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SergioG
03-04-2017, 02:02 AM
Hi, I came across a very good set of manuals for Mopar cars a few years ago called..."Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth Body of Knowledge (VB-4)" Which can be found here - (http://shop.mmcdetroit.com/products/icca-finer-points-of-a-mopar-vehicle-build-vb-4).

That said, I know this is a Studebaker forum and not a Mopar forum, but the reason I bring up these manuals is because they're GREAT for understanding how the factory "actually" did things while they built these cars. As we all know, theory is not always carried out 100% in practice and the Studebaker factor floor may have done things a bit different than a Shop Manual (which I have) might have indicated. What the author of these manuals did was to research things like; where stickers where placed - (i.e. at what dimension from a specific reference pint were they placed.) What type of information "Tags" contained from the factory floor...etc. On the Mopar cars that was important, because they had so many different stickers, tags, markings, etc and they all had a method to their madness.

So, my question to the forum is -- Does a similar reference manual exist for Studebaker? - An example of why I would want to review such a reference is that I am refurbishing my carburetor's air filter housing. I purchased the original sticker from S.I. -- so, my first question was -- where does it go - is it towards the top, towards the middle or near the bottom? - I know I can Google 100 picture of air filters like mine...but are those correct? Is that where the factory actually placed that particular sticker? --- Or did they even have that kind of quality control back then? - (I would assume so, based on some of the things I've read about Studebaker). - I know its a bit anal, but if you're trying to refurbish back to factory specs, I think knowing such minor details is important (at least it is to me.)

My bet is that such references don't exist for the Studebaker aficionado, but heck...I may be pleasantly surprised to find out they do.

If you know of any resource that would offer such "detailed" information, I would be very grateful if you could share.

As always, thank you for your help!

TWChamp
03-04-2017, 09:20 AM
Who ever restored my 1950 Champion 23 years ago put a lot of money into it buying NOS parts, etc., so I can only assume they got the decals correct. All these decals were in place except the oil bath air cleaner had none when I bought the car. When I was at SI a couple years ago I didn't recall what my neighbor's air cleaner decal looked like, so I bought one of each style. I finally got around to installing it a couple months ago, and used my neighbor's original unrestored 1950 Champion for the correct decal and placement.

The copper line by the blower motor is so I can monitor the fuel pump pressure as I experiment with various ohm resistors to find the best one to keep my 12 volt Holley pump at about 2 1/2 lbs. The oil fill cap should be engine green, and I will repaint it once I find a good match for the green paint.

62562 62563 62564 62565

tim333
03-04-2017, 12:19 PM
Great pics TW, I just bought a 51 Land Cruiser, they may be helpful for me also.

Dwain G.
03-04-2017, 12:27 PM
TWChamp........I had two questions about your engine compartment. One you just answered (yes, it has an electric fuel pump). Also, is that a brake fluid reservoir on the left inner fender aft of the battery?

Mark L
03-04-2017, 02:15 PM
Sergio, I'm not aware of a single manual for all Studebakers like you describe, but there are three things which might be helpful.

First, the engineering drawings for the parts and assemblies would describe how things should have been. They are stored in the Studebaker National Museum archives.

Second, several members of the club have produced "authenticity guides" which describe how the cars looked when they were new. As an example, members of the Avanti Owners Association International created an incredibly detailed authenticity guide for the Avanti. Avanti owners can now compare their cars to the guide and see what is original or has been altered, modified, or repaired over the years. This is particularly helpful when the goal of a restoration is to make the car look like new.

Third, some accessories sold by Studebaker had installation templates associated with them. The templates were used to help identify the correct placement of the accessory on the car.

For those of you who are show judges, what information do you use to determine authenticity?

hausdok
03-04-2017, 02:24 PM
I asked the same question here a few times after I got my PH in 2011. I'd been seeing cars at some meets where two identical models sitting side-by-side had differences in types of bolts used, application of undercoating, etc. I had hoped to get the answer here. I don't remember anyone ever really answering those queries.

I'd recommend just finding a car that's identical by model and year to your own, and has already been restored and judged at a meet and found to be extremely accurate, and then just take your digital camera, notebook and pencil and start taking picture of that guy's car and making lots of notes.

RadioRoy
03-04-2017, 05:49 PM
Be sure to find out if the restoration is accurate, as Hausdok said.

Restored is a nebulous term. Sometimes an expensive restoration will have many authenticity mistakes. Then, others will copy those mistakes on their own cars, thinking that the expensive restoration was accurate for no other reason than that it was expensive and it looks good.

Examples: In Northern California in the 70's and early 80's someone restored a 50 Rambler convertible and put a plaid interior in it instead of the correct stripes. My GF at the time was an upholsterer and everyone wanted her to redo their Ramblers with plaid. They refused to listen to the idea that stripes were correct.

Many Studebaker 47-51 convertibles have been restored with incorrect zip out flaps for the rear window - probably more than have been restored with the correct rear window attached directly to the top.

And we can go around and around about the rear fender welt that is supposed to be painted body color, too. ;(

Most/many people go with what they like and don't bother taking the time to research what is authentic. They go with what looks good to them at the time, which is not always authentic. An authentically restored car, with the correct colors, fabrics, screws, and stitching will never go out of style like cars built to the latest fads will.

Did anyone see the Avanti with the flared wheel wells in the videos of 70's car shows that have been circulating? It might have been really cool then, but how does that Avanti look to everyone's eyes now?

TWChamp
03-04-2017, 06:20 PM
TWChamp........I had two questions about your engine compartment. One you just answered (yes, it has an electric fuel pump). Also, is that a brake fluid reservoir on the left inner fender aft of the battery?

Yes, that is one convenience item the restorer added 23 years ago, to make checking and filling brake fluid easy. I wouldn't have added it, but since it was there when I bought the car, I'll just leave it.

studegary
03-04-2017, 06:39 PM
[QUOTE=Mark L;1042266
For those of you who are show judges, what information do you use to determine authenticity?[/QUOTE]

I was the SDC authenticity judge for the C/K Division for many YEARS. I used my memory. Before deducting any points, I asked the owner to justify/document the item that I deemed to be incorrect. I believe that those that have known me for 40 or more years can attest to my knowledge about these models and my fairness in judging.

RadioRoy
03-04-2017, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=Mark L;1042266
For those of you who are show judges, what information do you use to determine authenticity?[/QUOTE]

I have judged 50 and 51 at many meets, both zone and International. I have been lucky enough to own several original 50 and 51 cars, some even with original paint jobs, so I have a good idea how they originally came.

SergioG
03-05-2017, 12:04 AM
Hello Mark, ALL excellent suggestions and I never thought of the engineering drawings and much less to ask the Judges what they use as reference...VERY good idea.

I think I can find resource #1 in your suggestions, but how would I find item #2 for the Champions?

I've come across some of the template you mentioned in resource #3, but that would be a challenge find the accessory templates for each application you might have to work on.

I'm definitely going to look into your suggestions - THANK YOU!!!

SergioG
03-05-2017, 12:10 AM
Hello RadioRoy, please allow me to ask...when you Judge a vehicle in whatever category it may be entered into, do you go to the extreme detail of ascertaining whether the decals are in the correct locations, or is that something that doesn't play a role into your evaluation?

Also, when you say you've judged 50 and 51, what model would that be...all models?

SergioG
03-05-2017, 12:27 AM
Hello RadioRoy, you are SO spot on in your post above. Your observations are exactly why I asked the question. Although I'm not an absolute purist in the sense that I wouldn't add safety equipment to one of my cars (I would), but I personally like to keep the cars as authentic as possible. If I want to drive a car the has an airplane like computer, I'll jump in my wife's Land Rover. These vintage cars have a special look and feel the makes them just what they are - vintage classics. Therefore, in the process of restoring the vehicle, I try to pay close attention to details such the proper fasteners, where decades where placed, the proper color used on parts, wire color, etc. That (IMHO) is what makes these cars what the classics that they are.

Unfortunately, a lot of people rush to the end to get their cars finished. They lose sight of the fact that the journey to that end is what makes this hobby so rewarding!

I'm glad to find a group of folks that are so dedicated to their cars and their hobbies as I've found here on the SDC. -- Congratulations to you ALL for your dedication!!!

SergioG
03-05-2017, 12:32 AM
Hi StudeGary, cudos to you my friend! :!: My memory is not what it used to be....LOL! I also think that although memory (based on experience - in your case 40 years) is great, but do you every get to a point where you say to yourself..."Hmmm, I need to verify that." If so, then how do you perform the verification? What resource do you use?

SergioG
03-05-2017, 12:42 AM
Hi TWChamp, VERY, VERY nice...!!! Most of the air cleaners I've seen are much like yours with the decade at the upper section. I really like Mark's suggestions about the engineering drawings - very cleaver! I think the is as close to what I'm seeking as I'm going to get. The other really good suggestion is Mark's second suggestion regarding "authenticity guides." Those as long as they're accurate, are ideal. I'm going to look into both.

Thank you for your pictures!

TWChamp
03-05-2017, 08:23 AM
I see so many Studebakers with a mix of hose clamps.
Does anyone know which style hose clamps are correct for my heater and radiator hoses?

62586

JoeHall
03-05-2017, 09:37 AM
The 56J is probably the most researched Studebaker ever made; researched collectively since the late 1980s by thousands of 56J Only Registry members; nowadays comprehensive info on them is available, through the Registry. Nothing else even comes close the OP's request, regarding all Studes. That being said, with 56Js there are differences between the two plants (South Bend and Vernon), running changes between serial numbers, and maybe just convenience/common sense variances. It is conceivable, if a bolt was unavailable on a given shift, a, "close enough" bolt woulda been used. Similarly, if an oil filter sticker was 2"-3" off, I doubt they stripped the paint off to re-do the sticker.

Then too, alcoholism may account for some of the strange variances on the assembly line. Why else would someone place a foreign object strategically in the bowels of the car to drive the owner nuts with an un-diagnosable rattle? If alcoholism or other drugs were contributing factors, I wonder which shift woulda been most affected, but of course we can only speculate.

A good point I heard at an SDC seminar a couple of decades ago: Studebaker employees were just that-employees, working for a paycheck; not necessarily aficionados. Assembling Studes was not necessarily a labor of love, and employees were not concerned with the cars' being judged, other than by their supervisors. Those supervisors determined, "go/no-go" which pales in comparison to judges nowadays determining, "correct/incorrect".

The biggest problem I have seen is over-restoration, with vintage of restorations noticeable over the decades, due mainly to increasing technology; a 1980s restoration looks different from a 2015 restoration, etc.. Originally, they came with overspray on the engine, firewall, runs on the door jams, brush painted touch up spots in the trunk, misaligned panel seams, crooked stainless strips, etc.. They did not come with meticulously detailed engine bays, 10 coats of highly polished paint on the door jams, laser straight stainless, laser straight panel seams, spotless undercarriage, etc.. If there were one in a time capsule somewhere, it would lose major points in competiton with a later restoration.

So, if concerned with authentic authenticity, the OP would do well to look at as many factory photos as he can find, or search out as many survivors as possible.

bezhawk
03-05-2017, 11:38 AM
Avanti owners now have an authenticity manual. that i helped edit, and there are others in the works for later Hawks.

RadioRoy
03-05-2017, 02:21 PM
Hello RadioRoy, please allow me to ask...when you Judge a vehicle in whatever category it may be entered into, do you go to the extreme detail of ascertaining whether the decals are in the correct locations, or is that something that doesn't play a role into your evaluation?

Also, when you say you've judged 50 and 51, what model would that be...all models?

I have had several 50 Champions, 50 Commanders and 51 Champions. The only one I have not had was a 51 Commander. These cars came to me in the 70's and early 80's when originals could still be found, plus I looked at many more cars than I actually bought.
Generally the exact position of the decal is not a big deal for me. Under the hood is more about colors, glosses, and finishes, types of wiring and such. Take the hood latch, for instance. It should be cad plated. Some folks paint them silver and some folks paint them black to match the air deflector. The firewall is always body color; never black from the ridge down. And the inner fenders were black with body color runs running down over the black.

studegary
03-05-2017, 06:39 PM
Hi StudeGary, cudos to you my friend! :!: My memory is not what it used to be....LOL! I also think that although memory (based on experience - in your case 40 years) is great, but do you every get to a point where you say to yourself..."Hmmm, I need to verify that." If so, then how do you perform the verification? What resource do you use?

I have been actively at this for more than 40 years (more like 57). It has been 49 years since my first all Studebaker meet.
As I said, it is up to the owner to justify/document items in question. Also, if I am not pretty sure, I do not deduct for the item. This is while judging at a meet. Sometimes, I do look things up when I have the time/place to do that.

SergioG
03-05-2017, 10:26 PM
Originally, they came with overspray on the engine, firewall, runs on the door jams, brush painted touch up spots in the trunk, misaligned panel seams, crooked stainless strips, etc..

Hi Joe....REALLY? Wow, I didn't know that the Quality Control was that bad. - I do agree to a great degree that the Studebaker employees were not aficionados, but rather workers doing a job for a paycheck. I also agree that a restoration in 1980 may differ greatly to one of modern day.

Very interesting insight - thank you. (Your post might explain why I've found variations of certain details, which I expected to be standardized.

JoeHall
03-05-2017, 10:50 PM
Who ever restored my 1950 Champion 23 years ago put a lot of money into it buying NOS parts, etc., so I can only assume they got the decals correct. All these decals were in place except the oil bath air cleaner had none when I bought the car. When I was at SI a couple years ago I didn't recall what my neighbor's air cleaner decal looked like, so I bought one of each style. I finally got around to installing it a couple months ago, and used my neighbor's original unrestored 1950 Champion for the correct decal and placement.

The copper line by the blower motor is so I can monitor the fuel pump pressure as I experiment with various ohm resistors to find the best one to keep my 12 volt Holley pump at about 2 1/2 lbs. The oil fill cap should be engine green, and I will repaint it once I find a good match for the green paint.

62562 62563 62564 62565
Is that a brake fluid reservoir I see in pic #2? An excellent mod for convenience, and safety since it takes a major leak to empty the reservoir. I have one on the 63GT, and only wish there were one on the 62GT and 56J. :)

Dwain G.
03-05-2017, 11:00 PM
Sergio, I believe that was slightly exaggerated, but truly, no one built a perfect car back then. And there are definitely some minor differences in cars assembled in three different North American plants, let alone those in Europe, Australia, etc.
On the subject of runs, the first time I took my Scamp to a Slant Six Club meet I was asked if the paint was original. I said I thought it was. I was then asked if I had noticed two or three runs at the right lower edge of the trunk lid. I had, and was told, YEP! That's original!

TWChamp
03-06-2017, 12:31 AM
Is that a brake fluid reservoir I see in pic #2? An excellent mod for convenience, and safety since it takes a major leak to empty the reservoir. I have one on the 63GT, and only wish there were one on the 62GT and 56J. :)

Yes, that was added by the guy that restored the car 23 years ago. I wouldn't have added it, but will leave it since it's already in place. There was one at the South Bend swap meet last year, and the price was so low I was temped to buy it, but I told another guy about it and he bought it.

Blue 15G
03-06-2017, 08:22 AM
Sergio, another source that can sometimes be helpful for the information you are seeking are the articles in Turning Wheels magazine where they spotlight a particular year and model of Studebaker. Especially the articles written by Fred Fox. Sorry that I don't know if or when they had an article on the 48s (it is a '48 you are researching, right?) but someone with the TW index could tell you what edition that article would be in. Fred Fox would often list some of the authenticity details for underhood items, etc.

JoeHall
03-06-2017, 08:33 AM
We have a member of 56J Only who had access to engineer drawings of every component of 56J. There's a specification for everything, per the engineers, however not everything was made within spec. Some were so far off they were rejected, and likely tossed into a scrap metal bin, only to turn up for sale decades later as NOS. A good example is the, "check 'V'" on the forward ends of the 56J fins. I have seen NOS ones, with the backside slot for the chrome strip so far off point, it would be impossible to align the connecting stainless strips without, "doctoring" something.

RadioRoy
03-06-2017, 11:49 AM
I have had several 50 Champions, 50 Commanders and 51 Champions. The only one I have not had was a 51 Commander. These cars came to me in the 70's and early 80's when originals could still be found, plus I looked at many more cars than I actually bought.
Generally the exact position of the decal is not a big deal for me. Under the hood is more about colors, glosses, and finishes, types of wiring and such. Take the hood latch, for instance. It should be cad plated. Some folks paint them silver and some folks paint them black to match the air deflector. The firewall is always body color; never black from the ridge down. And the inner fenders were black with body color runs running down over the black.

I have to clarify this about the inner fender apron. It is not to be painted black during a restoration. That was not exactly what I said. The inner fender apron started out black before the fender was painted, but then was almost completely covered with body color overspray and runs. You can only tell that it was originally black by looking at the very bottom edges. You are much better off painting the inner fender body color, unless you want to restore a car with overspray and runs.

The firewall is always completely body color, as it was painted when the body was painted.

RadioRoy
03-06-2017, 11:52 AM
We have a member of 56J Only who had access to engineer drawings of every component of 56J. There's a specification for everything, per the engineers, however not everything was made within spec. Some were so far off they were rejected, and likely tossed into a scrap metal bin, only to turn up for sale decades later as NOS. A good example is the, "check 'V'" on the forward ends of the 56J fins. I have seen NOS ones, with the backside slot for the chrome strip so far off point, it would be impossible to align the connecting stainless strips without, "doctoring" something.

I have often opined that much of the NOS chrome we find was actually rejected at incoming inspection back in the day and then languished somewhere in a warehouse before surfacing for sale to restorers.

alex54
03-07-2017, 02:59 PM
I don't have the advantage of remembering how these cars were built (I was not even born when the last Stude rolled of the line), I can't make it to any shows that have "correctly" restored examples (good luck in even finding a ratty Studebaker of any sort at our local shows), and I don't know of anyone within 1000 to even ask. All I have is the internet, and we all know how reliable that is.

My 54 sedan is the most original example of a classic that I have ever owned. It has as far as I can tell, almost all of the original parts. Up to this point, I've been a hot rodder at heart, so originality never bothered me. A correct restoration is a new challenge that I want to take. The problems are in the small details. For example, my gauge cluster is held in by different screws (flat and philips) of different sizes. I never thought such little things would bother me, but it does. Other things such as the original finish of the carburetor and linkages (plated or natural).

At least I can use the C/K as a guide (I assume) for my non-loved sedan, if I can find such a guide.

studegary
03-07-2017, 09:04 PM
I don't have the advantage of remembering how these cars were built (I was not even born when the last Stude rolled of the line), I can't make it to any shows that have "correctly" restored examples (good luck in even finding a ratty Studebaker of any sort at our local shows), and I don't know of anyone within 1000 to even ask. All I have is the internet, and we all know how reliable that is.

My 54 sedan is the most original example of a classic that I have ever owned. It has as far as I can tell, almost all of the original parts. Up to this point, I've been a hot rodder at heart, so originality never bothered me. A correct restoration is a new challenge that I want to take. The problems are in the small details. For example, my gauge cluster is held in by different screws (flat and philips) of different sizes. I never thought such little things would bother me, but it does. Other things such as the original finish of the carburetor and linkages (plated or natural).

At least I can use the C/K as a guide (I assume) for my non-loved sedan, if I can find such a guide.

For 1953-1954 (all models), John Bridges' book; "Studebaker's Finest" is very good. Also, Fred K. Fox Feature Articles in "Turning Wheels" are good.

SergioG
03-10-2017, 12:45 AM
My 54 sedan is the most original example of a classic that I have ever owned. It has as far as I can tell, almost all of the original parts. Up to this point, I've been a hot rodder at heart, so originality never bothered me. A correct restoration is a new challenge that I want to take. The problems are in the small details. For example, my gauge cluster is held in by different screws (flat and philips) of different sizes. I never thought such little things would bother me, but it does. Other things such as the original finish of the carburetor and linkages (plated or natural).


Hi Alex, you hit on a nerve...what you're experiencing is exactly why I wish there was a reference book to at least assess. I wish I had the experience that some here have, who lived back in the day...I too was too young to remember the cars of yester-year. The Mopar reference books I mentioned in my original post are great for the muscle cars, but my Champion is far from a 1966 Dodge Coronet with a 426 Hemi...