Engine: Small Block Conversion Prices and Pitfalls - Champ truck

[STEWDI]

l want to re-power a '61 Champ that now has an OHV 6, O/D and a 4.27 rear axle.

l am not a mechanic. 'Wish l was because it would be a lot cheaper if l could do the work myself (but on the other hand, selling my house and buying another one out in the country with a big garage out back and all the facilities and the tools would cost even more!).

The decision has been made that, as good as Studey V8's are, l'd be better off in the long run to install a SBC. But, no cams, blowers, 400s, Ididits, whodunits,or trick electronics - just the 305 from uncle's old '81 Impala and the Rochester and the 200R or 700R that went with it (and Turner front disc kits). 'Wish l had an uncle with such a car (sadly, l don't). l just want it simple and effective and reliable.

Questions: Assuming (seldom a good thing) that l would find a similar drivetrain at a reasonable price from a fellow honest hobbyist, and have it installed in the Champ by a competent mechanic, what should l save up for $$-wise in my piggy bank?

With a GM O/D automatic, would l have to swap out the 4.27 rear end if l was just wanting to cruise at 60 mph?

What other parts (like GM motor mounts) should l look for to make this happen.

What are the pitfalls in my simple plan?

Your constructive thots would be very welcome!!

[PackardV8]

What are the pitfalls in my simple plan?

just the 305 . . . and the Rochester and . . . 700R . . . at a reasonable price from a fellow honest hobbyist,

Even an honest fellow may not know the actual condition and mileage of said engine/ tranny. Only way to know is to be able to drive it and evaluate the condition yourself. Don't overlook pickups. In later years, far more of them were equipped with V8s than were cars. Also, check for Cad/Olds/Pontiac/Buick, et al; they all used various SBCs in later years. Yer uncle might not have one, but every retirement home and 55+ apartment complex has several pristine low mileage GMs gathering dust. A used but usable powertrain is best found attached to a complete vehicle.

and have it installed in the Champ by a competent mechanic,

Finding the guy is always the most difficult part. The ground is thick with SBC parts; competent, low priced hot rod mechanics, not so much. Go to a lot of shows and ask every owner of a low-buck build who did it for him.

With a GM O/D automatic, would l have to swap out the 4.27 rear end if l was just wanting to cruise at 60 mph?

No, 4.27 in OD is approx 3.00 and will cruse fine at 60 MPH.

What other parts (like GM motor mounts) should l look for to make this happen.

Those who've swapped a SBC into a Champ might be able to list the '65-66 sedan parts which are applicable. There's enough room in a Champ engine compartment to swing a cat by its tail, so not many clearance issues.

Have you thoroughly anchored yourself on the slippery slope? Most complete SBCs from running vehicles will already have the AC compressor and PS pump and CC in place, so might as well use those.

jack vines

[junior]

lets, see...as I recall, 200r4 top gear = .67 overdrive, and the bigger 700's = .70 overdrive. that makes a 4:27 act like a 2:86, or 2:99 so you should be good to drive on the freeways all day long. buying a cheap good running sbc with should be no problem... but feasible when paying someone else to do the install? probably not. you may be better off going with stude v8 engine and trans...but once again the killer part is paying for someone to do the work for you. if you're a caso like me, why not just make the six with o/d a good runner? I've never driven one...are they not comfortable cruising at 60mph? cheers, junior

[wittsend]

If you are paying someone to do this you would be better off waiting to buy many of the parts until after you and the "competent mechanic" have come to a consensus on what you want and he needs. Some of the areas you will need to be aware of are:

motor and transmission mounts (likely special fabrication)

driveshaft alteration

radiator capacity, fan type

transmission control (column or floor) - as well as the Throttle Valve cable

throttle (carburetor) hook-up

fuel lines

wiring

The donor car concept you mention can be helpful but it is not the complete solution. As a rough guess I'm going to assume you will pay at least $1,000 for a decent running donor. $500-$1,000 for needed parts. I'd think you will pay in the $2000-$3000 range to have someone do all the work. Think this through because improperly executed these often become your nightmare and someone else's next "project car."

That all said sometimes one can be fortunate. I had a (tired) McKinnon powered '64 Daytona. I bought a 66,000 mile, 85 Corvette long block off Ebay for $171. Pick Your Part got me the Edelbrock intake and Edelbrock carb for $25 each. Ebay got me a Pertonix equipped distributor for $25. Pick Your Part also provided me with a recently rebuilt 700R4 (with convertor) for $80, a proper length drive shaft for $20. All said I did the engine and trans swap for well under $300 after I the sold the original engine and trans to offset cost. Spending countless hours on Ebay/Craigslst and looking in/under hundreds (and hundreds) of cars - and doing all the labor was the offset.

For me it was a hobby and to a fair degree an enjoyable way to spend my time. In your case just make sure you are going to be satisfied with the result. Laying out money for results that don't meet your vision is kind of hard to fit into the "hobby satisfaction" category.

[sweetolbob]

Roger, IIRC - you are looking at a pretty narrow window for a carburetor on an SBC with a 700R4 installed from the factory. Probably early to mid 80's time frame. It's going to be hard to find a quality donor car in good nick for a transplant. I know one can bolt all kinds of SBC's to 700R4's as I've done a fair number but the need to do that just raised the level of cost and difficulty.

In my mind, I think you might be better off to find a donor Stude engine that will bolt in if you are happy with your tranny and install a different rear end ratio. I know there are some complications involved but in my mind the ability to find a mechanic that can help are raised by a order of magnitude.

There are a number of us on the forum that could go to the local pic-a-part, grab an engine and trans along with some other parts we might need, fab up the necessary mounts and forge ahead. The problem that scenario presents to you is it would probably take a full fledged Rod Shop in this day and age to find the help necessary to do what you want.

I love throwing SBC's into about anything that has wheels but the little issues and nuances involved would cost a ton at a shop that hasn't done it.

The last alternative is to ask the local Stude club what abilities are available that they know of and base your decision from there.

Bob

[jts359]

Have you tried driving the truck as is ? The wife has a 64 Champ its built as yours is and its fun to drive , Granted you have to anticipate hills etc but its not bad , Last summer we drove it to the Rhode Island meet , Two weeks ago it went to York with a bunch of parts in it , And in May its going to So Bend , On top of it all gets over 21mpg at 65mph , Ed

[STEWDI]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies. Much appreciated!

[studebakerkid]

Before the Toyota T cab stuck in 5th coming down from the cabin I was surprised at how well a half worn out 20R with a five speed worked. I used a Ford 1/2 ton differential with 3.50 some gears and used it to haul gravel and I loaded it for all the suspension was worth. It ran fine down the highway too. This truck I put together for my great nephew and for me to haul pallets and other bulky stuff till he needs it. Since he is only nine I have some time to get another transmission for it. First off you will NOT want to pay a shop their ungodly flat rate to put your truck together. Everthing willl have to be custom made but back when I was taking my automotive courses in college I was the student that was picked to do the transplants like this.


I suggest that you seek out an automotive trades school and have your T cab be a project for one of their students if you decide to proceed BUT first I would go through the truck in its current configuration. I am running stock brakes on mine and eventhough they are not self energizing I can telll you that I have plenty of brakes. I had to be carefull in town running empty to not lock up all four when someone did something stupid infront of me.

In my case the Toyota T cab I did not have any choice because the block had cracks large enough for skunks to nest and even the differential was frozen solid. Yes i could have robbed parts from the one sitting at my folks that has a V8 and OD and even self energizing brakes BUt if I do not get it back on the road it will be a project truck for someone else. I have seen to many old cars get crushed because of that clunkers for cash thing or someone just not knowing better. I wish i had better health so I could take on more projects.......You might even find a Stude guy up in your area that help you with a project or fixing what you have.

[bob1944]

If you just have to have a SBC you can get a crate engine every thing new for the cost of rebuilding a used motor that you know nothing about cost about $2,000. Don't know about the OD GM trans around my area a full mechanical 700R4 will run about $2,500 with no core. A Stude V-8 and trans maybe a bit more.

[tsenecal]

Another solution would be to keep an eye on the classified ads for a nice v-8 powered Champ, and sell yours to somebody that would be happy with the six cyl. You could save a lot of labor costs, and then learn to do some mechanical on your new truck as it needs it.