Front Axle / Front Suspension: shouldn't cork gasket sit lower than this (KingPin bearing depth)?

[bsrosell]

Hi,
putting together the kingpins for my '57 Golden Hawk; have NOS king pins, and NORS (old NAPA) bearing/bushing set, with a newer, fresher cork gasket set in a separate box within the NAPA box. (MY assumption is they are newer, as they'd be pretty stiff if they were as old as the NAPA box, and doubt they'd be in a separate box). Regardless, see photo below; I pressed my new bearings in to ~1/16" as recommended in a post I found from a few years ago, to "accommodate a cork gasket". But this seems pretty high! How much should they stick up from 'flush', for "crush"?

I've seen recommendations for using an O-ring instead, but never an exact size for one (and siping/cutting into rubber as also recommended, for greasing, also seems prone to a propogating tear, into a split O-ring; though if this cork gets crushed too much IT will crumble and not be such a good situation either! ;-)

Anyway, whether cork or O-ring, how much should stick up from flush with knuckle? Thanks!
Barry

[JoeHall]

About 1/3rd of what your pic shows. Also, I highly recommend the o'ring, as the cork is basically useless, and will disappear in fragments. Once you install an o'ring, it will be right there when you tear it down next time, no matter how many miles or years have gone by. To find an o'ring, take the cork to your FLAPS and they can match it up for you. Get a couple extra while there, to hoard in case there's ever a shortage.

As for how much o'ring to leave sticking out, once assembled you want just enough squish so the grease will not get past, but will be forced out around the top bearing instead. But OTOH, you do not want so much o'ring sticking out that is causes excess drag on the steering knuckle. You want a wee bit of drag, fairly easily overcame with one finger on the end of the spindle.

[52 Ragtop]

Or go to your local hometown hardware store, most have a good selection of O rings.

Jim

[bsrosell]

About 1/3rd of what your pic shows. Also, I highly recommend the o'ring, as the cork is basically useless, and will disappear in fragments. Once you install an o'ring, it will be right there when you tear it down next time, no matter how many miles or years have gone by. To find an o'ring, take the cork to your FLAPS and they can match it up for you. Get a couple extra while there, to hoard in case there's ever a shortage.

As for how much o'ring to leave sticking out, once assembled you want just enough squish so the grease will not get past, but will be forced out around the top bearing instead. But OTOH, you do not want so much o'ring sticking out that is causes excess drag on the steering knuckle. You want a wee bit of drag, fairly easily overcame with one finger on the end of the spindle.

OK, the wisdom of seeking advice here is once again reinforced. It is hard to get out and around with my walker, so was going to "stick with the cork", but the O-rings DO make so much more sense that I went to CARQUEST (ok, Advanced whatever; still same guys, same place.... Siri still dials them when I say "call CARQUEST" :-). Here is what the cork (newer, not as old as the NAPA NORS kingpin rebuild kit) looked like just from the guy handling it and comparing it in his O-ring box to find the right diameter. Hmm, how long would that have last under compression and being torqued every time you turned the steering wheel? Good call and thanks for prodding me to do the right thing. Better to be slow and thorough than faster and wrong. (and boy am I slow! My little avatar photo shows my son steering the Hawk off the truck (rolling; NOT driving!), already 2010 !! :-( But, here is the proof for me that I dodged a bullet today. And the finished product. NOW, if I can figure out what sequence to put all this back together; springs and shocks (have spring compressors) first? Any reason NOT to hammer that pin in the lower control arm pin while it's on the bench vs on the car? Is there a "best sequence" when EVERYTHING is apart, vs the assumed "taking one thing out to fix" like the shop manual approaches life? Would hate to put something together, and then find THAT needs to come out or apart to put the OTHER part in, just couldn't juggle all the possible scenarios from four different Shop Manual directions (Springs, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, KingPin reassembly).... Everything is ready to go, just have to start somewhere and find out now. :-)

[Steve Winzar]

Hi All- I have just completed an overhaul of the front suspension of my 62 GT. This car was ownded by what I'd call non Studebaker people and evidence showed that the suspension was on its third overhaul. I found no evidence of any seal at the location the cork seal should be and in fact the bearing was mounted flush with the bottom of the knuckle. I'm not advocating the deletion of the seal here but I thought I'd share what I found. Properly greased, the excess grease squirting out seems to stop ingress of dirt. I found no evidence of dirt ingress and the bearings were re used as they were in perfect order. Now I wouldn't recommend the above practice, but it might allay any fears. I replaced the seals in my 61 Hawk resto with cork, the 62 GT got rubber O rings which were installed after I pressed the roller bearing in a bit further to accommodate the rings. I estimate that I would have had about.015" of squash for both cork and neoprene seals.
Steve

[bsrosell]

hi Steve! Just re-read your posting to my previous questions (I printed out) yesterday while contemplating the front end work. I DID "pre-start" the Bushings/"trunions nuts" on each pin; found I could get several threads on BOTH SIDES, to center them, and used my air-wrench to start some threads (NOS control arms). Didn't get more than a rotation or two on either side and the pin (all alone) was bound up; had to back off a bushing a 1/4 turn from tight to be able to turn the pin again. I KNOW when I do it for real and screw them all the way in I need to use my spreader tool, but seems strange one or two threads in the pin is bound up? I recall seeing posts debating what the "gap" in control arm ends should be... If too narrow a gap to start, I assume prying them apart 0.015" while assembling isn't going to be enough to make them square, unless the bushings cut threads "perfectly perpendicular", being threaded into the pins already, and compensate perhaps..

Re; the O-ring seal, I'm around a 1/16"; sounds like you think I should maybe push that bearing down a hair more? Too much rubber sticking up? Easy enough to do yet, sitting on my bench.

After putting three of them together, any recommendations on sequence when you have the choice of starting with ANY of the parts "first"? Planning on leaving the assembly of spring and shock until the end. Assemble both the lower pin and upper pins (w/ associated king pin and lower support) and thread in the bushings with control arms loose, and then mate the kingpin (and knuckle) to the lower support. And finally put in the spring and compress the lower control arm at the INSIDE end (like the manual instructions for removing /installing a spring) and bolting up the inner lower control arm bolts again, and finally the shock. What am I forgetting or not thinking of? Make sense or not? Thanks!!!!

[Jeff_H]

One comment before discussing order of assembly: I had a new outer bushing kit and happened to try threading the bushings onto the pins. Discovered that the threads on the pins had some dings or other minor damage thus making the bushings not a free threading "feel". I had to take a small file and dust off some spots where to a close exam the threads had been damaged. I am sure I could have forced it all together later but seems a bad idea to have some interference fit on this design.

So,

I don't know what order it was done at the factory... But, to the best I can recall from something like 18yrs ago....

-Prep A-arms with new inner bushings (the rubber ones) on the shafts.
-Assemble the king pins and knuckles with the new bushings/bearings/seals.
-Bolt A arms to the frame, but not torqued.
-Install King pin & knuckle assembly to the A-arms. I used the old A arms so no bushing threading issues like you have. I had the spreader (home made one) there to keep the arms from collapsing. This will require monster breaker bar to get the bushings torqued. A assembly may end up moving up/down to its limits. Reason I could not do this off the frame in a bench vice.
-Lift the whole assembly up/down through its range of motion to make sure nothing was binding. You should not tighten the washers/bolts on the inner bushings until the car is fully assembled so for this step they will be free to rotate on the shafts.
-If all is good, torque down the upper shaft/frame bolts.
-Take the lower arm off at the frame.
-spring compressor on the springs
-put the lower A arm back with the spring installed***

***With a bare frame, this may be nearly impossible. My compressor didn't compress enough to allow the lower A arm to go back up to the frame w/o me setting like a bunch of heavy stuff on the frame and using the floor jack like the shop manual shows. You may want to leave out the springs for now and put some threaded rod in the shock mounts to hold the car up until you have the engine and front fenders back on before putting those springs back in. If I did this now, I would have taken about a 100 pix with digital camera but back then I was using a 35mm and was frugal with my photos so don't have any.

PS, Gotta admire you fortitude for working on this with physical problems and using a walker. My elderly mom had to start using one last year ('16) after her 2nd fall and 3mo in the nursing home recovering. She's no longer driving and nearly house bound now.

[Steve Winzar]

Hi Bsrosell, I have only just now seen your posting but can pretty much agree with Jeff_H's commentary. It was stressed to me by a learned Studebaker member of our club that the shimming and clearancing of the knuckle on the kingpin should be performed without the cork/rubber seal in place and bottom nut done up very firmly. Clearance is supposed to be between .003" and .006" (mine was found to be virtually nil on both sides- they were actually in contact ). Yes, do push that needle roller bearing in a bit further- the seal only needs to be pinched down say 15 thou or so- less if it's cork. I fairly well followed Jeff's procedure a couple of years ago but I used short lengths of threaded rod in the bottom control arm holes to the frame and another longer one through the shocker hole, and gradually pulled the whole assembly together. You bring the keyed end of the Kingpin into its Support and start the nut on it. Well lubed, I assure you it can be done. Do use a safety chain (see pics) A ratchet ring spanner on this job would have been a real boon. Are you using rubber spring insulators on both ends of the spring?- tape these in place to make the job easier and then don't forget to put in the cup head coach bolts for the shocker mountings before you get too far along. As far as the Pins binding up in your steel bushes- they do tend to take effort to rotate. Are they really 'bound up'? I'd remove the Pins and then fully drive the Bushes home (don't over-drive these) now that they have been started squarely. Remove these again then reassemble the lot with Pins included and spreader extended. the feel should be very firm. Do pre lube the assembly. I had the Arms literally bolted down onto the workbench whilst doing this job.
Steve

[bsrosell]

thanks Jeff & Steve,
yes, I have the section about 'leave rubber bushing bolts loose until loaded" highlighted in yellow. :-) Wonder how many bushings have been ruined over the years by non-Stude shops ignoring (not knowing ) this..... Though should be same for Brand-X cars I suppose; NO-ONE knows how to work on a pre-80's car anymore it seems. Was fun trying to find a tire-shop to balance my Model-A Ford's 21" tires even :-)

OK, my biggest problem IS that I have just the frame; engine is on a stand, tranny was first thing I rebuilt back in 2010-11, so THAT'S done, and I suppose I could switch gears and work on mating them together and try to get them mounted, but sounds like even that isn't enough weight to hold it down and JUST use a floor jack, so better figure out a spring compressor method. I THOUGHT I had one, until I looked closer and realized McPhereson strut compressors require clearance on the outside, that we don't have inside our control arms. Sigh. I MIGHT do as one previous post from some time ago did with those, and cut the bolts off, use them to at least hold the coils in place and tighten them up a little more. Need to do some measuring and thinking before bothering with that; not that I plan on doing any McPherson struts so it is a useless tool anyway. (I don't get under my new cars except for oil changes or starters. Oh, for a hoist....)

I also am considering doing it the way the Shop Manual procedure for SPRING REMOVAL does it; lifting/compressing AT THE INNER end of the lower control arm, on the inner pin. That way I can have the whole king pin assembled and connected (and tested without spring), remove those four bolts on the inner pin-to-frame, and lift THAT end. That is suggested for removing the lower control arm procedure as well; only the upper control arm removal (in Shop Manual) has you lift the car with a jack (and, they had a fully assembled car for weight).
Need to think about it.

One question: My treasured, uncle's from WWII (mechanic) Snap-On torque wrench only goes UP to 100 ft-lbs (maybe 150, I forget; no more though!) If you are using a breaker bar, how in the world do you "know" you've got 170 ft-lbs? I've read elsewhere "just crank them as tight as you can"... But I wonder how much torque an air-wrench imparts? I kind of calibrated it to 75 ft-lbs for the differential as it worked much better than a socket wrench (prevented turning and slipping the wheels I think?)
Anyway, wondering what your theory was on using the breaker bar and "how much is enough" vs TOO much.???
Thanks guys!! Great help. Lots of posts that touch on these things but helps to "triangulate" by re-reading them and learning each time. Only want to do this once! :-)
(and, not take my head off doing it! I like the crow-bar, vs chain, through the spring; and the great idea of taping the rubber cushions to the springs!)
Barry

[Steve Winzar]

Sorry Barry- 170 ft/lbs is torque for what part?
Steve

[Jeff_H]

I have this style of spring compressor:



It goes up the middle of the spring. The hooks normally are spread the other direction from this picture and hang onto the spring. Unlike what appears in this one, the one I have the hooks are different lengths to account for the spring sloping from side to side. Makes it pull straight where I would think this one would pull such that the spring tends to lean?

Unfortunately, I could not compress the spring enough to allow the lower A arm to mate up to the frame w/o some added help from a floor jack below but it certainly got it most of the way there. Use a long punch or drift to get the bolts aligned. If you get a compressor like this, make sure to oil it heavily on the threaded rod before using it otherwise it will be a bear to turn with your ratchet and extensions as the spring gets tighter.

My car has a non-stude drivetrain in it and I had to R&R springs at least 3 times if I recall correctly before I got the ride height sorted out.

[Steve Winzar]

Hi Barry- I have PM'd you...
Steve

[bsrosell]

Steve, what I recall from both here and the manual (I don't have it in the house, but think so?) is 170 ft/lbs for the "Bushings" or "trunion nuts" on the pins in the control arms (for the kingpins). Seems like a LOT of torque, I hope the spreader tool I bought (from SDC supplier) is strong enough to take that without bending, and hope I can find something to give me the leverage to do so without slipping and falling down and splitting my face open on the frame :-) (my balance is zero... thus the walker). Thus my wish for a calibrated-torque air-wrench, I might try to calibrate mine up to the limits of my torque wrench, then dial it up just a hair (or the air pressure to it).

Sorry Barry- 170 ft/lbs is torque for what part?
Steve

[Steve Winzar]

Barry, I maybe open to criticism here, but I don't believe you need anywhere near that kind of torque on these parts- no way. I dismantled my suspension only a couple of months ago and I undid the Bushes with a standard breaker bar aided by a few wallops with a big rubber mallet. The new ones got nipped up the same way. The old setup was worn out and certainly didn't show any evidence of loose bushes. I had the Control Arms clamped down onto a bench to make the job easier to handle and had no problems at all. The spreader tool should be able to be removed by the time you need to tighten the Bushes- it will have served its purpose by that stage. So long as the parts can rotate (albeit with firmness) I can't see any likelihood of anything coming loose. Go have at it and put the torque wrench away
Steve

[StudeRich]

Steve, you must have very worn "A" Arm Bush Holes having been re-built before.

To screw these Pin Caps in until bottomed, we had to use a 5 FOOT Pipe on a 3/4 Inch Breaker Bar to get them all the way in and tight on 2 of these Suspension rebuilds, a '59 Lark and a '64 Daytona that had never been apart and they ended up just fine with a good alignment, turning easily and going straight down the road.