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FourbyFounder
02-15-2017, 03:35 PM
My first post is to ask a question. I am a writer working on a story for Diesel World Magazine on the Cerlist diesel. It's the second in a new monthly column I am starting there on old diesel engines called "Vintage Smoke."

In researching the Cerlist, I found information that at least one Studebaker Zip Van was repowered with a Cerlist Model 3 diesel (3-cylinder, 170 ci, 85 hp, 170 lbs-ft). Cerlist built 2-stroke, loop scavenged diesels in 2, 3, V4 and V6 configurations (54-150 hp) and had a V8 prototyped. They were revvers and peak power was at 3000 rpm. A very innovative engine, it was used in the Jeep M-Series Forward Control built for the USMC in '63. They were multi-fuel and ran on #1 or #2 diesel, JP-4 or gasoline with no adjustments. The engine was designed by Hans List, an Austrian, and his company, AVL, licensed the engine all over the world, including to Cerlist (the name being a combination of Cerf, the top guy at Cerlist, and List). Cerlist went into business in 1956 and sold out to Waukesha in 1963, but Cerf stayed on as Sales Manager. Cerlist engines were built until 1973.

Anyway, in researching online, I came across this forum and some comments about the Zip Van diesel and that a guy named Asa Hall had owned it to about 2005 until it was sold. Can anyone hook me up with someone who might be able to tell more about that particular van, history and background and perhaps hook me up with the current owner? I have a vintage pic of it and want to pack as much info as I can into the caption. I was interested to learn that the Zip Van may be the last vehicle produced in the U.S. with a Studebaker nameplate.

Many thanks,

Jim Allen

Mark L
02-15-2017, 04:20 PM
Jim,

While you're waiting for someone to answer your specific questions in your third paragraph, you might consider contacting Andrew Beckman, archivist at the Studebaker National Museum to see of there's any information he can provide.

StudeRich
02-15-2017, 04:49 PM
Being that Studebaker had a fairly long relationship with using Detroit Diesel 3 and 4 Cyl. Diesel Engines in their Med. and Heavy Duty Trucks, it would seem unlikely that the Factory would undertake a Prototype program to test Cerlist Engines in their Zip Vans.

This could have been an individual.

8E45E
02-15-2017, 04:53 PM
Some photos in Post #18 here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?57376-original-Lark-Diesel

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-15-2017, 08:13 PM
Some photos in Post #18 here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?57376-original-Lark-Diesel

Craig

Unfortunately, those pics lost their link.

I have an image of a new Zip Van with Peter Cerf and a prominently displayed "Cerlist Diesel" badge on it. It came from an archive of material from the Waukesha Engine Historical Society. Waukesha bought Cerlist in the Summer of '63,about the time this was all happening, so at the time the pic was taken, which had to have been in late '63 or early '64 (the image is not dated), Cerf was either the the Executive V.P. At Cerlist Diesel, Inc., or the Sales Manager of the Cerlist Engine Division of Waukesha (the job he took when Cerlist was purchased). At the time, they were pushing to get Cerlists in anything they could. Cerf was either working a deal with the U.S. Government, and the USPS gave him a Zip Van to convert, or he was working with Studebaker. It's not clear from the remaining records which, hence the reason I am reaching out to Studebaker people in the know. If the surviving van has some data plates or documentation with it, we might be able to date it better.

8E45E
02-15-2017, 09:03 PM
I have an image of a new Zip Van with Peter Cerf and a prominently displayed "Cerlist Diesel" badge on it.

If so, it should also have external radiator shutters that protrude about an inch in front of the grille opening. It was made by Cadillac; totally unrelated to the GM product.

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-16-2017, 05:03 AM
If so, it should also have external radiator shutters that protrude about an inch in front of the grille opening. It was made by Cadillac; totally unrelated to the GM product.

Craig

What does GM and Cadillac have to do with Cerlist?

8E45E
02-16-2017, 06:41 AM
What does GM and Cadillac have to do with Cerlist?

None, as I stated.

'Cadillac' is the brand name of the thermostatic radiator shutters this particular Zip Van with the Cerlist diesel installation used. It was not used on any with the 170 c.i.d Studebaker engines, which makes it easily identifiable.

Think of 'Kysor' radiator shutters. It has nothing to do with Detroit Diesel, but many trucks equipped with Detroit diesel engines are equipped with them.

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-16-2017, 07:02 AM
None, as I stated.

'Cadillac' is the brand name of the thermostatic radiator shutters this particular Zip Van with the Cerlist diesel installation used. It was not used on any with the 170 c.i.d Studebaker engines, which makes it easily identifiable.

Think of 'Kysor' radiator shutters. It has nothing to do with Detroit Diesel, but many trucks equipped with Detroit diesel engines are equipped with them.

Craig

Ahh! Yes, it is only partly visible but it has louvers. I'd post the pic now but I am constrained until after the story is out. At that point, I can post the pic. It shows a Zip Van in full USPS regalia, so my initial theory has been that the conversion was instigated by the USPS and not Studebaker. But I'd like to know for sure. Cerlist had many government connections and besides the Jeep M-Series FC trucks, Jeep M-38A1s had been converted and the engine was under consideration for an experimental tactical rig being proposed in the prototype/bidding process that led to the Gamma-Goat. I know that a Cerlist was also tried in a Checker cab. There were other test conversions I have not verified yet and am trying to track down.

What other clues can you give me about the Cerlist Zip Van. Was a lot of talk about it here a few years back and that it was sold. Would really like to track down the current owner to see about data plates, engine numbers, etc, because that could help me date the conversion (Cerlist Inc or Waukesha). Maybe there was some paperwork or documentation that came with the vehicle.

8E45E
02-16-2017, 07:14 AM
I know that a Cerlist was also tried in a Checker cab.

Checker did use Detroit 3-53 diesels in a few cabs, but they may have experimented with some Cerlists.

If you are near the NATMUS Museum in Auburn, the Checker to the right in my photo is equipped with a diesel, but I didn't look under the hood to see who's engine it had: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?64335-Orphan-of-the-Day-08-15-1969-Checker-Aerobus

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-16-2017, 07:28 AM
Checker did use Detroit 3-53 diesels in a few cabs, but they may have experimented with some Cerlists.

If you are near the NATMUS Museum in Auburn, the Checker to the right in my photo is equipped with a diesel, but I didn't look under the hood to see who's engine it had: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?64335-Orphan-of-the-Day-08-15-1969-Checker-Aerobus

Craig

Documentation exists about the Checker conversion (see SAE white paper 590141, dated April 23, 1959 by Peter Cerf).

I am not far from NATMUS and will be up that way in May to deliver a talk at ACD. Have done several shoots there, including that Studebaker 4x4 (see http://www.fourwheeler.com/features/1504-1958-studebaker-transtar-3e6d-4x4-backward-glances/ ). I remember that Checker but, like you, didn't look under the hood. I was in good with the Curator, so he would have let me. Since it was from 1969, I doubt it would be a Cerlist but I think the information placard mentioned it was a GM engine.

8E45E
02-16-2017, 08:12 AM
It shows a Zip Van in full USPS regalia, so my initial theory has been that the conversion was instigated by the USPS and not Studebaker. But I'd like to know for sure.

I have no doubt in my mind the use of a Cerlist engine was instigated by the USPS, and not Studebaker. Studebaker was already in bed with Detroit, using the 53-series diesels in their 1-1/2 and 2 ton trucks, and as previously mentioned, a handful of Larks with Perkins engines. And they were experimenting with a Cummins diesel as well: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?54719-The-Lamberti-papers-20

Therefore, adding a fourth diesel engine manufacturer on the own would not have made any sense. If I remember right, Off-Highway Products also produced a similar sized vehicle for the USPS once the Studebaker contract was finished, and they may picked up on using Cerlist diesel in their units.

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-16-2017, 08:43 AM
I have no doubt in my mind the use of a Cerlist engine was instigated by the USPS, and not Studebaker. Studebaker was already in bed with Detroit, using the 53-series diesels in their 1-1/2 and 2 ton trucks, and as previously mentioned, a handful of Larks with Perkins engines. And they were experimenting with a Cummins diesel as well: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?54719-The-Lamberti-papers-20

Therefore, adding a fourth diesel engine manufacturer on the own would not have made any sense. If I remember right, Off-Highway Products also produced a similar sized vehicle for the USPS once the Studebaker contract was finished, and they may picked up on using Cerlist diesel in their units.

Craig

Well that's my working theory too but, unlike you posting on a forum, I cannot profess a theory too strongly in a mainstream publication without backup documentation, something that can lead people to incorrect conclusions. If I don't find out for sure, I have to be wishy-washy about it and I hate that.

The timing is what give me the most pause in considering it was instigated by Studebaker and that's why I am trolling for dates. Auto manufacturers are never too locked in to one supplier... especially when someone comes along with something better (for the same money) or cheaper (with comparable performance). So it's not completely out of bounds with reality that Studebaker would consider Cerlist and do some testing in spite of any relationships with GM.

That said, Studebaker was on the ropes by the time the Zip Van was coming out and it's not likely there was a lot of forward thinking going on at the time, so experimenting with new engines would not have been high on the priority list. From what I have read, the Zip Van was a pretty fast development and used mostly existing Studebaker mechanical parts... a very cost effective approach for a company in financial distress... and I can't imagine Cerlist being able to jump into that effectively with a proposal that entailed Studebaker writing checks to an outside vendor rather than to it's workers or raw materials suppliers.

studegary
02-16-2017, 02:04 PM
I believe that the two best sources of information on the diesel Zip Van, that I haven't seen in several years, is;
1) the person that bought it from the Asa Hall estate - I was at the auction, but I can't remember who that was, or
2) Andy Beckman, the Archivist at the Studebaker National Museum.

Ron Dame
02-16-2017, 05:27 PM
For the diesel illiterate, what advantages/disadvantages were there to the Cerlist over a Detroit or a Perkins, or a.. whatever?

FourbyFounder
02-16-2017, 06:48 PM
Well, the Cerlist is a loop-scavenged, indirect-injected two-stroke. The Detroit is Unifolw, direct-injected two-stroke and the Perkins is an indirect-injected four-stroke. There ya go? ( : < )

Didn't help much, did it? Ok. I'll assume you know the difference between a 4-stroke and a 2-stroke. The two-stroke system, having only two stroke cycles, adds a little efficiency and power at the cost of fuel economy

Cerlist: The Cerlist was based on a Hans List design that appeared in 1948. Through his Austrian company, AVL, List licensed them all over the world into the 1980s. Loop-scavenging uses ports in the lower cylinder for intake and exhaust in place of a camshaft and valves. The piston covers and uncovers the ports in its stroke. The engine driven Roots blower is supplying constant airflow. After the cylinder fires, the exhaust port (higher in the cylinder) is uncovered first and much of the combustion pressure exits. Next the intake ports are uncovered and the inlet flow from the blower both pushes out the remaining exhaust and fills the cylinder with fresh air. The piston rises, covering the ports and compressing the air (22:1 CR in the case of the Cerlist). The injection system pops, the cylinder fires and the cycle begins again. The size, shape and location of the ports is what required the majority of the science, as those things represent the job a camshaft and valves do. The biggest problem with loop scavenged diesels was oil consumption control and that’s one reason why the Cerlist pistons had six sets of rings, four compression (keystone type on top) and two oil control. The oil control rings were at the bottom of the piston and stayed just below the ports. Advantages are that the engine has a very flexible RPM and torque range, revs high (3000 rpm for the Cerlist) and because the camshaft and valves are the major source of internal engine frictional loss, eliminating them adds to the power output. The 3-cylinder Cerlist was 170 ci, and was modestly calibrated for 85 hp @ 3000 and 170 lbs-ft. with a torque line that was virtally flat from 1000 to 3000 rpm. That's a little less power than the Stude 170 six but a fair bit more torque. The Cerlist was rated for a continuous 2600 rpm and it was a multi fuel, meaning that it could run on diesel, JP-4 jet fuel or gasoline with no special tuning (it had a hardened injection pump to run on low lubricity fuel) and power output on gas was just 4% off #2 diesel. The Cerlist weighed 605 pounds, which is probably a bit more than the 170 gasser but more than 400 pounds lighter than the 3-53

Detroit: A Uniflow 2-stroke. Uniflow was perfected by Alexander Winton in the early '20s and when GM Bought Winton out in 1930, they inherited the technology and then tweaked it. The 3-53 debuted in 1958 and is a two-stroke that inhales via ports in the lower cylinder and air is pumped via an engine driven Roots blower. It exhausted via conventional valves operated by a camshaft. The camshaft also operated unit injectors, so that instead of having a separate injection pump and injectors, it had a common rail fuel feed system and an injector that increased the pressure from the main rail. Again, the Uniflow system offered a higher rpm band than most diesels of the day and a lot of power in a small package (relative to other diesels). The beloved 3-53 had several different power outputs and I don't know which was commonly used in Studebakers. The lower revving variety found in tractors and stationary applications made about 89 hp but the more common type made 97 hp @ 2800 and 200 lbs-ft (there were minor tuning differences over the years... I pulled those numbers from a '62 3-53 manual I have). GM also built a loop-scavanged diesel from '51-59, the 51 Series which predated but was very similar to the 53 Series but without the valves. The 3-53 was a heavy bugger...1020 lbs, bare and considerably larger in all dimensions than the Cerlist. According to BSFC charts, the 3-53 was slightly more fuel efficient than the Cerlist.

Perkins and other similar 4-strokes: They work pretty much like a gasser with four stroke cycles, intake and exhaust valves. Their torque range is at a much lower rpm than either of the 2-strokes and their power output is lower but they have the advantage in fuel economy. Most of the Perkins in this era were indirect injected, meaning the injector sprayed into a smaller combustion chamber first and that's where combustion started and spread to the main chamber. This somewhat limited power output but made for a quieter engine, an economical one and one that started well in cold weather if a glow system was used. I don't know which Perkins was used in the Lark diesel cars. I probably have the info if I knew which engine.

That's very much a nutshell. Emissions standards is what killed the two-strokes and many of the indirect injected four-strokes, but since we all live in the past... who cares!

FourbyFounder
02-16-2017, 06:53 PM
I believe that the two best sources of information on the diesel Zip Van, that I haven't seen in several years, is;
1) the person that bought it from the Asa Hall estate - I was at the auction, but I can't remember who that was, or
2) Andy Beckman, the Archivist at the Studebaker National Museum.

Andy Beckman contacted; no informational joy as yet.

Guido
02-16-2017, 09:14 PM
Jim,

I responded to your e-mail, I have looked for pictures and have not been able to find them. I do not recall the name of the person who bought the Zip Van, but something tells me it may be the person who bought Asa's Big Horn. As I recall, it was a father and son team from northern PA. Either Asa's widow Sharon or John Ernst may know.

Gary Hearn

FourbyFounder
02-17-2017, 06:15 AM
Jim,

I responded to your e-mail, I have looked for pictures and have not been able to find them. I do not recall the name of the person who bought the Zip Van, but something tells me it may be the person who bought Asa's Big Horn. As I recall, it was a father and son team from northern PA. Either Asa's widow Sharon or John Ernst may know.

Gary Hearn

Thanks Gary!

64V-K7
02-17-2017, 06:24 AM
Some photos in Post #18 here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?57376-original-Lark-Diesel

Craig

Here's Torrey Kirbys car...

http://www.studebaker-info.org/Archive/Cars/1963/63larkdiesel1/63larkdiesel1.html

8E45E
02-17-2017, 06:36 AM
That's very much a nutshell. Emissions standards is what killed the two-strokes and many of the indirect injected four-strokes, but since we all live in the past... who cares!

Do you have ANY record at all of any North American manufacturer installing an air-cooled Deutz diesel in one or more of their truck(s)?

Craig

8E45E
02-17-2017, 06:39 AM
I believe that the two best sources of information on the diesel Zip Van, that I haven't seen in several years, is;
1) the person that bought it from the Asa Hall estate - I was at the auction, but I can't remember who that was, or
2) Andy Beckman, the Archivist at the Studebaker National Museum.

Richard Quinn might be another excellent resource.

Craig

8E45E
02-17-2017, 06:47 AM
Here's Torrey Kirbys car...

http://www.studebaker-info.org/Archive/Cars/1963/63larkdiesel1/63larkdiesel1.html

Thanks for those additional photos of the late Torrey Kirby's car.

It should be noted Torrey passed away in 2012: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?62034-Torrey-Kirby-Rest-in-Peace , and his daughter may still own it: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?92410-Got-to-see-this-63-Lark-diesel-coupe-today

Craig

Ron Dame
02-17-2017, 07:16 AM
Thanks, that helps a lot. It sounds sort of like a blown Lawn Boy diesel.


Well, the Cerlist is a loop-scavenged, indirect-injected two-stroke. The Detroit is Unifolw, direct-injected two-stroke and the Perkins is an indirect-injected four-stroke. There ya go? ( : < )

Didn't help much, did it? Ok. I'll assume you know the difference between a 4-stroke and a 2-stroke. The two-stroke system, having only two stroke cycles, adds a little efficiency and power at the cost of fuel economy

Cerlist: The Cerlist was based on a Hans List design that appeared in 1948. Through his Austrian company, AVL, List licensed them all over the world into the 1980s. Loop-scavenging uses ports in the lower cylinder for intake and exhaust in place of a camshaft and valves. The piston covers and uncovers the ports in its stroke. The engine driven Roots blower is supplying constant airflow. After the cylinder fires, the exhaust port (higher in the cylinder) is uncovered first and much of the combustion pressure exits. Next the intake ports are uncovered and the inlet flow from the blower both pushes out the remaining exhaust and fills the cylinder with fresh air. The piston rises, covering the ports and compressing the air (22:1 CR in the case of the Cerlist). The injection system pops, the cylinder fires and the cycle begins again. The size, shape and location of the ports is what required the majority of the science, as those things represent the job a camshaft and valves do. The biggest problem with loop scavenged diesels was oil consumption control and that’s one reason why the Cerlist pistons had six sets of rings, four compression (keystone type on top) and two oil control. The oil control rings were at the bottom of the piston and stayed just below the ports. Advantages are that the engine has a very flexible RPM and torque range, revs high (3000 rpm for the Cerlist) and because the camshaft and valves are the major source of internal engine frictional loss, eliminating them adds to the power output. The 3-cylinder Cerlist was 170 ci, and was modestly calibrated for 85 hp @ 3000 and 170 lbs-ft. with a torque line that was virtally flat from 1000 to 3000 rpm. That's a little less power than the Stude 170 six but a fair bit more torque. The Cerlist was rated for a continuous 2600 rpm and it was a multi fuel, meaning that it could run on diesel, JP-4 jet fuel or gasoline with no special tuning (it had a hardened injection pump to run on low lubricity fuel) and power output on gas was just 4% off #2 diesel. The Cerlist weighed 605 pounds, which is probably a bit more than the 170 gasser but more than 400 pounds lighter than the 3-53

Detroit: A Uniflow 2-stroke. Uniflow was perfected by Alexander Winton in the early '20s and when GM Bought Winton out in 1930, they inherited the technology and then tweaked it. The 3-53 debuted in 1958 and is a two-stroke that inhales via ports in the lower cylinder and air is pumped via an engine driven Roots blower. It exhausted via conventional valves operated by a camshaft. The camshaft also operated unit injectors, so that instead of having a separate injection pump and injectors, it had a common rail fuel feed system and an injector that increased the pressure from the main rail. Again, the Uniflow system offered a higher rpm band than most diesels of the day and a lot of power in a small package (relative to other diesels). The beloved 3-53 had several different power outputs and I don't know which was commonly used in Studebakers. The lower revving variety found in tractors and stationary applications made about 89 hp but the more common type made 97 hp @ 2800 and 200 lbs-ft (there were minor tuning differences over the years... I pulled those numbers from a '62 3-53 manual I have). GM also built a loop-scavanged diesel from '51-59, the 51 Series which predated but was very similar to the 53 Series but without the valves. The 3-53 was a heavy bugger...1020 lbs, bare and considerably larger in all dimensions than the Cerlist. According to BSFC charts, the 3-53 was slightly more fuel efficient than the Cerlist.

Perkins and other similar 4-strokes: They work pretty much like a gasser with four stroke cycles, intake and exhaust valves. Their torque range is at a much lower rpm than either of the 2-strokes and their power output is lower but they have the advantage in fuel economy. Most of the Perkins in this era were indirect injected, meaning the injector sprayed into a smaller combustion chamber first and that's where combustion started and spread to the main chamber. This somewhat limited power output but made for a quieter engine, an economical one and one that started well in cold weather if a glow system was used. I don't know which Perkins was used in the Lark diesel cars. I probably have the info if I knew which engine.

That's very much a nutshell. Emissions standards is what killed the two-strokes and many of the indirect injected four-strokes, but since we all live in the past... who cares!

FourbyFounder
02-17-2017, 07:36 AM
Do you have ANY record at all of any North American manufacturer installing an air-cooled Deutz diesel in one or more of their truck(s)?

Craig

Yes. In the late '50s and early '60s, FWD installed V8 Deutz diesels in a small number of trucks and one V-12. They were not well liked, though from the performance standpoint that was more to do with drivers preferences than their being anything particularly wrong. I guess they didn't have that low end grunt drivers of the era were used to. The biggest complaint was cab heat. If you drove a Deutz-powered truck in cold weather you froze your nuts off. FWD installed diesel-fired heaters but they were cranky. I know the guy that owns the V12 and when he bought it, it had been sitting 20 years in the back of a Denver truck company's lot with only 35K miles on it because their drivers refused to drive it. There was one other company that tried the Deutz for a short while but I cannot remember which. Lots of tractors used them here.

I helped convert a late '60s Suburban to a Deutz 5-cylinder inline. The owner liked it... but he lived in the desert, so.....

FourbyFounder
02-17-2017, 07:40 AM
Here's Torrey Kirbys car...

http://www.studebaker-info.org/Archive/Cars/1963/63larkdiesel1/63larkdiesel1.html

It could be any of about four different units built by Perkins in that era and I'm not familiar enough to tell them apart visually. If someone can tell me the Perkins Model number , e.g. 4.192, I can give chapter and verse on the particular engine.

If I had to guess, I would say it's a 4.192, which produced 65 hp @ 3000 and 134 lbs-ft at 1350 rpm from 192 cubic inches. It was used in Jeeps from '61-69. There were a couple of other displacements in that engine family that look similar, but that one is a dead ringer for a Jeep 4.192.

FourbyFounder
02-17-2017, 08:09 AM
Thanks, that helps a lot. It sounds sort of like a blown Lawn Boy diesel.

If yo've ever heard a Cerlist run, you will remember the sound. Jimmys too, but they sound different.

8E45E
02-17-2017, 08:09 AM
Yes. In the late '50s and early '60s, FWD installed V8 Deutz diesels in a small number of trucks and one V-12. They were not well liked, though from the performance standpoint that was more to do with drivers preferences than their being anything particularly wrong. I guess they didn't have that low end grunt drivers of the era were used to. The biggest complaint was cab heat. If you drove a Deutz-powered truck in cold weather you froze your nuts off. FWD installed diesel-fired heaters but they were cranky. I know the guy that owns the V12 and when he bought it, it had been sitting 20 years in the back of a Denver truck company's lot with only 35K miles on it because their drivers refused to drive it. There was one other company that tried the Deutz for a short while but I cannot remember which. Lots of tractors used them here.

I helped convert a late '60s Suburban to a Deutz 5-cylinder inline. The owner liked it... but he lived in the desert, so.....

Thanks for the information. I was aware of them in lots of tractors, but not so much for road vehicles.

Not sure if its true or not, but at one time, Paccar reportedly experimented with one installed in a Peterbilt sometime in the 1970's, but went nowhere with it.

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-17-2017, 08:18 AM
62175 Here is a Cerlist Model 3 from the Waukesha era ('63-73) and is more or less the same engine that would have been in the Zip Van. The engine in my avatar is a V4 Cerlist.

Latest Update: Beckman at the Museum has nothing unless I get him a serial number but he gave me another name.

Guido
02-17-2017, 10:36 AM
Let me see if I backed up my old computer, one of the pictures I had was of the engine with the cover off.

Art Smith
02-17-2017, 12:45 PM
Art Smith here. Northern Cal. I am restoring a Zip, stock. I inquired earlier about the diesel Zip. I have Sharon Hall`s phone number if you wish. I have not called her but you might try. Hope she might be able to help you. 860-567-9047. It would be a nice follow-up article.

Guido
02-17-2017, 01:17 PM
The auctioneer was Phil Jacquier up in Southwick, MA. I doubt they would have records dating back almost a dozen years, but who knows. At one time I had notes on what all the cars and trucks brought, but think all that got trashed when I moved to KY 6 years ago.

studegary
02-17-2017, 01:19 PM
Jim,

I responded to your e-mail, I have looked for pictures and have not been able to find them. I do not recall the name of the person who bought the Zip Van, but something tells me it may be the person who bought Asa's Big Horn. As I recall, it was a father and son team from northern PA. Either Asa's widow Sharon or John Ernst may know.

Gary Hearn

The Dodge Big Horn was purchased by a father and son that owned a Dodge dealership in Pennsylvania. One got in the Big Horn and drove it home, followed by the other in the vehicle that they came to the auction in. I do not remember them buying anything else. I thought that the diesel Zip Van went to the Southeast or maybe Texas.

Guido
02-17-2017, 07:34 PM
I have gone through my back up hard drive and my CD of pictures and can't find any of Asa's auction. However, I did find a couple of the engine compartment of Torrey Kirby's Lark.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o175/guidosalvage/Perkins%202_zpsovb8fjr9.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o175/guidosalvage/Perkins%201_zpsqzdis1qc.jpg

t walgamuth
02-17-2017, 10:00 PM
how much does that engine weigh?

FourbyFounder
02-18-2017, 06:38 AM
how much does that engine weigh?

The Cerlist in the Zip Van was 605 lbs. Assuming that is a Perkins 4.192 in the Lark, it was 730 lbs. Both are dry weights but complete engines with flywheels but no clutches. If it's not a 4.192, it's an engine in that family and the weight would be similar.

FourbyFounder
02-20-2017, 11:22 AM
Quick Update:

I have the VIN and it turns out Ron Hackenberg is the one who bought it. And Guess what? It going to be auctioned July 15, 2017 along with all of Ron's other stuff. I'm going over there in a couple of days to shoot the van and will probably do a feature story on it for Diesel World magazine. I spoke with Ron and he seems like a real Stude fan.He was a serious hoot to talk with and was driving home from NM in a '74 AMC Ambassador when I talked with him. Looks like a bunch of his collection is made up of Studebakers, so if you hadn't heard about the auction, it's in Norwalk, OH, July 15, 2017. http://www.vanderbrinkauctions.com

8E45E
02-20-2017, 11:31 AM
I'm going over there in a couple of days to shoot the van and will probably do a feature story on it for Diesel World magazine.

I'll be looking forward to it! Don't make the article too short!!!

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-21-2017, 02:01 PM
Got the build sheet from the Museum in my quest for clarity on the Cerlist Zip Van based on the serial number Sharon Hall gave me. No unusual notations and an anomaly. The Post Office Serial Number does not match the one on the image I have from Cerlist. Several possibilities for that but since I will be seeing the Zip Van in question Friday, I will be able to resolve it one way or another by confirming the serial number of the Van and the engine.

As I recall, the serial number plate on the Zip Van is on the front panel above the engine doghouse? I remember seeing a picture of one but can't find it now.

Warren Webb
02-21-2017, 03:06 PM
The serial number is on the vertical panel just off to the left/ in front of the drivers seat.

FourbyFounder
02-25-2017, 07:46 AM
OK, I got out to Ron Hackenberger's and saw the Cerlist Zip Van. It's the real deal. The serial number matches the build sheet I got. See the images below. It's not great but better than the other Zip Van I saw (he has a third but I didn't see it). It's a nice installation and by the engine number and build date the conversion postdates the build by a considerable margin. This leasts me to a strong theory that the conversion WAS NOT instigated by Studebaker, but either by the Post Office or by Cerlist. Given how hard Cerlist was trying to sell engines, they probably proposed it and submitted it for evaluation by PO authorities. I have some other conclusions but I am going to hold back some thunder for the article.

I was not able to come to a conclusion on why PO number painted on the van in the period image I have is different than the one list on the build sheet. The numbers are still there, though obscured by white paint that was slathered over them, likely at the sale by the Post Office. You can make some of the digits out but I would have had to sand to see more... but you don't do that on someone else's vehicle. It has the Cadillac louvered grille noted by a poster above and the relocated heater. It's very much in PO trim, still with some PO paperwork inside (no lost letters!). Has three of the original hubcaps. Body is decent but the sliding door is very rusted.

It's showing 58,000 + miles and will be for sale at the auction on July 15, 2017

I also got to see about 500 of the 750 vehicles that will be auctioned. You Studebaker guys need to be there! He has some utterly awesome stuff (Stude and not). My knowledge of Studebakers is not extensive enough to tell you too much, but I will post some images in a new post. The auctioneer will be photographing each vehicle in the coming months as they are taken out of storage but I prowled freely though several building full of cars and trucks, plus two outside yards. I was so gobsmaked by the depth and breadth collection that I couldn't sleep last night.

Some of the stuff is online now at:

http://www.vanderbrinkauctions.com

62365623666236762368

Milaca
02-25-2017, 10:04 AM
Jim Allen, will you be at the auction bidding on this Studebaker? It might be very handy for you, just think of the possibilities!

FourbyFounder
02-25-2017, 10:22 AM
Oh, I am tempted but at this time in my life, I need another project like another bodily orifice. I'm satisfied with the 50 or so pics I took.

8E45E
02-25-2017, 06:20 PM
Thanks for posting these latest photos of it.

I did wonder what became of it.

Craig

Warren Webb
02-26-2017, 02:07 AM
Jim, what was the final assembly date on the production order? I'm curious because I see it has the small l/r quarter window. I have been told that the later ones (like mine) have the larger quarter window. Thanks for the great photos too!

FourbyFounder
02-26-2017, 10:05 AM
Jim, what was the final assembly date on the production order? I'm curious because I see it has the small l/r quarter window. I have been told that the later ones (like mine) have the larger quarter window. Thanks for the great photos too!

Build date was 1/9/64, the sequential number was FC1711

Does anyone know the last production date of the Zip Van? I gather they were the last Studebakers built in the U.S.

8E45E
02-26-2017, 10:08 AM
Build date was 1/9/64, the sequential number was FC1711

Does anyone know the last production date of the Zip Van? I gather they were the last Studebakers built in the U.S.

I believe it was April 30th, 1964, from what I read.

Craig

FourbyFounder
02-26-2017, 10:53 AM
I believe it was April 30th, 1964, from what I read.

Craig

Is there a publication or source where this is documented?

8E45E
02-26-2017, 12:13 PM
Is there a publication or source where this is documented?

I highly recommend getting the July, 1996 Turning Wheels, which has an excellent article by George Hamlin who has thoroughly researched Zip Van production. That April 30th date is not mentioned in that specific article, but it does indicate all the running changes from just after start of production through April, 1964. It was in an earlier issue, possibly in a Fred Fox article, that date was mentioned.

Craig

FoMoCoPower
07-17-2017, 10:47 PM
I am the one that won the bid for this van on Saturday. I am pretty excited about getting it,however the auction company damaged the body loading it out for us....so now I have that to deal with unfortunately.

8E45E
07-17-2017, 10:51 PM
I am the one that won the bid for this van on Saturday. I am pretty excited about getting it,however the auction company damaged the body loading it out for us....so now I have that to deal with unfortunately.

Congratulations on your purchase of this unique Zip Van, and welcome to the Forum.

Not sure which part(s) of the body got damaged upon loading, but Studebaker International may have replacement parts available.

Their website here------> http://www.studebaker-intl.com/

Craig

FoMoCoPower
07-17-2017, 10:54 PM
The side panels/rockers on both sides from being lifted with a forklift!!!!

8E45E
07-17-2017, 11:01 PM
The side panels/rockers on both sides from being lifted with a forklift!!!!

Page 116 here: http://www.studebaker-intl.com/PDF/Sheet%20metal.pdf

Craig

FoMoCoPower
07-17-2017, 11:28 PM
Thanks,unfortunately those are not listed. They may be repairable,we`ll see

mbstude
07-18-2017, 05:51 AM
Thanks,unfortunately those are not listed. They may be repairable,we`ll see

They may not be listed in the catalog, but SI may have the parts. It'd be worth a call before ruling them out.

FourbyFounder
07-18-2017, 06:02 AM
Congratulations on winning that Zip Van. Sitting in the corner of a moldy old building with hundreds of other neglected and forgotten vehicles was a sad fate and I'm glad you saved it.

FoMoCoPower
07-18-2017, 06:26 AM
Congratulations on winning that Zip Van. Sitting in the corner of a moldy old building with hundreds of other neglected and forgotten vehicles was a sad fate and I'm glad you saved it.


Thanks,I have 5 other vintage step vans at the moment,and bought the 4th Zip they had at the sale also. I have "issues" myself,just not to the same extent as Mr.Hackenberger thankfully. I actually sell things when I realize I don`t have the time for them! Looks like I will have to sell a couple of the others now to justify these two. They will have their evolutionary replacement as a stablemate though,a 1965 Jeep FJ6.

FourbyFounder
07-18-2017, 06:29 AM
Let me introduce you to another"drug," the IH Metro-Mite... especially one with the original Austin A-55 engine. Muahahahaha!

8E45E
07-18-2017, 06:36 AM
Matt is correct.

SI has several parts not listed in their catalog when they only have one or two of that particular item on the shelf. As well, patience may be required as their staff will probably have to search for those items between two warehouses.

Craig

8E45E
07-18-2017, 06:49 AM
Let me introduce you to another"drug," the IH Metro-Mite... especially one with the original Austin A-55 engine. Muahahahaha!

Or this one: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?52519-Orphan-of-the-Day-07-02-1939-Diamond-T-Pack-Age-Car

Craig

FoMoCoPower
07-18-2017, 07:13 AM
Let me introduce you to another"drug," the IH Metro-Mite... especially one with the original Austin A-55 engine. Muahahahaha!


I know all about those,just haven`t bought one yet.

- - - Updated - - -


Or this one: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?52519-Orphan-of-the-Day-07-02-1939-Diamond-T-Pack-Age-Car

Craig


Stutz made one of those also.

studegary
07-18-2017, 09:34 AM
The side panels/rockers on both sides from being lifted with a forklift!!!!

I guess that the auction company workers weren't informed that the Zip Van was the only unit body Studebaker.

FourbyFounder
07-18-2017, 02:58 PM
So many of those rigs had sat so long that the brakes had frozen, the tires were flat and they were so jammed into those buildings that with 750 cars to move, they probably just didn't care any more. Looked like junk? Got treated like junk.

Deaf Mute
07-18-2017, 03:15 PM
We would also like to see the story in TURNING WHEELS after it is published in the other publication, of course. !

FourbyFounder
07-18-2017, 03:35 PM
Who is the contact at Turning Wheels? It's already out in the Diesel World September issue, page 168, probably still on stands now. The Studebaker part is one page in a five page story that was mainly about the engine. The Zip Van shares the "Applications" spotlight with the USMC M-Series Jeep FC170, which was actually produced in the hundreds. It may also be posted online on the Diesel World at some point.

Actually, I just remembered that I got permission to let club publications have copies of the story, as long as they credit Diesel World and link to the DW site.

If someone can connect me with the right person, I can see that it happens. Or, it could be posted on the website here.

DEEPNHOCK
07-18-2017, 03:48 PM
http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/turningwheels.asp


Who is the contact at Turning Wheels? It's already out in the Diesel World September issue, page 168, probably still on stands now. The Studebaker part is one page in a five page story that was mainly about the engine. The Zip Van shares the "Applications" spotlight with the USMC M-Series Jeep FC170, which was actually produced in the hundreds. It may also be posted online on the Diesel World at some point.

Actually, I just remembered that I got permission to let club publications have copies of the story, as long as they credit Diesel World and link to the DW site.

If someone can connect me with the right person, I can see that it happens. Or, it could be posted on the website here.

FourbyFounder
07-25-2017, 08:14 AM
I secured permission from the editor of Diesel World for Studebaker Drivers Club and/or TW to use the story, then contacted the TW Editor and we will see if she wants to use it.

Just want to say thanks again to the community here for the help and advice on Zip Vans. Learned a lot about them and Studebakers in general.