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Thread: 2018 Engine Masters Challenge - Studebaker V8 Engine Project

  1. #1
    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Lightbulb 2018 Engine Masters Challenge - Studebaker V8 Engine Project

    It is a reality.......................A small group of dedicated Studebaker enthusiasts will be helping Digger Dave Molnar prepare a Studebaker V8 engine to compete in the 'Vintage Class' at the 2018 Engine Masters Challenge.
    More details will be posted on this thread, and regular updates will be posted.
    Small steps at first, but it should be a fun, and very visible project in the Studebaker world.



    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    Very cool, wish I lived closer, I could get in the way..!

    Mike

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Actually, there will be all sorts of opportunities in the coming months.
    There are some parts that will be needed, and sponsors will be sought out.
    Taking baby steps right now to get off on the right foot.
    If anybody has any questions, PM me...or ask here!



    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Van Veghten View Post
    Very cool, wish I lived closer, I could get in the way..!

    Mike
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    Cool Beans! (Sorry Bob).
    Awaiting with baited breath...
    Bill

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    President Member junior's Avatar
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    cool X 10...this is going to be awesome...best wishes to the team! cheers, Junior

    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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    President Member BobWaitz's Avatar
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    Digger knows which end of a wrench to hold, that's for sure. This oughta be good.

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    Does anyone have any info as to N/A or blown (if so how) bored to Richard's CID or R4 configuration or perhaps one of Jeff's intakes? Any info is appreciated. Damn, I wished I lived closer.
    Bill

  8. #8
    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Here are the 2017 'Vintage Class' rules....

    http://st.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/2...Class32117.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
    Does anyone have any info as to N/A or blown (if so how) bored to Richard's CID or R4 configuration or perhaps one of Jeff's intakes? Any info is appreciated. Damn, I wished I lived closer.
    Bill
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    The current trajectory has Digger building a bored and stroked Stude V8 right at 340 cid.
    DEEPNHOCK Racing CNC heads (from Digger Dave's NEW OE cores), DEEPNHOCK intake, Evans Machine 4 bolt main caps, Jon Kammer modified oil pan.
    Digger has a cam setup and a cam drive..
    Am working on some rocker arm ideas (Jesel)..
    Lots to work toward...



    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
    Does anyone have any info as to N/A or blown (if so how) bored to Richard's CID or R4 configuration or perhaps one of Jeff's intakes? Any info is appreciated. Damn, I wished I lived closer.
    Bill
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    Interesting rules, but because this is normalized for displacement, would you not be better off entering a 259 stroke motor? Big bore, shorter stroke.

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    That's an interesting question. Who has data for this?
    I suppose one could run all the numbers given for all the performance engines out there using their formula and see which one gives the best result.

    (copy)To compensate for the different engine displacements, the average corrected torquequotient for 3 dyno pulls and the average corrected horsepower quotient for 3 dynopulls are added together. Corrected horsepower quotient may be adjusted by rulescommittee for less than 8 cylinder entrants.The sum of the average corrected torque quotient and the average correctedhorsepower quotient are multiplied by 1000 and then divided by the claimed cubicinch displacement of the engine. This will yield a quotient number to be used forscoring for engine dyno results. Final quotient numbers are recorded to one decimalplace on scoring form.9Rounding of numbers will be utilizing standard rounding:Example 2232.96 = 2233.0Claiming a cubic inch less than actual calculated cubic inch as stated in theENGINE-displacement section of these rules, shall result in disqualification. Claiminga cubic inch 5 or more cubic inches greater than actual calculations shall result indisqualification.
    Any displacement allowed.
    (copy)
    301 - DISPLACEMENT
    Unlimited displacement. Cubic inch is calculated by bore x bore x stroke x 6.2832.
    Bore is measured at top of cylinder where ring wear is not evident. Bore and stroke
    are measured to the third decimal place, i.e. 0.001. Cubic inches are calculated to
    one (1) decimal place i.e. 350.0. Any part of a cubic inch is rounded up to the next
    highest inch (i.e. 301.2 = 302) for the purpose of claimed cubic inch of engine as
    used in scoring. The cubic inch used in scoring will be a whole number; no decimal
    part will be used.


    Quote Originally Posted by 54stude View Post
    Interesting rules, but because this is normalized for displacement, would you not be better off entering a 259 stroke motor? Big bore, shorter stroke.
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

  12. #12
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    Interesting rules, but because this is normalized for displacement, would you not be better off entering a 259 stroke motor? Big bore, shorter stroke.
    Quote Originally Posted by DEEPNHOCK View Post
    [COLOR=#000080][B]That's an interesting question. Who has data for this?
    I suppose one could run all the numbers given for all the performance engines out there using their formula and see which one gives the best result.
    Yes, no, maybe. There are factors at work which change things:

    1. Yes, since the Studebaker V8 heads are inherently limited in their possible flow, smaller displacement engines can produce greater horsepower per cubic inch, but only if allowed to rev higher; however not allowed in the EMC.

    2. No, the EMC scoring algorithm seems to contain some inherent biases against smaller engines. Over the years, too many of the highest scoring Brand X entries were 400" with long stroke, short rod, small bore. Those larger or smaller did not seem to score as well.

    3. Maybe, it could be given the 6300 RPM upper limit, the longer stroke engines may have some advantages not immediately obvious to conventional thinking.

    jack vines
    Last edited by PackardV8; 05-17-2017 at 07:49 PM.
    PackardV8

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    President Member Commander Eddie's Avatar
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    I am not familiar with this competition. Can someone give a brief explanation of what this is?
    Ed Sallia
    Dundee, OR

    Sol Lucet Omnibus

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jack. Having just gone through some of this this last year with some of your Packard parts, it is a process that will take some time to figure out.
    That's why it is the 2018 Engine Masters Challenge we are prepping for.
    Who knows? Maybe if enough interest si ginned up, there might be more than one Stude engine entered.
    We'll see.


    Quote Originally Posted by PackardV8 View Post
    Yes, no, maybe. There are factors at work which change things:

    1. Yes, since the Studebaker V8 heads are inherently limited in their possible flow, smaller displacement engines can produce greater horsepower per cubic inch, but only if allowed to rev higher; however not allowed in the EMC.

    2. No, the EMC scoring algorithm seems to contain some inherent biases against smaller engines. Over the years, too many of the highest scoring Brand X entries were 400" with long stroke, long rod, small bore. Those larger or smaller did not seem to score as well.

    3. Maybe, it could be given the 6300 RPM upper limit, the longer stroke engines may have some advantages not immediately obvious to conventional thinking.

    jack vines
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PackardV8 View Post
    Yes, no, maybe. There are factors at work which change things:

    1. Yes, since the Studebaker V8 heads are inherently limited in their possible flow, smaller displacement engines can produce greater horsepower per cubic inch, but only if allowed to rev higher; however not allowed in the EMC.

    2. No, the EMC scoring algorithm seems to contain some inherent biases against smaller engines. Over the years, too many of the highest scoring Brand X entries were 400" with long stroke, long rod, small bore. Those larger or smaller did not seem to score as well.

    3. Maybe, it could be given the 6300 RPM upper limit, the longer stroke engines may have some advantages not immediately obvious to conventional thinking.

    jack vines
    Or. It could just be that these large displacement engines have large bores, which unshroud the valves, and increase airflow and volumetric efficiency, that allows them to take advantage of high compression, and a cam tailored to the rpm range that is measured in the contest sweet
    Spot for rpm. I am sure tricks like low drag rings to reduce drag, and clearancing the top of the bores to improve airflow around the valves are commonly done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 54stude View Post
    Or. It could just be that these large displacement engines have large bores, which unshroud the valves, and increase airflow and volumetric efficiency, that allows them to take advantage of high compression, and a cam tailored to the rpm range that is measured in the contest sweet
    Spot for rpm.
    Actually, not usually. For the EMC, some builders have sleeved the bore smaller or chosen the smallest bore available for that block and then run a longer stroke and a shorter connecting rod with a taller than normal piston pin height. They do have the advantage of aftermarket aluminum heads which can be modified to work, even with the smaller than usual bore diameter chosen. Many winning engines have heads and intake manifolds which are filled with epoxy to make the ports smaller and increase the velocity within the limited RPM range of the contest

    The engines which score the highest within the EMC rules are not the same type build which would make the most horsepower in an unlimited race engine.

    jack vines
    Last edited by PackardV8; 05-17-2017 at 07:54 PM.
    PackardV8

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander Eddie View Post
    I am not familiar with this competition. Can someone give a brief explanation of what this is?

    Sure!


    http://amsoilracing.com/events/amsoi...ers-challenge/

    (copy)
    AMSOIL Engine Masters Challenge

    Each year the AMSOIL Engine Masters Challenge pits competing teams against one another to see who can build the most powerful engine. A series of tests designed to measure torque, power and performance is administered to each engine, but only one team can come out on top to earn the Engine Masters crown. HOT ROD magazine covers the challenge from start to finish, generating extensive media coverage for AMSOIL and the AMSOIL Dealer network.

    (and in particular, the Vintage Class)

    http://amsoilracing.com/historic-eng...ers-challenge/

    (copy)

    Historic Engines Generate Buzz and Power On Day Four of the AMSOIL Engine Masters Challenge

    Posted on October 10th, 2015 4:19 pm
    By: Ed Newman
    One of the most talked about changes in this year’s AMSOIL Engine Masters Challenge was the introduction of a Vintage engine class. In a week already abundant with adventure, the Hot Rod staff seemed nearly giddy as schoolboys at the prospect of seeing Lynn Peterson’s vintage Packard engine run through its paces on the dyno. But the thrills didn’t end there. Chris Bennett championed a third machine from the School of Automotive Machinists (SAM), this time a Mopar 318 Poly. Not to be outdone, Ted Eaton, Jon Kaase (right) and Royce Brechler came armed with magnificent Ford Y-block engines. It was a power showdown of classic proportions.
    The day opened with Lynn Peterson’s team, Kustom Kemps, pushing that Packard through the paces in Dyno Cell 2. There were no problems inside the cell, but a printer problem hindered their ability to compare the numbers from their first three runs. The timer was stopped as this got addressed. The sound hammered the air and spilled out into the halls as soon as they resumed. Without incident they mashed out good numbers to get the bar set.
    There were actually two Mopar small block engines registered for today’s Vintage competition, but Buck Hinkle had to pull out at the last minute. The Mopar small block was introduced in 1956 and features a polyspherical heads, hence its name. To read more about the history of this unique engine design visit Wild About Cars.
    The SAM team approached the tasks of hooking up, firing up and making all its decisions in their usual efficient and unhurried manner, capturing data from each run and making calculated adjustments accordingly. Ever confident they finished their runs without a hiccup.
    Ted Eaton rolled his equipment into Dyno Cell 2 with the first of the Ford Y-blocks. According to an article at the Hot Rod Network, “The Y-block marked a significant development in Ford’s history. It succeeded the flathead in 1954 with an industrial-strength block and a contemporary, overhead-valve design (as GM had already done with its postwar Caddy and Olds mills). Right out of the chute, it produced 130 hp from 239ci, besting the 125 hp from the 255-inch Merc flattie. It also had none of the flathead’s overheating problems. It powered the first Thunderbirds, was a terror on NASCAR tracks, and helped Ford beat Chevy in the 1957 new-car sales wars.” You can read the rest of Drew Hardin’s 2002 “Y-Block Revisited.”
    Just before the lunch hour Jon Kaase strapped his Vintage Y-block into place, ready to pull some runs. The 5X EMC champion is always one to watch from the moment he steps onto the campus. Like the SAM team, he comes prepared, carefully assesses the rules so as to know precisely where the boundaries are as well as the opportunities he might be able to exploit. As expected his machine produced ample power to finish the morning in first place with one engine to go. In fact, his numbers were such that he chose not to even finish his allotted time, completing all the runs he needed in fifteen minutes rather than the 35 minutes designated. Maybe it was simply out of courtesy so that everyone smelling the pizza fumes could break for lunch and not have to wait that extra twenty minutes.
    After the break Royce Brechler’s Y-block got fastened into place with all the hookups necessary to begin putting his engine through the paces. What’s interesting is how these popular 1950’s engines have been adapted with modern ignitions and tuning. All of today’s competitors could leave with their heads held high.
    When the sound and fury of the engines was spent, a quiet afternoon took its place. Final inspections to make sure all was kosher ensued, with waiting and more waiting. The judges approved the engines and Jon Kaase received a check for $12,000. Runner up Chris Bennett and the School of Automotive Machinists added another $3,000 to the school’s winnings for an admirable 18,000 big ones. Congratulations all around.
    Tomorrow, we look forward to the Big Block Shootout here at on the campus of UNOH.
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

  18. #18
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    Looking forward to this one! Really enjoyed last years vintage class entries

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    Commander Member sgriggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackardV8 View Post
    Actually, not usually. For the EMC, some builders have sleeved the bore smaller or chosen the smallest bore available for that block and then run a longer stroke and a shorter connecting rod with a taller than normal piston pin height. They do have the advantage of aftermarket aluminum heads which can be modified to work, even with the smaller than usual bore diameter chosen. Many winning engines have heads and intake manifolds which are filled with epoxy to make the ports smaller and increase the velocity within the limited RPM range of the contest

    The engines which score the highest within the EMC rules are not the same type build which would make the most horsepower in an unlimited race engine.

    jack vines

    Jack,

    The way I read the rules linked in an earlier post, heads must be OEM cast iron pieces and may not be modified with epoxy or other additive means to enhance airflow. Epoxy, welding, or brazing is only allowed for repair and only on one port per head. Is this a rules change from previous years?

    Scott Griggs
    Louisville, KY

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgriggs View Post
    Jack,

    The way I read the rules linked in an earlier post, heads must be OEM cast iron pieces and may not be modified with epoxy or other additive means to enhance airflow. Epoxy, welding, or brazing is only allowed for repair and only on one port per head. Is this a rules change from previous years?

    Scott Griggs
    Louisville, KY
    Yes, definitely. In years past aftermarket aluminum heads were allowed. Jon Kaase took a pair of raw Mummert Ford Y-block aluminum castings, spent the equivalent of $10,000 in labor and flow bench time machining out the Ford ports and welding in Chevy ports to accept a Chevy tunnel ram intake. And yes, he won.

    Since only a few of the vintage engines have aftermarket heads available, this year OEM heads are required.

    jack vines
    PackardV8

  21. #21
    President Member SilverHawkDan's Avatar
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    Jeff, I have a connection to Jesel. Wayne races with us at El Mirage and Bonneville. I would be willing to make the connection if you have not already done so.
    Dan

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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Connection already made quite a while ago.
    Ed Eckhoff and I talk quite regularly, and Wayne Jesel and the custom shop at Jesel have already been contacted.
    Thanks for you offer, though...


    Quote Originally Posted by SilverHawkDan View Post
    Jeff, I have a connection to Jesel. Wayne races with us at El Mirage and Bonneville. I would be willing to make the connection if you have not already done so.
    Dan
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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    President Member Commander Eddie's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jeff. Now that I know what it is, I'm rooting for Studebaker!
    Ed Sallia
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    Golden Hawk Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    We have Richard's engine info on his bored and stroked 340 engine. (He keeps his spec's to himself, which is ok)
    I have a plethora of different intake setups... We'll choose whatever works the best...(even if it isn't mine)



    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
    Does anyone have any info as to N/A or blown (if so how) bored to Richard's CID or R4 configuration or perhaps one of Jeff's intakes? Any info is appreciated. Damn, I wished I lived closer.
    Bill
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff




    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

  25. #25
    Commander Member sgriggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackardV8 View Post
    Yes, definitely. In years past aftermarket aluminum heads were allowed. Jon Kaase took a pair of raw Mummert Ford Y-block aluminum castings, spent the equivalent of $10,000 in labor and flow bench time machining out the Ford ports and welding in Chevy ports to accept a Chevy tunnel ram intake. And yes, he won.

    Since only a few of the vintage engines have aftermarket heads available, this year OEM heads are required.

    jack vines

    I think that represents a positive change in the rules. 'Vintage' engines aren't true to their name if the team with the most resources can modify them into unrecognizable hybrids of more modern (and developed) powerplants. There is also a requirement that the competition engines must use the original intake manifold bolt pattern.

    Scott Griggs
    Louisville, KY

  26. #26
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    I do not keep the spec's to myself.
    Richard
    The annual all Studebaker Nationals and Orphan Car Drag Race is Saturday May 27th 2017 9:00 am at Brown County Dragway in Bean Blossom, Indiana. "Studebaker Drag Racing you can't beat it" For more information contact Richard Poe

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