bases covered already.

                          Have you been able to determine the vibration frequency? If you assume a 1 X rpm frequency (which is not always the case but a good place to start) you can use a simple Briggs&Stratton tachometer - technically a sirometer (https://www.ebay.com/p/Treysit-Brigg...ter/2254714949). This should give you a good idea of whether the vibration is coming from the driveshaft or the wheels/drums/etc. Quick and dirty.

                          Measure where the vibration is the most pronounced (maybe the floor pan in the rear of the car?) and have someone hold the tach in that area while the car is being driven and record the results.

                          if a measurement and calculation is made that doesn’t exactly fit any component that would be at 1 X rpm frequency, it will be necessary to start looking at components that could have vibrations of 2 X rpm frequency, and so on. You can buy more expensive vibration equipment that will allow direct reading of the frequency, but I have not had to do that in the past.

                          Engine vibrations have a specific frequency based on the number of cylinders - can't remember for sure but think it's 1/2 the number of cylinders. So a 4 cylinder would have a 2 X rpm frequency, etc. Check that however, I may be remembering wrong.

                          Another simple check - driveshaft runnout with it installed in the car. For example, I have seen worn rear axle yokes that the U-joint caps didn't fit tightly into (ie, side-to-side movement), and so the driveshaft was not concentric with the pinion..........and caused a vibration that took a while to find.

                          Is there a possibility that the rear axle housing was warped when the 4-bar brackets were welded on? If so, could that possibly cause some hard to find vibration?

                          I know these are some off the wall items, but sounds like you have covered all the 'normal' bases already (at least once or more).
                          Paul
                          Winston-Salem, NC
                          Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: www.studebakerskytop.com

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                          • #43
                            I don't have anything to sample vibration frequency or a chart to compare the results of what a tool of this nature might give you.
                            When I took the driveshaft in to a driveline shop for balancing, new Ujoints were installed as well as a new ford rear mounting flange. since the driveshaft balanced out fine, I wouldn't think there would be any loose fitting components.

                            Rear axle housing warped? Possibly - since it was a hack job anyway. If my math calculations were right on the compound angles the driveline angles are too high anyway at 4. something. I would have to tighten both the upper and lower 4 link bars on the passengers side only to narrow the horizontal angle to get the driveline angle down to 3 or below, but then the pinion to trans output shaft wouldn't exactly be parallel anymore.

                            Found Barry Hackney out of Houston http://www.studebakersite.com/ that says he is the biggest Studebaker parts supplier in Texas and has several rear axles. Only an hour of so from Austin. I can get an original Dana 44, drop in a set of leaf springs and get rid of all the whole rear end mess. Of course that means probably modifications to the drive shaft.

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                            • #44
                              I think that before you start disassembling the rear axle set up you should put four good tires and wheels that have been properly balanced on it and take it for a 70 mph ride.

                              Now mind you, this is just a rule of thumb, but NORMALLY driveline vibration comes on 45 to 50 mph, and even lower speeds with a shorter gear, so with that 4.11 screw, I would expect 40 - 45 mph.

                              Wheel and tire vibrations normally start over 60. There are exceptions. For instance out of round or belt separated tires or bent wheels can be felt at much slower speeds.

                              I don't like most aftermarket wheels. Find someone with a nice smooth driving Studebaker or Ford and borrow all four wheels and tires (assuming the tires and wheels fit this car).

                              As a last resort, I have an EVA (electronic vibration analyzer) bought from one of the car dealers who went out of business in 2008-9. You plug in all the parameters: engine type, number of cyl, tire size, rear gear, etc. and take it for a drive. The EVA will tell you what is vibrating. Only down side is you will have to pay shipping to Austin, and back to Guthrie, OK.

                              But first, I would try different tires and wheels.

                              Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

                              Lynn

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