Ye olde valve rocker arm adjustment problems- 1955 259 V8, Presiident State

[Buzzard]

A little off topic but I always thought that one of the nicest sounding engines (not a Studebaker) was the early Chevrolet 327 Solid Lifter L76 & L84 rated at 365 and 375 HP respectively also referred to as the 30 / 30 solid lifter camshaft. These early motors had a great bore to stroke ratio and ran real hard for their displacement.
JMHO
Bill

[JoeHall]

The valve adjustment procedure may not be the issue. I went through the same issue and still had noisy lifters. For a totally unrelated issue I removed the rocker assemblies and found several of the small oil holes supplying oil to the rockers plugged with debris and therefore there was no oil, that is what was clattering not the adjustment nor the procedure.

Wow, thie definitely supports what Jack Vines has advised here several times: completely disassemble and clean the rocker assemblies, to include removing the end plugs of the shafts and cleaning them thoroughly, from the inside out.

[cwsimpson]

I adjust them cold, or warm, engine off.

If there is a false read on the feeler gauge due to wear on the rocker face (indicated by a circle worn into the face), that is easily fixed. Remove the rockers and re-radius them, on a bench grinder with smooth stone. Its not rocket science, just follow the contour and use light, gentle swipes to remove material till the circle disappears. Then smooth it a bit on a wire wheel and you are done. The 56J rockers are especially prone to wearing a circle into the face, and I consider this just routine maintenance anytime the rockers are removed. Seldom had to do it on a 259/289 though, probably because they get a lot more oil to the top end.

Joe-
Thanks for the advice. Not crazy about pulling headbolts out, but I did it just last week to replace valve seals on said vehicle. I don't think there's another way to get them off. I'll give the gapping one more shot here and see what happens.
cws

[cwsimpson]

The valve adjustment procedure may not be the issue. I went through the same issue and still had noisy lifters. For a totally unrelated issue I removed the rocker assemblies and found several of the small oil holes supplying oil to the rockers plugged with debris and therefore there was no oil, that is what was clattering not the adjustment nor the procedure.

Shoulda this read this one first. Good thought on checking that. I just wasn't crazy about taking out the head bolts again, as I just replaced the valve
seals. I know everything seemed to be working before I undertook this project.... er...I think. thanks for pointing that out.
cws

[cwsimpson]

I know, I am one of the least qualified forum members to comment on this topic. (But when has that ever stopped me?) Especially, given the credentials/credibility of some who have already posted. Evident here, is that there is more than one way to adjust valves. In my many years of tinkering with all sorts of engines, I have found that people develop "expectations" from the bulk of their experience. Therefore, if your experience is mostly with hydraulic lifter type engines, your expectation will be a running "sound" of that type engine. Very little valve clatter.

Folks unfamiliar with solid lifter engines, especially occasional mechanics, giving only a slight glance at an instruction manual, and relying on their "expectations," will invariably try to adjust the valve train for quiet running. Somewhere here, we are missing something. It is not the technique, nor the noise...

How 'bout PERFORMANCE??? Hot, cold, running, or static...get 'em adjusted. I have used a couple of the above mentioned techniques (with equal ineptitude of my talents.) Once they are opening, and closing, on time, in time...the performance trumps technique, or accompanying clatter.

John-
Thanks for your thought. When I decided to do this, it was indeed performance related. A quest for better mileage, power, and responseiveness.I guess I just figured if those babies are clattering away now, probably not too efficient. Maybe they were okay before and I just didn't realize it. Figured it was worth a shot. I just don't think a clattering valve train, which is what I have now, is going to help much in the performance department. Altair also had a great point about lubrication of the rockers, as mine were sitting on the bench drying or draining out for a couple of days. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I'm afraid we're in violent agreement. and yes, I'm running out of patience with the whole project and probably will "get 'em adjusted."

[cwsimpson]

This is the way I always do the valves in mine. Always cold, and always on the small side when gapping. Some will say its better to have some clatter. I prefer to have as little noise as possible. Its fast, easy and I haven't broken anything with this method in almost 50 years.

Get #1 to Top Dead Center
Exh.- 1 – 3 – 4 -8
Int.- 1- 2 – 5 - 7

Get #6 to Top Dead Center
Exh.- 2 – 5 – 6 – 7
Int.- 3 – 4- 6 - 8

Thanks Sal-
This looks pretty good. I'm gonna have to give it all another shot!
So when #1 is on the exhaust AT UDC stroke, #6 is on the compression at UDC, as it's #5 in the firing order? This might work pretty well. This looks like a little easier method in terms of moving things around. Thanks for your thoughts.
cws

[cwsimpson]

This is the way I always do the valves in mine. Always cold, and always on the small side when gapping. Some will say its better to have some clatter. I prefer to have as little noise as possible. Its fast, easy and I haven't broken anything with this method in almost 50 years.

Get #1 to Top Dead Center
Exh.- 1 – 3 – 4 -8
Int.- 1- 2 – 5 - 7

Get #6 to Top Dead Center
Exh.- 2 – 5 – 6 – 7
Int.- 3 – 4- 6 - 8

I do have another question- i know it's gonna sound dumb- how do you identify the exhaust vs. intake valves?- of course I could just pick out the loose valves and go for for it, but I think I need a little more clarity, if possible. Thanks.
cws

[Tom Bredehoft]

how do you identify the exhaust vs. intake valves?

The position of the valve relative to the port of the exhaust manifold should be a tip-off.

[cwsimpson]

This is the way I always do the valves in mine. Always cold, and always on the small side when gapping. Some will say its better to have some clatter. I prefer to have as little noise as possible. Its fast, easy and I haven't broken anything with this method in almost 50 years.

Get #1 to Top Dead Center
Exh.- 1 – 3 – 4 -8
Int.- 1- 2 – 5 - 7

Get #6 to Top Dead Center
Exh.- 2 – 5 – 6 – 7
Int.- 3 – 4- 6 - 8

Hey Sal-
Never mind on that last question. Seems obvious when you look at the engine. Ends and two middle valves seem to be exhaust on each side, as that's where the ports are for the exhaust manifold. Thanks again,
cws

[cwsimpson]

how do you identify the exhaust vs. intake valves?

The position of the valve relative to the port of the exhaust manifold should be a tip-off.

indeed!
thx
cws

[cwsimpson]

A narrow bladed "Mini Feeler Gauge" will gige you a better adjustment result hot or cold, running or static. Try it. Luck Doofus

Thanks, Doofus- by the looks of 'em, seems like they'd be handy.
cws

[GrumpyOne]

I'm convinced that hot and running valve clearance adjustments are the best and most long lasting. My old family mechanic back in my youth, (he looked like and had personality of Nikita Kruchev), did it that way with a simple feeler gauge and every time is was successful.

Later, I did it with the engine cold and would run through the routine three times with reasonable success and it wasn't messy.

About fifteen years ago, I had to "freshen up" a Lark 259 because it had a spun bearing. The rest of the engine was in pretty good shape as it had only 50K on it. I used my last set of JC Whitney chrome rings, the offending rod journal with a NOS crankshaft and the rod trued, new main bearings, refreshed the heads with new seals and lapped all valves/seats etc. The guy who owned the shop adjusted the valves by sound while the engine was hot and running by just leaving an ever so slight "tick" audible. Once the valves on one side were done, replace the valve cover and repeated on the other side. I drove it around locally for about a hundred miles, changed the oil, (SAE 30), and left Austin for the east coast changing the oil at 500 and 1000 mile intervals. Got stuck on the freeway in the Louisville metro area but was rescued by a local cop. (Turned out to be a failed (new) Airtex fuel pump which I left in place and bolted an electric pump next to it). Got to RI, drove around for two weeks then drove back to TX with the car loaded with Studebaker stuff without missing a beat. As an aside, i ended up cranking up the timing as gas was only 98¢ a gallon back in the late 1990's. That car would chirp even with the second gear start on the FOM! And I don't remember how many motor mounts I broke from having a heavy foot..

So my next valve adjustment will be with a hot running engine!

[sals54]

Hey Sal-
Never mind on that last question. Seems obvious when you look at the engine. Ends and two middle valves seem to be exhaust on each side, as that's where the ports are for the exhaust manifold. Thanks again,
cws

I know how it goes. Sometimes the question comes out before looking. Don't worry about it, we all do it. With cyl number one a TDC, adjust all the valves shown on that list. Same with number 6 at TDC. Easy and fast. You get all the valves adjusted with one revolution of the engine. And oil is not pouring out all over the place.
A little tip, though. I use the wrench to tap the top of the rocker arm above the push rod when using the feeler gage. Adjust the screw, then tap it again and check the adjustment again before moving to the next one. The push rod should be seated well in the rocker when checking the gap. And even with oil on the feeler gage, it should be just a bit "sticky" in the gap.
Good luck. I'm sure you'll get through this well enough.

[hausdok]

Running...
You will NEVER see any sort of racer (boat, car or airplane), professional or otherwise mechanic worth his/her proverbial salt...adjust rocker arms with the engine running..! I've been around all of these, never in my 66 years have I seen valve clearance adjusted with the engine running. They leave that to the folks that know better I guess.
Not just an opinion. It is NOT more accurate, matter of "fact" it's just the opposite.

I know for fact just how easy it is to NOT get clearances correct with an engine running. And if one does, it's pure luck. I've seen a few claim how good they are at this, and have been able to prove them wrong every time.
This topic comes up every now and again, with the same comments all around, and will still be able to show mis-adjustments in 99.99% of the try's.

You want proper mechanical cam adjustments, do it static.
You want proper hydraulic cam adjustments, do it hot and running.
Don't mix them up.

But...it's your engine, do as you wish for those that wish to perform this adjustment in this manor.

Mike

Mike

Forty years ago when I worked for Toyota it wasn't unusual to adjust the valves with the engine running. Toyota even provided special plastic drip trays that one snapped onto the head to capture the oil being slung and drip it into the engine. I'd adjust them cold first and then start the engine and warm it to operating temperature. Shut it down, remove the valve cover, re-torque the head, fit the tray in place, start it up and go through them again. Any that felt too tight when I passed a gauge through would be adjusted then and there with the engine running - just enough to quite the clatter, and then checked again with the feeler gauges. A vacuum gauge would tell me if a valve or two was way out of whack.

Yeah, I got oiled up pretty good, despite the oil catch trays, and I went through a lot of gauges, because doing more than five engines would thin the gauges, so I'd buy them a dozen at a time from the Mac guy. I did a lot of them during the 3TC recall days of '73 and '74 when we had to re-ring 'em, replace the valve guides and seats, re-grind the valves to a different set of angles and plug an oil circuit hole to force more oil to the rocker arms. I never had one come back for valve issues and they'd idle so quiet that if you were standing next to one with the hood down you wondered whether it was even running.

[StudeRich]

Interesting Mike, I bought a New '73 Corona but it had a neat little 22R Overhead Cam 4 Cyl. Engine also used in the Cortina, Celica and Pickup Trucks.
Never heard of the 3TC what were those in?