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Thread: Mecum 2017 Indy Auction Studebakers

  1. #1
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Mecum 2017 Indy Auction Studebakers

    It's about 7AM Friday morning, May 19, 2017. The big Indianapolis Spring Classic Mecum collector-car auction is underway at The Indiana State Fairgrounds. I'll be heading in there presently to spend the day.

    According to my Media Press Kit for the event, it is to be televised live from noon until 3PM today on NBCSN. Of course, it can also be seen live on the internet anytime the auction is underway. Just go to Mecum.com and follow the links.

    Four Studebakers are scheduled to cross the block today in this order: F195 (black 1963 R2 convertible we've discussed here), F196 (a 1962 Pace Car clone), F197 (Jonquil Yellow 1960 Lark convertible), and F198 (modified 1958 Scotsman Station Wagon street machine). F in the Lot Number indicates Friday; the sequential number indicates the order in which they'll cross the block.

    The auction starts at 10AM with Lot #F1, whatever that is. Who knows what number they'll be up to by noon when the auction goes live on NBCSN. You can tune in then and see what car number they are up to and kind of compote when the Studebaker numbers might show up. If the Studes make the live broadcast, I would imagine it will be closer to the end of today's three-hour broadcast window than the beginning.

    But if they aren't televised, as I said, you can still watch them sell live through the internet connection at Mecum.com.

    'Should be an interesting Studebaker day. It's raining hard now but that makes little difference once you are under roof at the auction. Mecum has temporary breezeways erected from building to building so cars and people don't get wet as they negotiate the sale and the cars move from the display buildings into the auction arena. BP
    Last edited by BobPalma; 05-22-2017 at 10:24 AM. Reason: removed "selling today" from thread title
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    Golden Hawk Member
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    I found it interesting that the two stock appearing cars, '60 & '63, sold and the two with modifications, '58 & '62, did not sell.
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
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    Silver Hawk Member Milaca's Avatar
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    How much did the '63 bring?

    In the middle of MinneSTUDEa.

  4. #4
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milaca View Post
    How much did the '63 bring?
    $67,500, reportedly SOLD....and to that you can add the 10% Buyer's Premium and 7% Indiana State Sales Tax, thank you. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
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    Silver Hawk Member Milaca's Avatar
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    Wow! It is nice to see that there are folks that REALLY appreciate Studebakers! Thank you for the report Bob, much appreciated.

    In the middle of MinneSTUDEa.

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Sounds like a very strong result. Cool!
    Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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    That encourages me to complete the 63 super red Lark I am working on

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    President Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Woo hoooo!
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  9. #9
    Speedster Member
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    What did the 1960 Lark Convertible bring?
    Live your dreams!

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hi-peral View Post
    What did the 1960 Lark Convertible bring?
    Hi, Al: Since I was involved in its purchase by counseling the buyer as to the car's condition and authenticity, per his request, I'd ask that someone else post that.

    Easier yet, you can go to The Mecum Website (Mecum.com) and see the results of the entire sale by simply giving them your e-mail address. Then you could post the answer here if you'd care to, assuming someone else hasn't already done so. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
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    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Speedster Member
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    Awesome Value! Thanx for the heads up Bob!
    Live your dreams!

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    $40,000 for the yellow 60 lark.

  13. #13
    Silver Hawk Member Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by studefan View Post
    $40,000 for the yellow 60 lark.
    Then a final cost of $46,800 after buyers premium and sales tax.
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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    The black '58 Scotsman retro-mod rod did not sell Friday. I saw where it was to go across the block again late Saturday evening. I was there Saturday but didn't stay long enough to see if it sold on the second run-through.

    I've seen it at previous auctions, so either the consignor wants too much money or it is being shopped around the auction circuit by assorted dreamers. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    Then a final cost of $46,800 after buyers premium and sales tax.
    That's correct, Gary.

    That's a ton of money, but the car is truly "one of one," so who's to say what it's "worth?"

    Only the owner, I'd say. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    One could look at the sale price being less than $36000 as seller gets paid sales price less 10% and auction fees. Not being involved in auctions hadn't known about the sales tax--how does Indiana handle it for an out of state buyer? Does an out of state purchaser have to pay sales tax? I know the State of Texas will want 6.25% when license is requested.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowtown Commander View Post
    One could look at the sale price being less than $36000 as seller gets paid sales price less 10% and auction fees. Not being involved in auctions hadn't known about the sales tax--how does Indiana handle it for an out of state buyer? Does an out of state purchaser have to pay sales tax? I know the State of Texas will want 6.25% when license is requested.
    Indiana Law requires that Mecum collect 7% Sales Tax on all the cars they sell in Indiana with two exceptions:

    1. If the buyer is a registered dealer in any state and has the proper forms to prove it.

    2. If the person buying the car is an out-of-state bidder bidding by phone, is not physically in the state when the "buy" is made (i.e., via telephone) and will be taking delivery of the car out of state when it is delivered to the buyer via a transport service or other means.

    Some states and municipalities have reciprocity agreements and will allow credit for sales tax paid in Indiana, but Mecum clearly discloses that they do not advise as to which states and locales have such agreements. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    President Member packardHawk58's Avatar
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    Bob, on a previous posting it was said the black 63 Convertible had been changed from a column auto to a power shift.
    The car was advertised with low mileage, I find it hard to believe why would it be changed if the car was such a low mileage example, of course it has been proven by the PO that it was a column auto from new.
    So do you think the mileage was correct?
    How many R2 63's convertibles were built?
    Do we possible know how many are left in existence? I know of Jeff's immaculate 63 convertible which has low miles as well, a more feasible 40 thousand.
    Do you think that is an exceptional price? Not many Lark/R2 sell for much more than 50K. I am only trying to compare this car to the R1 64 Daytona convertible that I had recently restored which is one of six made in that configuration.
    Brian Greenall
    Melbourne, OZ

  19. #19
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packardHawk58 View Post
    Bob, on a previous posting it was said the black 63 Convertible had been changed from a column auto to a power shift.
    The car was advertised with low mileage, I find it hard to believe why would it be changed if the car was such a low mileage example, of course it has been proven by the PO that it was a column auto from new.
    So do you think the mileage was correct?
    How many R2 63's convertibles were built?
    Do we possible know how many are left in existence? I know of Jeff's immaculate 63 convertible which has low miles as well, a more feasible 40 thousand.
    Do you think that is an exceptional price? Not many Lark/R2 sell for much more than 50K. I am only trying to compare this car to the R1 64 Daytona convertible that I had recently restored which is one of six made in that configuration.
    Hi, Brian: I don't know how many of the 31 1963 R2 convertibles manufactured are "left." After all, the hobby has yet to define what "are left" means. Does it mean operational cars, parts cars, or even Serial Number plates for long-ago crushed or rusted away cars that could be "made" into a whole new car with that exact same serial number, featuring that exact car's actual serial number plate that was saved with a valid title? I just don't know; it's anyone's guess.

    As to the purported "actual miles" on the subject car sold this past weekend, I'll be coy and post a photo of the car's speedometer, taken at the auction by me:



    I can also tell you that the car's original Production Order does not specify a Certified Speedometer, not in the regular list of options or on a side notation or anything of the sort.

    Of further interest is that Bill Pressler remembers an R2-engine Cruiser delivered new at the dealership in his home town of Greenville PA that was equipped with a Certified Speedometer. However, and this is important, a Certified Speedometer was on that Cruiser's Production Order.

    So to quote the famous Forrest Gump, "...and that's all I have to say about that [the odometer reading]."

    Yes, $67,500 was certainly a high price, but here is a photo of the car's Engine Number that might help justify it...or did to someone. I don't know who bought it:



    Was it "worth" $67,500? Well, it was to at least one person... BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
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    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    President Member packardHawk58's Avatar
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    Bob, thanks for responding to my questions. A certified speedo is only used in a cop car unless ordered as such? That's all they were available in out here.
    Of course I think NOS speedo's are still available from SI.
    I don't doubt that the car still retains it original drivetrain, engine , gearbox, etc just the mileage?
    Yes I have not seen or even heard of any R2 convertible project cars pop up for sale. Jeff's R2 car is the only one I know of , that's why I asked you if any others existed.
    Like you said its only worth what someone is prepared to pay and he paid a good sum.
    I also noticed through the Corvette sales that a 67 435hp convertible changed hands for $320.000 at the same auction.
    Brian Greenall
    Melbourne, OZ

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    President Member r1lark's Avatar
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    Bob, on the picture you posted of the engine number - I can't quite make out the digits/letters that show between the "JT" and the "N305". (Stupid little i-phone screen! ) Can you post the complete engine number?
    Paul
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    That certainly is an odd engine number. What I make out of the picture is JTR7S N305.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1lark View Post
    Bob, on the picture you posted of the engine number - I can't quite make out the digits/letters that show between the "JT" and the "N305". (Stupid little i-phone screen! ) Can you post the complete engine number?
    As best I can make it out, Paul, it is JTR3S N305. It's obviously not the car's original engine, which was JTS1228. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Another item of note regarding the Studebakers at the sale: The 1962 Daytona convertible was lettered up like a Pace Car (or Festival Car), but was neither. I don't remember it being represented as an authentic car, however, so no offense taken.

    Its Serial Number is/was 62V36967. I got back to my records and checked: That Serial Number puts it between the Festival Cars and the two actual Pace Cars built for the 1962 Indianapolis 500, in case anyone is interested. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
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    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Here's a photo of the four Studebakers from the same consignor, lined up in the auction inspection / display building before the sale:



    BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
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    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    Bob, I'm happy to report that the original owner of that Cruiser you mention is still with us and remembered having ordered the Certified speedometer. I remember cracking up, when I was able to ascertain the serial number of his car years later, that the production order said "Accurate Speedometer". Apparently, an accurate speedometer was optional at extra cost at Studebaker!
    Bill Pressler
    Kent, OH
    (formerly Greenville, PA)
    Currently owned: 1966 Cruiser, Timberline Turquoise, 26K miles
    Formerly owned: 1963 Lark Daytona Skytop R1, Ermine White
    1964 Daytona Hardtop, Strato Blue
    1966 Daytona Sports Sedan, Niagara Blue Mist
    All are in Australia now

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    President Member SScopelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobPalma View Post

    As to the purported "actual miles" on the subject car sold this past weekend, I'll be coy and post a photo of the car's speedometer, taken at the auction by me:


    I find it strange to have a 120mph and not a 160mph speedo in an R2 car.. Were the early pre-package "R" cars equipped with 120s?

  28. #28
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SScopelli View Post
    I find it strange to have a 120mph and not a 160mph speedo in an R2 car.. Were the early pre-package "R" cars equipped with 120s?
    Yes, Seb; they were. AFAIK, no record was made of when they finally "got in" 160 MPH speedometers for R-engined cars, nor was any record made of the first R-engined car to be so equipped. (That's not to say there isn't a Service Bulletin out there to that effect; I'd like to see it as much as anyone.)

    This car was built October 16, 1962. I'd bet $20 it was not originally equipped with the Certified Speedometer now in it....but have no way of proving it. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    If the serial number is really R3S N305, it would be a factory R3 block. Wonder if there is a B number by the distributor.

    Does anyone know if Studebaker used JT in front of the serial number for Larks/Hawks?

    In any case, it would be interesting to find out if this really is R3 block.

  30. #30
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    I seem to remember that in the 1970s there were a lot of NOS "certified" speedometers for sale at low prices. I imagine that when this car was "restored" it received a new speedometer.

    I hadn't realized that the four Studebakers were owned by the same person.

    I remember, also from years ago, that there was a red 1963 with an R2 that I noticed had a six cylinder car body number plate. The last that I knew, that car was in the mid-west. Of course it is easy to change a body number plate (after it was pointed out to the owner). Did you happen to note the body tag and/or take a picture of it?
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

  31. #31
    President Member SScopelli's Avatar
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    If you look at the speedo in the Mecum Photos, it had a different Speedo in it..

    https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0517-28.../#&gid=1&pid=4



    That Speedo in the Mecum photo, while having a "Lark" pointer is not Stude 160, let alone a 120 certified..

    This being a 64..



    This 63..

    Last edited by SScopelli; 05-22-2017 at 01:32 PM.

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