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JDP
09-25-2007, 10:27 PM
I made a mental note to document the cost and my labor hours to rebuild a 289, so I'm doing it with the R2 GT Hawk. Here's what I have so far.


Rod/main bearings $220.00
Cam bearings $50.00
pistons $225.00
Rings $60.00
Gasket kit $120
freeze plugs $12.00
modern front seal kit $7.00
Perfect Circle valve seals $35.00

Total Parts $729

Machine shop labor

Machine heads for seals $120
Hot tank heads/grind valves $130
Hot tank block/bore/install cam bearings.$400


Machine shop labor. $650

Total cost $1379.00

Subtract about $600 for a "basic" rebuild using stock pistons, no fancy valve seals. ( basic build under $800)
I estimate about 8-12 hours labor to do a rebuild, but I'll have a exact figure in a day or so.







JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

John Ratliff
09-25-2007, 11:10 PM
JDP, What rate are you useing for labor? I am about to have my 259 rebuilt.

John Ratliff
http://static.flickr.com/102/302372902_63249ab71a_m.jpg

StudeRich
09-25-2007, 11:13 PM
So John, is that $400.00 then for the Block machine shop labor?

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

fmarshall
09-25-2007, 11:26 PM
Any chance that you are going to do a how-to, with pictures and special tips as only a highly experienced Studebaker lover can do?

That way the rest of us can effect a JDP quality rebuild.

========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA

Dick Steinkamp
09-25-2007, 11:32 PM
Hopefully, you can get away with just those items. Maybe even just rings, bearings, and lap in valves.

Most major rebuilds, however, would include things like: new valves, valve springs, valve guides, keepers, valve seat inserts, 3 angle job on valve seats, rebuild rocker shafts, deck block, true up heads, timing gear set, rebuild rods, line bore mains, new (or reground) cam, new oil pump, grind (and/or polish) crank.

Again, you can often get away with less, but if the car is a "keeper" I would most likely do a complete rebuild. I think Leonard and a few others here had bad experiences with "short cut" rebuilds.

The other half (maybe more than half) is the proper assembly. JDP has obviously done many Stude V8's successfully. If you haven't, I'd pay whatever it takes to have a Stude V8 expert do that part. After all the money in parts and machining, it's all too easy to end up with a hunk of scrap iron with improper assembly.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

JDP
09-26-2007, 12:01 AM
Dick, I have heard over and over about replacing damn near every part in a rebuild, but even on a keeper, it's usually not needed.i.e. if the guides are worn just a bit, the Perfect Circle seals will do a better job then NOS guides and the factory crap seals. As to 3 angle valve jobs, head decking, new timing gears and the rest are just a bit over the top on a typical Studebaker V8, especially replacing the aluminum timing gear and steel crank gear.
Having said that, don't use my rebuilds as a expert guide since when you pay for a pro rebuild, they will replace most every part since the customer is paying the bill. To me, a valve and seat in good condition will function just as well as shiny new ones after a valve grind. Same with the rest of the parts, if they are inspected and checked out, they'll do just fine. I rebuild V8's, just like the Studebaker dealer would have done, check all parts, replace ones out of spec, use the rest. I know how the pro's can charge 5-7K to rebuild a V8, I'm just not convinced it's worth the extra cost. I did bore this block even though the the bores checked out within specs though. The engine only had 60,000 miles or so on it, and didn't look like it even needed a rebuild, but it was apart when I got it.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
09-26-2007, 12:07 AM
StudeRich
Yea, I forgot to put the $400 in the detail listing, but did include it in the total. The $400 was to bore the block .040, hot tank the block 3 times total,once after the bore, and install cam bearings.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
09-26-2007, 12:31 AM
fmarshall

I'll be glad to share what I do, and others can chime in with other idea's. Basically, follow the shop manual, with a few enhancements. Here's a few I use:

Pull all the oil gallery and water/freeze plugs before you have the block hot tanked, pay to have it "cooked" long enough to get rid of all the sludge and left over sand. When you get it back and on the stand, wash it down with soapy water, flush everything, blow and towel dry, run a thin bush down all the oil passages. (Eastwood tools sells engine brushes just for that purpose.) I install brass freeze plugs and drain plugs. Chase all the bolt holes with a tap, especially the head bolts holes. If you are going nuts, you can grind off all the casting flashes on various edges before cleaning and paint the inside of the engine with Glyptal Red coating. Keep everything clean, including your hands when you assemble the block.
That and installing the crank and cam is all I got done today, as I put it together if I think of anything not spelled out in the shop manual. BTW, I use lots of assembly lube on everything as it goes together. Don't skip checking the crankshaft end play and bearing clearances, nor bang on any gears with a hammer.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Dick Steinkamp
09-26-2007, 10:43 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP
The engine only had 60,000 miles or so on it, and didn't look like it even needed a rebuild, but it was apart when I got it.


I'd say there is a BIG difference between what you are currently working on and a worn out motor that needs a rebuild.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

59r2
09-26-2007, 03:51 PM
Sorry if you took it wrong, I was only trying to show costs
of options and services on the east coast.

1959 HARDTOP R2 clone
1960 conv
SDC member since 1972

rusty nut garage
09-26-2007, 03:57 PM
For a quote "hot rodder" your spot on. I like you more and more and we've never met other than a couple of emails!!
Russ

quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

Hopefully, you can get away with just those items. Maybe even just rings, bearings, and lap in valves.

Most major rebuilds, however, would include things like: new valves, valve springs, valve guides, keepers, valve seat inserts, 3 angle job on valve seats, rebuild rocker shafts, deck block, true up heads, timing gear set, rebuild rods, line bore mains, new (or reground) cam, new oil pump, grind (and/or polish) crank.

Again, you can often get away with less, but if the car is a "keeper" I would most likely do a complete rebuild. I think Leonard and a few others here had bad experiences with "short cut" rebuilds.

The other half (maybe more than half) is the proper assembly. JDP has obviously done many Stude V8's successfully. If you haven't, I'd pay whatever it takes to have a Stude V8 expert do that part. After all the money in parts and machining, it's all too easy to end up with a hunk of scrap iron with improper assembly.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg



Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

Dick Steinkamp
09-26-2007, 05:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by 59r2


Sorry if you took it wrong, I was only trying to show costs
of options and services on the east coast.


Joseph,
My comment was in reference to JDP's 60,000 mile engine that he is presently doing. Your experience is more like what I have seen with a Stude V8. It looks like you've got about $4,000 into yours (without the supercharger) plus 26 hours of assembly labor (not counting the port job).

My personal opinion is that if someone thinks they are going to get a completely rebuilt Stude V8 for $1400 in parts and machining plus a day and a half labor they are probably in for a big surprise.

I'm sure JDP's engine will be a nice running engine when he's done, but not everyone starts with a 60,000 mile engine that "didn't look like it needed a rebuild" nor does everyone have JDP's expertise.

To rebuild a worn out Stude V8, my experience is a MINIMUM of about $1500 in parts, $1500 in machine work, and $1000 in assembly. Could be more if your crank is no good, cracked head(s), etc. You can "freshen" one for less, and if you are an expert on assembling Stude V8's you can save the assembly cost. IMHO, if you count on $4k, you'll not be too disappointed with the final cost. If you only budget $1400, you could be another "failed project" statistic when that is spent and the motor is not close to being done.

Russ,
Funny thing, but I've owned and restored far more bone stock Studebakers than Studebaker hot rods. I think because a lot of folks believe you HAVE to be one or the other (you're not allowed to enjoy multiple segments of the old car hobby) and that's why I get labeled a "hot rodder". Shoot, I also do antique tractors, SCCA racing, drag racing, and fly airplanes. I hope the word doesn't get out! ;)

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

studelover
09-26-2007, 05:33 PM
you all are kind of close, I am replacing most things. I have alot of machining, I bought all my parts.[:p]

Studebakers forever!

JDP
09-26-2007, 05:53 PM
Well, the short block went together like butter, just got hung up on getting that damn connecting rod pinch pin lined up on a couple of pistons. BTW, I learned from Ted Harbit to give the bolt a few taps with a brass drift and keep tightening. It'll make sure it seats all the way in. Also, especially with the Avanti pistons, make damn sure you have the correct ring gap. I'm 8 hours in to go from the bare block to a short block, no major surprises on anything yet.
Again, I rebuilding the engine the way your Studebaker dealer would, not replacing every moving part. i.e. I've never, ever, line bored a Studebaker blocks or needed to replace a valve seat. I do have a stash of good, used heads, valve spring and such that many will not, but nothing on this engine needed it yet. I also noticed in the other post that he paid almost double for his parts, $220 for a gasket kit is just a example. It also helped that a NOS cam, lifters and crank shaft came with the car.



http://stude.com/R2build.jpg
http://stude.com/R2build1.jpg

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Roscomacaw
09-26-2007, 05:57 PM
I would NEVER buy one of those "overhaul kits" unless I'd taken the engine apart and found that EVERY SINGLE part was worn beyond rehab.

There's this SBC mindset (actually Machine Shop mindset) that you just summarily replace EVERYTHING because if part of the engine's tired, it's ALL gotta be tired. Factor in that Stude parts ARE gonna be more expensive than BrandX parts (mainly 'cause there ain't a BAjillion suppliers competing for your bucks!) and a "rebuild" sounds daunting at best. This is often (if we can believe what we read here from time to time)the catalyst to 350-izing a Stude.
I know what the "experts" say and what I've gotten away with over the years. Crap - last time I was into Pete's old engine (11 years ago), I used one old compression ring to reassemble it because I'd broken one and didn't want to buy another set for one ring or wait while I located one ring. When I got it back together, you couldn't tell that I'd fudged on #7 cylinder. It ran for 11 years like that until it developed a coolant leak. That was certainly my fault rather than any of the used parts I stuck back together, of which new rings and valve seals were all that was really warranted.[^]



Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

JDP
09-26-2007, 06:25 PM
Bob, I was having this discussion with another old timer (Ted Harbit) and I related the story about rebuilding superchargers sitting on the curb in front of my house. I had a plastic can full of unpitted planetary balls and would sort though them until I found a set that would turn smoothly and put the blower back on the car. I'd usually get two or three seasons of drag racing out of that "rebuild". Of course I was a broke teenager then and would never try that today. I do wish you could still buy .001 and 002 bearing sets to save having to turn those 150,000 mile cranks. BTW, you are not alone using a old ring in a pinch, I had a buddy that even kept "good" rod and main bearing to freshen up his driver. :)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

54-61-62
09-26-2007, 08:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

My personal opinion is that if someone thinks they are going to get a completely rebuilt Stude V8 for $1400 in parts and machining plus a day and a half labor they are probably in for a big surprise.





Right on Dick. I get really really disturbed when someone calls a rebuild a rebuild but does not replace valve springs or rocker shaft bushings.

Sure valve springs may look okay to one's eye but most likly they will not have the same compression/pounds specs as the spring had 50 years and many miles ago. Also, I've seen many people complain about low oil pressure on a newly rebuilt engine - almost usually it turns out to be the rocker shaft bushings.

Sure you might be able to get away with a cheapy job but honestly for the labor involved please put at least valve springs and rocker shaft bushings in the damn engine.

Kent

52 Ragtop
09-26-2007, 08:19 PM
line bore and balance is a good idea! I had a block that I could not figure out why when the main caps were tightened the crank would barely turn, had it line bored, and balanced she spun real nice.

Jim

bob40
09-26-2007, 08:20 PM
One person can get 100,000 miles out of a rebuild using old parts and another can trash a complete overhaul using new parts in 1,000 miles.It can go the other way too.Mindset is correct.Whatever sets a persons mind at ease is the way they should go.

JDP
09-26-2007, 08:58 PM
Kent said:

"Right on Dick. I get really really disturbed when someone calls a rebuild a rebuild but does not replace valve springs or rocker shaft bushings.

Kent"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man, now I feel like a shade tree mechanic around you guys and your 7K rebuilds and your replace it all system. I suspect most will decide just how far they'll want to go after reading both sides of the discussion, but I think 5-7K to rebuild a 289 is just silly. BTW Kent, ever heard of a valve spring checker, that tells you if they are below spec, the Studebaker shop manual will illuminate you. I use the one at my machine shop to sort my R1/R2 springs and check for loss of pressure. Never had rocker arms wear enough to lose oil pressure, especially on a well maintained 60,000 mile engine. Cam, bearings, even lifters, yes, but never rockers. BTW, Do you buy your Studebaker rocker bushings where you get your muffler bearings ?
I guess I've just been damn lucky on my last few dozen rebuilds, but I'm willing to learn. I'm sorry I disturbed you with my calling it a rebuild, perhaps I should have called it a Studebaker shop manual inspired exercise. I notice the manual talks about checking parts, replace as necessary, not trash every part, good or bad. Sorry if I mislead the group by sharing my less then state of the art rebuild.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
09-26-2007, 09:26 PM
Bob got me thinking about the many levels of engine rebuilds. I suspect both he and I have often done "mini rebuilds" on a Studebaker or two. More then once, I've just had to re-ring a engine, or do valve seals and a block reseal. Many a V8 has been rebuilt that only needed a $20.00 set of valve seals to stop oil burning.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

fmarshall
09-26-2007, 09:52 PM
I never was a factory trained Studebaker mechanic; but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once ...

Seriously, money not an issue, I would/do inspect every part visually for wear and with the proper measuring devices where required. If a new part or a used part is within tolerance, then it is a serviceable part.

A serviceable part is just that. Not all new parts are even serviceable. As John says, the valve springs should be tested - new or used. It is very possible to have a new part that is out of spec. And if the new parts aren't checked, they go in the engine.

In my engines, I want to know that the parts are serviceable. I don't care if they are new.

========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA

studelover
09-26-2007, 10:26 PM
Question JPD, What do "rocker bushings" look like, do you ahve a pic and how do you check it?[8D]My heads have been done however the rocker assembly has not been installed on the head yet. My motor was stuck and full of water so I opted to replace alot of things. I often think that if you replace the rings and bearings on a running motor it should not need much more...usually.

Studebakers forever!

JDP
09-26-2007, 10:33 PM
You have to remember, the replace no matter system is how the owner ended up with 51K in the car before I got it. Turn the brake drums or rotors, no toss them and install NOS. Rebuild the power steering, hell no, buy a new on, and so on. If I'd continued that with engine parts that check out good, what kind of market would I have for a 50K plus GT when I was done ?

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

63larkcustom
09-26-2007, 10:49 PM
As someone who just got a $3500 rebuild on an ohv6, i wish i'd have had someone like JDP around that would have gotten it going as a decent reliable driver without breaking the bank. On the other hand, I have a basically new 170.

JDP
09-26-2007, 10:59 PM
I have rebuilt exactly one six cylinder many moons ago, so I would not be your guy, but for $3500, I might give another one a whirl.:)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Dick Steinkamp
09-26-2007, 11:33 PM
I'm not sure we are all on opposite poles on this subject.

It started out as a post documenting the cost and labor to REBUILD a 289. My comments were relative to the original post. It turns out that the engine being "rebuilt" was a pretty sweet 60,000 mile original that showed no signs of needing to be rebuilt...the bores were even in spec.

If that was my engine, I would probably end up doing even LESS than John did to it (why would you bore an engine that had bores within spec?).

I also agree that ANY part within spec should be reused during a rebuild.

Instead of a 60,000 mile engine still in spec, I was thinking more along the lines of a worn out motor that actually needed to be rebuilt...something with a couple of hundred thousand miles on it. In that case, there MAY be some parts that could be reused and some machining steps that you MIGHT be able to skip, but I sure wouldn't count on it for budgeting purposes.

Again, this is if you are looking for a REBUILT engine. There are all sorts of levels less than what I know as REBUILT that could be perfectly acceptable to you depending upon your budget and what you intend to do with the car the motor is going into.

IMHO if you want a truly REBUILT engine, you'll probably need $4,000 or so AND a shop that has experience with the Stude V8. If you can get the same results for $1400 that is certainly a much better deal.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

JDP
09-26-2007, 11:46 PM
Dick, I was OK with some that wanted me to replace good, usable parts, but when it came to rocker arm bushings, I was supposed to replace Studebaker parts that don't exist. As to the bore and new pistons, I just did it out of respect for the previous owner, I'll use the old pistons with a good Avanti block I have here.:)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Mr Mike
09-27-2007, 06:24 AM
JDP - Do you have a part # for the PC valve stem seals? I tried to look up the company website but can't find it.
Thanks,
Mr Mike

JDP
09-27-2007, 07:24 AM
They are small block Chevy, but require machining the guide. There is a modern seal that fits without any machining, but I forgot which one. I think it a Ford seal, N8 may recall.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Roscomacaw
09-27-2007, 10:51 AM
BTW, I have one of those "tools" to cut down the Stude valve guides so they'll accept the GM teflon seals if anyone wants to borrow it. All you need is a drill press to use this cutter.

I want to add that there MAY BE a plus side to summarily replacing just about every moving part in a Stude engine. You see, it results in the vendor community taking on the expensive mission of having replacement parts produced that might otherwise never be.:D



Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

JDP
09-27-2007, 12:32 PM
I have no data on the rocker bushings I should have replaced, nothing like it in the parts book or on the engine, nor has anyone I know ever heard of them. All I can figure is someone got a bill to replace them along with those pesky muffler bearings.:) I guess you could get the rockers bored and have bushings installed it you need to find a way to spend money.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

54-61-62
09-27-2007, 12:41 PM
I'd really appreciate if you guys would stop making me out as the "bad guy who over fixes engines".

Yes, I have done engine fixes that consisted of polishing the crank with sandpaper and cutting strips of aluminium foil and placing the strips behind the bearing sheels, and checking with plastigauge until I got a resonable clearance. One of these quote engine fixes took place in my Cousin's driveway in South Bend while laying on snow in January. Most of these fixes has worked well, but a couple didn't.

However, from those experiences I have learned that sometimes parts are cheap compaired to having an engine apart 5 times. I have no issue with re-using used parts, but I have yet to seen a 140k mile stude that has valve guides, valve springs and rocker arms that are within shop manual spec's.

Just because JP has an engine that dosen't need everything, don't
equate it as being a normal or representive rebuild for a usual worn out engine.

JDP
09-27-2007, 03:31 PM
Not making you out a bad guy, just confused by some of your comments. i.e., What the heck are rocker arm bushings ? You may well be correct that a engine with more then double the miles on this one would have more out of spec parts. The comment that ruffled my feathers was the comment by you "I get really really disturbed when someone calls a rebuild a rebuild but does not replace valve springs or rocker shaft bushings." maybe it's me, but that seemed to infer I was not doing a rebuild, or at best, a poor one, and with that I disagree. I did check the springs and they were fine, but have no source for mysterious bushings, even if the rockers had been worn, which they were not.
It's especially a concern to me because two or three folks on the forum are waiting to buy the car when it's done, and one even e-mailed me asking how much more it would cost to have the rocker bushings replaced and I have no idea what the heck they are. :)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

studelover
09-27-2007, 04:00 PM
I see, there is no such thing as rosker bushings on the stude v8. I asked the machinist today and he thought I was off my "rocker". I have to stop paying so much atention to what I read here, sometimes folks are not on the level.I have had more blood pressure medicine this past year then in others, after this car is built I am going on a vacation[8D]somewhere sunny, where they never heard of a Studebaker;)

Studebakers forever!

Dick Steinkamp
09-27-2007, 04:33 PM
John,
I don't think anybody has mentioned a $7k rebuild. I have said that my experience has been around $4k for a COMPLETE rebuild with the shop doing the assembly. 59R2 stated his prices, and without the supercharger and the aftermarket distributor, it was $3-4K. Where are you seeing posts that are stating $7k rebuilds?

Also, I haven't seen any posts here that say you should unilaterally replace all parts...good or bad. Why do you state that "some wanted me to replace good usable parts"? I can't find that post.

It's almost like you are trying to pick a fight.

On the rocker shaft rebuilds. I know you've never seen the need for it...especially on a 60,000 mile motor...but the rockers move on the shaft at the same rate that the camshaft is turning. The rockers/rocker shaft wears at about the same rate as the cam bearings/camshaft. Worn shafts/rockers will cause a drop in oil pressure, incorrect cam lift and duration, and noise if really worn. It is common practice on a COMPLETE rebuild to rebuild the rocker shafts on a motor so equipped. This would include MoPar Hemi's, Y block Fords, our Studebakers, and others. The procedure is generally to hard chrome the rocker shafts back to standard, bush the rockers and ream them to size. Outfits such as Rocker Arm Specialists http://www.rockerarms.com/ do this, but most good machine shops can do it or know where to farm it out. Cost is generally $100 or so per side.

I think that it is fine that you have chosen to just "freshen" the low mileage motor you are currently working on. As I stated, I would probably do even less than you are doing. OTOH, those that are rebuilding a motor with substantially more miles and/or choose to do a more complete rebuild shouldn't be ridiculed. There are all kinds of choices in this hobby, and it's hard (at least for me) to say that what somebody else does is wrong and laughable.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

54-61-62
09-27-2007, 05:16 PM
JP and Studelover,

I will not be ridculed or taken for a newbie who knows nothing.

Granted, JP you have gained the status of Studebaker queen-bee on the web. Unfortunately, I no longer will participate in a forum that JP's word is god and anybody else's experience is BS.

I won't take ridicule from others or studelover calling me "not on the level". There are many people whom I consider friends and good people on this forum, including Dick Steinkamp, Ted Harbit, Jerry Sarzoki, Bob Palma, Ron Hanson, Paul Revell, Gord Richmond,Studebob, and others. However, JP and studelover are not on this list after this latest incident where they ridicule me.

Kent

JDP
09-27-2007, 05:24 PM
Not trying to pick a fight, here's what I read about parts and machine work:

"Most major rebuilds, however, would include things like: new valves, valve springs, valve guides, keepers, valve seat inserts, 3 angle job on valve seats, rebuild rocker shafts, deck block, true up heads, timing gear set, rebuild rods, line bore mains, new (or reground) cam, new oil pump, grind (and/or polish) crank."

In my experience, even a major rebuild does not require all those parts and machine work. I've never replaced a valve seat, or guides, (knurled a set or two, swapped heads on a few more) nor a had a "3 angle valve job," or had to rebuilt rods. I learned to do the "pop" test on guides from a old Studebaker mechanic. He'd oil up the valve, stick it in the guide and yank it out with his finger over the guide. If he got a nice "pop" and a solid drag, the guides were fine. Not a fancy test, but it works.
As to to rockers, the Studebaker engine would have to be very poorly maintained to show any real wear there. It's easy enough to check for wear, but have only had one or two that I had to swap the rocker assembly.
My goal was to try and show that you CAN rebuild a Studebaker V8 without spending even 4K, but not by replacing a bunch of in-spec parts. Maybe I've just been lucky on the few dozen I've done and have not run into a Studebaker V8 that needed all that new stuff. BTW, if you ever ran into a engine so worn that you need new seats and guides and a head mill, buy a $200 pair of NOS heads rather then pay a machine shop for all that labor. As to line boring the mains, Ted didn't even do that with the Chicken Hawk, but then again, he only takes short trips. :)

I fear the new and better way to rebuild a Studebaker V8 will lead to a lot of crate motor swaps because of the expense, but I'm not still not convinced it's cost effective over the shop manual method.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
09-27-2007, 05:40 PM
Kent, I felt I had to reply to your post slamming me for calling what I'm doing a rebuild, then suggesting that replacing valve springs and rocker bushing was required. I explained that I checked the springs and that there are no bushings as far as I know of. If that makes me a Queen Bee, so be it. I can't speak for Studelover, but it also occurred to me that you might be pulling my leg about the bushings. (thus the muffler bearing comment) I'm sorry I ever started this thread, I never intended it to be anything more then a discussion of how I do a engine. In my opinion, there are many ways to rebuild a engine, from a simple, shop manual rebuild, to the price is no object, NOS everything job. I'll go back to doing what ever I'm doing on the engine quietly and let this thread die a natural death.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Jerry Forrester
09-27-2007, 08:22 PM
[quote

I'll go back to doing what ever I'm doing on the engine quietly and let this thread die a natural death.

JDP/Maryland
[/quote]

From one BWB to another, Thank You

Jerry Forrester
Be sure to check out my eBay store
http://stores.ebay.com/CHROME-CHROME-CHROME_
for your shiny Stude stuff
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/jerrystudebaker/LRinnerpanel1.jpg

JDP
09-27-2007, 08:28 PM
A super secret BWB salute back at you.:)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

stude53
09-27-2007, 10:06 PM
Okay, guys. You have me curious. What's a BWB?
1. Broken Wing Butterfly
or,
2. BWB, a so called `beginning wealth builder', is absolutely naive, unsophisticated and overoptimistic
3.???????

[img=left]http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/stude53/studesmall2.jpg[/img=left]Bob Feaganes (stude53)
53 Starliner Hardtop
Newton Grove, NC

JDP
09-27-2007, 10:22 PM
Long story, but basically it revolves around a Studebaker News group discussion in which I was getting flamed pretty badly by another poster. Those foolish enough to rise to my defense were called my "butt wipe buddies", so we started a BTW club with a secret handshake.:)) We had so much fun with it, that it sorta confused my tormentor and we later buried the hatchet.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

fmarshall
09-27-2007, 10:41 PM
Hey, wait just one cotton pickin' minute. JDP, PLEASE don't go build the engine quitely. I want so much to hear about all of the tips that you have to offer. Finding folks with lots of direct Studebaker overhaul experience is not too easy. So, please, please, please continue.

We are all adults here, I think. And as such should be able to have a healthy difference of opinion. To paraphrase Mark Twain, without a difference of opinion, we wouldn't have a horse race.

The best way to fix, if they need it, for connecting rods, rocker arms or shafts, cam shafts, pistons, etc. is to replace them with brand new factory units. But, our factory no longer exists. So, as with other cars, parts get "repaired" when needed. Sometimes, it is just to save money.

The overhaul in a box strategy may have been made popular by aftermarket VW folks. It used to be really, really cheap to get an overhaul kit for a VW engine. Engine kits have always existed, but not to the magnitude that you would get reconditioned rods, cylinders, pistons, exchange heads, new cam, etc, etc.

I had a 356 Porsche engine completely overhauled several years back that cost $6,000. But it did look and run like new. And it was only four cylinders.

Rocker arms can be replaced or bushed. And if the bushed material isn't as hard as the original, it won't be as good as a new one.

I am going out on a limb here saying that the rocker shafts don't move. And that means that each rocker arm moves at a rate that is about 1/4 of the cam, as the cam spins all of the time, and the rockers spen lots of time on the heel of the cam. So, each rocker arm would wear at a much lower rate, unless the material that rides on the shaft is weaker than the cam bearings.

That being said, they shouldn't need to be replaced or bushed, unless it was a very high mileage engine.

And Kent - please don't leave. Text is not a great way to communicate, as it is very, very easy to misunderstand intent.

As I see it, no one here intended to attack anyone. And as soon as it was pointed out, folks put up apologies.

Can we all please stick with this thread and continue for the sake of Studebakers everywhere, if for no other reason.

Come on, everybody ...

Kumbya my Lord, pass by way. Open up my heart there's a lot of things I gotta say ...



========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA

studelover
09-27-2007, 11:49 PM
54-61-62 I am not slamming you I thought you where talking about something that I have missed, I am in the process of rebuilding a 289 and because I have never done this before I try to keep my eye's and ears open. I have had many engines rebuilt and I have never failed at it. They are all running great. The rocker shaft and arms on my head are in great condition. Please don't take offense to the "on the level" comment. I don't knoe enough about these engines to slam anyone.:)

Studebakers forever!

Swifster
09-27-2007, 11:54 PM
John, I agree with how you are doing your rebuild. I was always trained to replace only what needed replacing. As mentioned, I've had new parts that didn't meet specs. I've reused valve springs, pistons, valves, etc., unless there was an actual problem with the part.

I hope you keep posting as you continue the build. As for the replacing everything approach, I may be closer to this with mine due to modification and hot rodding. My 289 is supposed to be a 50K+ engine and so far this looks like it may be the case. I'm kind of anxious to pull the heads to see what the cylinders are like. But I'm still boring for a 300 CI engine ;).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $1755.45)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg

JDP
09-28-2007, 07:52 AM
OK, if we're going to have a group hug, I'll see how it goes. :) Once I digested all the posts, I decided no one is right or wrong in their advice on how they do their work. Let's examine one used engine part as a example. I pulled the oil pump on the GT apart and it pasted the feeler gage test shown in the shop manual. I cleaned up the top plate up with a quick rub down on a sheet of 320 grit on a glass plate, and filled the cavity with assembly lube. Let's say that results in a used pump's 54.8 pounds of oil pressure at 3000 RPM, instead of 55 with a new pump. No question that a new pump is a improvement, nor that the used, but in-spec is perfectly serviceable. The fact that the repro pump and kits have had reported issues means even new parts are not a guarantee of perfection. (One repro pump I heard about did not even have the oil passage hole drilled)
Each new part "should" provide a incremental improvement in both performance and reliability, each owner must decide how far to go. As in the oil pump example, if you have any doubt at all, replace it, especially if you don't have a few rebuilds under your belt and know what to look for.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

PackardV8
09-28-2007, 12:23 PM
Greetings, All,

A very important point which has not been emphasized in this thread:

What is the intended use of the rebuilt engine?[u]</u>

1. Some here are rebuilding an engine just to get a $50+k show car on and off the trailer.
2. Some are bucks down and just trying to get a few more miles out of an occasional driver which would never sell for the cost of all-new parts or a professional rebuild.
3. Some are building a street/strip weekend warrior which will see 6,000+ RPMs occasionally.
4. A very few are building a full-on race-only engine.
5. Some don't have the time nor the skill to rebuild themselves, thus have to pay the pros their price.

Obviously, the decision as to what parts are "good enough to git 'er done," are different for each build. For the vast majority of CASOs, JDPs philosophy and techniques are the most viable. For the few with the money and the need to take it to the ultimate, they should go where their goal and their wallet allows.

Suggest we all begin our statements of opinion: "Here's how I intend to use this engine and here's why I'm building it this way.." One size does not fit all.


PackardV8

studelover
09-28-2007, 03:08 PM
That's a great point, in the beginning I was not sure what I really wanted. I was trying to make the 289 something of a street strip car, that is not what I wanted, I needed a car that I could hit the road with and take trips, some stop light to stop light play. It needed to be smoothe and reliable and run on mid grade pump gas. I had some work done to the heads and so it can beathe better for good pick up for the highway, we went with a new oil pump because all that internal stuff was rusted and caked up, when in doubt change it.I was over at the machineshop today painting all the little parts the oil fill-filter thing was full of crude so they put it in the hot tank washer thing. The filter is a spin on so we will get another. so far I have only spent 800.00 on parts and 1,400 on labor we are almost done. We have all the parts we need and there is just the reassembling of the motor, I don't know how much that will be yet, I think 3,000 will be it. That includes all the elec.ign. wires and coil and carb, I have been very lucky[^]

Studebakers forever!

wally
09-28-2007, 09:27 PM
Very interesting, JDP. A good example of an affordable engine rebuild done right! Now, for My 2 cents worth. Looks like the general consensus here as to what should be done depends greatly upon the requirements of, and resources available to, the individual. Really should be no controversy about it. Costly Align boring/decking/balancing, etc., aren't necessarily Standard Operating Procedures. But, I believe this: even if you are reringing standard sized pistons that are going back into bores that are worn within tolerances, don't skimp on the valve train. Used Valves themselves may be good to go for a long time with refacing, but the camshaft and lifters are subject to serious wear, even in a low, low mileage engine. Replace the valve springs and camshaft timing gear, with new ones, and have the camshaft and lifters reground, and what a sweet running engine the enthusiast will have! Also, if an owner is assembling their own engine, wash all the parts again in clean solvent--mineral spirits is ideal--and blow them dry with compressed air. Then, put the engine together with plenty of assembly lube on all internal parts to prevent corrosion and dry startup.
It works for Me. Thanks.
:)

JDP
09-30-2007, 04:14 PM
Jeff and I swung the engine in the GT today. BTW, the oil pump checked out fine, 70 PSI on the prime.

http://www.stude.com/GTR2/R2rebuild3.jpg
http://www.stude.com/GTR2/R2rebuild4.jpg

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

FAK
09-30-2007, 04:19 PM
Lookin' good John!

FAK

DWard
09-30-2007, 06:47 PM
John ----Looks great!!

Dan

Roscomacaw
10-03-2007, 03:36 PM
Looks nice, John.

I've been kinda busy of late and haven't kept track of all the ongoing threads here.

I will say, I can not recall ever doing what some describe here as a total rebuild. For one thing, I could never afford that - and for another, the first point (not able to afford it) has conditioned me thru the years to become "frugal" without having to give it thought.

I still contend that many that DO cling to the "replace it all" mindset are hoping to CYA by slathering on the money. And these folks might well get that approach from having asked some "expert" or rebuild facility what it would cost to have their Stude engine "rebuilt".
First off, any "shop" is likely gonna be wary of taking on a Stude engine to do because most of them have never SEEN a Stude engine and quite likely they've been led to believe that such a piece of iron was a failure to start with. Consequently - IF they're willing to take it in - they're gonna wanna replace EVERYTING to cover their butts warranty-wise. It's not just idle speculation - I know that such conclusions dicate how these vintage motors are beheld!
I believe, as JDP does, that this results in SBCs being considered for powerplants over reviving the original. It's thru discussions like this thread that some light is shed on the mystique and misunderstandings that have scared some away from redoing the Stude engines over time.
If having EVERY moving part in your engine replaced gives you a sense of security, fine. But if doing a rebuild smartly makes you feel good, that's fine too. The vendors love the former, your wallet loves the latter. Done smartly, your Stude's engine will probably outlive you.[}:)]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

StudeRich
10-04-2007, 02:19 AM
Look'in good John, but what is the deal with the homemade bracket for the alternator? Is that a temp. brac. to run it without the Supercharger bracket and blower?

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

HammondA100
10-04-2007, 03:48 AM
quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

Greetings, All,

A very important point which has not been emphasized in this thread:

What is the intended use of the rebuilt engine?[u]</u>

1. Some here are rebuilding an engine just to get a $50+k show car on and off the trailer.
2. Some are bucks down and just trying to get a few more miles out of an occasional driver which would never sell for the cost of all-new parts or a professional rebuild.
3. Some are building a street/strip weekend warrior which will see 6,000+ RPMs occasionally.
4. A very few are building a full-on race-only engine.
5. Some don't have the time nor the skill to rebuild themselves, thus have to pay the pros their price.

Obviously, the decision as to what parts are "good enough to git 'er done," are different for each build. For the vast majority of CASOs, JDPs philosophy and techniques are the most viable. For the few with the money and the need to take it to the ultimate, they should go where their goal and their wallet allows.

Suggest we all begin our statements of opinion: "Here's how I intend to use this engine and here's why I'm building it this way.." One size does not fit all.


PackardV8


Excellent point.. Time can degrade parts just as mileage.

My question is has anyone had any wear or heat stress issues with valve guides? In the aluminum head world that's a major concern as even moderate wear or one hi-temp incedent will cause a valve geometry issue which effects performance. How are the strength of these heads on a 259 say? As I am building my car for a long distance driver which could be driving more than parked.

Ches in Sioux Falls, SD
55 Commander Coupe hoping to be ready July 2008

JDP
10-04-2007, 07:19 AM
The alternator bracket does look home made, but I can assure you that it's the factory item for R2 GT's. The first time I saw one, I made the same assumption.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
10-04-2007, 07:42 AM
Studebob said:

"It's thru discussions like this thread that some light is shed on the mystique and misunderstandings that have scared some away from redoing the Stude engines over time."

That was my intent, but apparently I drove away yet another forum member because my opinion about a overhaul did not match his. Now would be a great time to remind everyone, that no one's forum members opinion is more valid then another's. I may know more about a subject then some, less then others, and learn more everyday.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

PackardV8
10-04-2007, 10:48 AM
Greetings, Mr. Biggs,

I concur with everything you said in your last post other than I would clarify the main reason the less-than-hard-core Stude owners choose a SBC; it costs about one-third as much per horsepower.

Just yesterday, the machinist who does most of my Studebaker and Packard V8 work said the same thing. He sees not just Studebaker, but Buick, Ford and everyone else coming to him for bids on an OEM rebuild. Too many of them compare the cost and just drop in a brand-new $1250 SBC 350. For those with even lower budgets, because the SBC is so popular, EngineTech has complete cheapo complete rebuild kits for them for less than the cost of a set of pistons for anything else. To build a Studebaker with the same new parts in the SBC EngineTech kit, the parts will cost at least five times as much.

For those of us who truly love Studebakers, we don't look at the cost or the horsepower, we just want a Studebaker V8 under there.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

Dick Steinkamp
10-04-2007, 11:14 AM
I've got to say that I've read and re-read this thread and can't find any poster that says that "everything" should "always" be replaced in a rebuild.

It can be tough "discussing" any subject via keystrokes, and this is where I think things got off track:

JP's initial post said...

"I made a mental note to document the cost and my labor hours to rebuild a 289, so I'm doing it with the R2 GT Hawk"

As we later discover, these costs apply to..."engine only had 60,000 miles or so on it, and didn't look like it even needed a rebuild"

IMHO, JP's costs (on this example) would not be "typical" of those to rebuild a worn out engine. I don't believe that "everything should always be replaced", but I do believe MOST of us in rebuilding a worn out engine will run in to more machining and parts expense than JP's example.

If you've got JP's years of expertise, his parts stash, and a 60,000 mile engine to rebuild, the example here is a good one. If not, I'd count on spending $4,000. If it comes out less, you're a happy camper
[8D].

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

JDP
10-04-2007, 12:35 PM
Here we go again.:) The only way I could count on spending even 4K for a rebuild is if I paid someone to rebuild a totally worn out example and go way beyond the shop manual guidelines. Having said that, again that's just my experience, and others may well differ. The only things I would normally add to my rebuild example if the engine were worn badly would be valves, guides, springs, oil pump rebuild and a timing gear if it was fiber, some crank work and odds and ends. That might bring it to $2500 and with shop labor could reach your estimate. I think we've hashed out both sides of the discussion by now and most folks will form their own opinions, and may disagree with both of ours.:)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Dick Steinkamp
10-04-2007, 01:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP
I think we've hashed out both sides of the discussion by now


I guess I don't see "two sides". I think we are in agreement, John. Is that OK :D?

I totally agree with you that the low mileage motor you just finished is a bang up job and will give many miles of great service.

It looks like you agree with me that a worn out motor "with shop labor could reach your estimate".

Do we HAVE to pick sides? :(

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

wally
10-06-2007, 08:36 PM
One comment: the photo of the engine you are installing has nothing covering the intake ports during the process. It is good insurance to cover any openings with duct tape or sheetmetal plates to prevent a wayward fastener, socket or even a critter from entering, and causing "Instantaneous Traumatic Disassembly" when the engine is fired for the first time.[:0]

JDP
10-06-2007, 09:45 PM
The manifold was on the engine within a few hours of that picture and I saw no critters running around. :) If the engine is on the stand for a day or more it gets the tape. BTW, I should fire it tomorrow.

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

sbca96
10-07-2007, 02:22 AM
When I did my couple thousand dollar rebuild, back in the early 90's,
they tested the valve springs, and found them within spec. I find it
very hard to replace things that have life left in them. I guess the
Studebaker claim to fame is expensive engine rebuilds, if we can not
beat the Chevy guys at the stop light, at least we can empty out our
wallets prior to getting to that stop light loss.[xx(][B)]

Give JDP a break, your average Studebaker engine can be rebuilt in the
same way, unless you spin a bearing and drive for another few years, I
think you will find his process will refresh a Stude just fine.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

PackardV8
10-07-2007, 11:21 AM
Hi, Tom,

The "expensive Studebaker rebuild" is a result of the no-volume cost of replacement components. Machine time and shop labor is basically the same for any V8. The difference is all about parts and parts-chasing time. This machine shop I mentioned does not charge any desk time for a SBC, because they always have a kit on the shelf and a couple more on the way. For old, off-brand stuff, it might take a couple of hours of phone and internet work, at $50 an hour, just to find and order the stock replacement parts.

When the machine shop I work with rebuilds a SBC, they only re-use the block, crank, cam, heads and rods. The rocker arms, pushrods, all valves, springs, pushrods, lifters, water pump, pistons, rings, bearings and oil pump all come in a EngineTech made-in-China-all-in-one-box-kit for less than $250. Compare this with the same Studebaker parts and you will be spending $1250 and up.

Slightly off-topic, but its about SBC volume versus Studebaker volume; at the height of production, GM was running three engine plants, and the Detroit plant alone was building 500 SBCs a day, about the same number Studebaker built in a good month. GM built millions of SBCs a year for fifty years and thousands are still built in Mexico today. Studebaker built a few thousand Studebaker V8s a year for thirteen years. This is why our rebuilds cost more and always will.

thnx, jack vines


PackardV8

GTtim
10-07-2007, 01:52 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

Here we go again.:) I think we've hashed out both sides of the discussion by now and most folks will form their own opinions, and may disagree with both of ours.:)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)




John, you may as well change your signature to 'Lighting Rod', don't you think?

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

Laemmle
10-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Over the many years of Avanti ownership (over 40) I have been told many many times to yank the Stude any go to the bowtie.....I do not care that my R-1 is "only" about 240bhp.....I only want my Studebaker engine to run well and move the car.......I could give a sheet how fast the car goes.....back in 1968 while in college I saw the aftermath of a drag race between an R-2 Avanti and a '64 Vette....the Vette was racing his brother-in-law on Red Road down in Miami Florida........the Avanti was estimated to have hit a Southern Bell telephone pole at well over 100mph......when I saw what was left of that car and the dried blood on the seats.....I never f-ed around with the Avanti again......that dear friends was a SOBERING experience one does not forget.




quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

Greetings, Mr. Biggs,

I concur with everything you said in your last post other than I would clarify the main reason the less-than-hard-core Stude owners choose a SBC; it costs about one-third as much per horsepower.

Just yesterday, the machinist who does most of my Studebaker and Packard V8 work said the same thing. He sees not just Studebaker, but Buick, Ford and everyone else coming to him for bids on an OEM rebuild. Too many of them compare the cost and just drop in a brand-new $1250 SBC 350. For those with even lower budgets, because the SBC is so popular, EngineTech has complete cheapo complete rebuild kits for them for less than the cost of a set of pistons for anything else. To build a Studebaker with the same new parts in the SBC EngineTech kit, the parts will cost at least five times as much.

For those of us who truly love Studebakers, we don't look at the cost or the horsepower, we just want a Studebaker V8 under there.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

dave smith
10-08-2007, 08:29 PM
I'm curious about whats so unique about a stude v8 that it requires a stude expert to assemble one. I haven't been into one recently (40yrs) but I don't remember them being much different from Cad or Olds or other 50's era engines.I also think the terms overhaul,rebuild,and remanufactured are not interchangeable. each has its own meaning.

Son O Lark
10-11-2007, 11:56 AM
Where's BP when you need him?

JDP
10-11-2007, 12:37 PM
Those prices are way higher then I pay around here. i.e. the boil block and install cam bearings for $425. I got that done, the block bored, the valves ground and guides machined for $650. The gasket kit, rod and main bearing prices are also about double what I paid from Phil Harris. and the "supercharger,water manifold,idler bracket,belt ,pulley, water pump,fuel pump,hoses,bonnet,air filer,
vibration damper grooved and rebuilt r-2 carb 3800.00" just blows me away. Not picking on you, just different vendor choices and local prices I guess. I once priced a rebuilt R2 Nemish engine with all the blower stuff installed at $6500 that was delivered at York just to drive the tire kickers away. No wonder it didn't work. :)

JDP/Maryland
64 R2 GT cost to date $55046.57
64 Daytona HT/R2 clone
63 Lark 2 door
58 Packard HT
56 Golden Hawk
52 Starliner
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

Roscomacaw
10-12-2007, 01:07 PM
From what I see was paid for a gasket set and for the bearings as well - it looks like the machine shop bought the stuff and then marked it up a SIGNIFICANT amount!:(

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

StudeRich
10-12-2007, 02:26 PM
stugatsr2; I see you tried to Reply to a post numerous times with no Reply, after copying a prior post, you can highlight and hit delete key on all or part of the prior post, type YOUR REPLY, then hit "post new Reply" to post it, thanks for joining us! :)

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

bkz81
10-13-2007, 01:56 AM
Just got my 289 out of the shop a month ago. Total for all work and parts including balancing and assembling the motor was 2938.38.

DEEPNHOCK
10-13-2007, 09:15 AM
Absolutely nothing.
Except for being able to adjust the crank end play, and tighten the wrist pin lock bolts, and cleaning the pressure relief valve...nothing.
But remember....
Technology in rebuilding has changed in the last thirty years.
Studebaker engines have not.
Labor rates have changed.
CASO skill levels haven't changed (for the most part) either.
Parts aquisition cost's have changed.
Attitude's have not.
Stude guys are a stubborn lot.
Draw your own conclusion(s);).
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by dave smith

I'm curious about whats so unique about a stude v8 that it requires a stude expert to assemble one. I haven't been into one recently (40yrs) but I don't remember them being much different from Cad or Olds or other 50's era engines.I also think the terms overhaul,rebuild,and remanufactured are not interchangeable. each has its own meaning.