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Springstreet
12-31-2016, 07:48 AM
i know I'm beating a dead horse here ... but does anyone know of a manual window regulator that can be retro-fitted for the heavy glass/frame of an Avanti? And yes, I know I need to align the tracks and stops and "grease" the felts. And yes, I purchased an after market electric regulator which after many dollars ... worked for a while. But, my RetroRod needs manual windows. Anyone?

sweetolbob
12-31-2016, 08:41 AM
Other than the "usual suspects" I'd suggest looking at Ebay. There's always a large selection there. The physics haven't changed over the years just the methodology and mounting.

Take a look at Honda cars and Toyota trucks like these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/96-00-Honda-Civic-2-Door-Manual-Window-Regulator-Pair-Set-Both-/172438153670?hash=item28261d69c6:g:2NgAAOSwB09YSdGm&vxp=mtr

Also recall that others have made Mazda and other electric ones work so why not look at Manual ones.

The good news is the Avanti windows don't need a lot of lift distance and the price of new on Ebay would make experimenting fairly reasonable.

I have a set of manual in my 74 so I'd help with motion, mounting, pictures etc. if necessary.

Bob

SN-60
12-31-2016, 08:44 AM
Never tried it, but someone mentioned GT Hawk manual window regulators might be 'adaptable' to Avantis. :ohmy:

gordr
12-31-2016, 11:43 AM
Avantis were available with manual window regulators. I have one so equipped. And my intention is to replace them with some sort of Brand X power window lifts when I get to it. So the manual regulators will become available at some point. The manual regulators, due to their design, put a fierce pressure on the fiberglass inner door skin where they mount, and it often cracks or crumbles as a result. Don't like them. The newer class of power window lifts use a flex-track or captive cable to to move the glass, and the basicall just put weight on their mounting point, not torque, too.

sweetolbob
12-31-2016, 11:56 AM
Never tried it, but someone mentioned GT Hawk manual window regulators might be 'adaptable' to Avantis. :ohmy:

I don't know how the Hawk differ from the earlier K-body regulators, but if you want to try them, I'll donate a couple of K-series in excellent shape to get that experiment underway.

60924 60925

Bob

karterfred88
12-31-2016, 12:07 PM
Yes you and others have been down this road before. I myself have had no problems with the original power windows, other than rollers popping out. Knowing Studebaker's propensity to use stuff already designed and available, I'm sure a regulator made prior to the Avanti's invention, was pressed into service with little to no modifications. Perhaps something from the larger models. As to being heavy, the glass itself isn't, its the channel it sits in plus the glass. Any scissor style regulator depends on a counter balance spring to "help" lift the glass assembly. I know you have tried after market but maybe the only way to go, have you spoken to Bob regarding his units, http://avantiparts.biz/power-window-kit/ they may work better than the one you used-not overly cheap, but seem well built when I looked at them. Once I took mine apart, cleaned greased and bushed what was loose and put in new counter balance springs they worked and continue to work well-not the hardiest of designs, but then none of them are.

SN-60
12-31-2016, 04:38 PM
I don't know how the Hawk differ from the earlier K-body regulators, but if you want to try them, I'll donate a couple of K-series in excellent shape to get that experiment underway.

60924 60925

Bob

Looking at the clear pictures of L&R C/K window regulators that Bob posted, and comparing them to a spare Avanti power window regulator I have in my cellar, it "LOOKS" like the manual 'winder' & sprocket section of the C/K regulator might be adaptable to the 'secondary' section of the Avanti power window regulator, eliminating the Avanti power window motor and its associated sprocket assy,...This project SHOULD be attempted! :!:

63r2
12-31-2016, 06:56 PM
Looking at the clear pictures of L&R C/K window regulators that Bob posted, and comparing them to a spare Avanti power window regulator I have in my cellar, it "LOOKS" like the manual 'winder' & sprocket section of the C/K regulator might be adaptable to the 'secondary' section of the Avanti power window regulator, eliminating the Avanti power window motor and its associated sprocket assy,...This project SHOULD be attempted! :!:
I have mentioned previously that it should work.
I have joined the Hawk section with the Avanti section and it is a match to the existing manual winders I have.
It has not been tested it in a door as of yet but I can't see any reason why it would not work.
pb

bezhawk
12-31-2016, 08:45 PM
The ones listed in the link, are NOT Avanti regulators. They are made by Nu-Relics. http://www.nu-relics.com/Studebaker-s/487.htm
It is the only listed regulator, but they DO have ones for Avantis however, and you have to ask. If you want stock looking switches order the Ford type. They are a close match. Order the switches with the kit, as it's cheaper than ordering separate. The .Avanti regulators only supplied mounting is the center three bolts where the stock ones break out. not the best thing they could have designed. I always add additional bolts, and mounts off of the motor.. You must tweak the kit in order for it to work with any longevity. The wiring is very nice.

SN-60
01-01-2017, 01:23 PM
I have mentioned previously that it should work.
I have joined the Hawk section with the Avanti section and it is a match to the existing manual winders I have.
It has not been tested it in a door as of yet but I can't see any reason why it would not work.
pb

Thanks for your input!...I believe what you're saying is that the C/K manual window regulator winding mechanism is a match for the Avanti MANUAL winder mechanism....However, what some folks (me) would like to find out is whether or not the C/K manual winders can be adapted to the balance of an Avanti POWER WINDOW mechanism?....In effect, making Avanti power window regulators into manual window regulators! :confused:

63r2
01-01-2017, 06:55 PM
Springy,
Thats what I did.
From memory both the Avanti electric and manual winders are the same from the long arm on, from the arm back they change dependant on if they are electric or manual .
If you remove the mechanism portion of the electric window at the end of the long arm and exchange it with the appropriate hawk manual winder you should end up with manual Avanti winders.
I will see if I can dig them out of the shed and take some photos.
pb

bezhawk
01-01-2017, 08:28 PM
Avanti manual winders have the helper spring at the sissors point. The electric regulators have them at the main gear end. You can add an additional helper spring on the electric regulators by adding an anchor point to the sissors junction for the spring. The hole is already there as is the slot for the inner coil of the spring. Making sure the motor is not rusty, and worn, that the regulator is lubed and not bent,and it should be good for another 50 years.

SN-60
01-01-2017, 11:23 PM
Springy,
Thats what I did.
From memory both the Avanti electric and manual winders are the same from the long arm on, from the arm back they change dependant on if they are electric or manual .
If you remove the mechanism portion of the electric window at the end of the long arm and exchange it with the appropriate hawk manual winder you should end up with manual Avanti winders.
I will see if I can dig them out of the shed and take some photos.
pb

it would be great if you could come up with these, and post a few photos of them!:!:.....Many folks have avoided buying otherwise nice Studebaker Avantis due to the fragile, (I'm being kind here!), original power window setup!

63r2
01-02-2017, 03:56 AM
60993609946099560996

Sorry for the quality of the pictures.
The first two photos show an Avanti manual winder and one with the Gt hawk winder attached.
The third photo is of an Avanti manual and electric winder and as you can see the only difference is the winding mechanism itself and the location of the spring as Bez suggested.
I removed the pin as shown in the fourth photo and replaced the winding mechanism from there although you could probably do it further down.
I can't see any reason why it won't work but as my car is apart and I haven't installed it yet. The hawk winder seems to be a complete match with the Avanti so it should work. Now maybe a Lark winder would work as well, I'm not sure as I don't have one but I was looking at some of my GT spares when I noticed that the Hawk winder looked similar to the Avanti. Size, shape, mounting holes all the same.
Anyway see what you think and see if there is something i'm missing.
pb

SN-60
01-02-2017, 08:47 AM
60993609946099560996

Sorry for the quality of the pictures.
The first two photos show an Avanti manual winder and one with the Gt hawk winder attached.
The third photo is of an Avanti manual and electric winder and as you can see the only difference is the winding mechanism itself and the location of the spring as Bez suggested.
I removed the pin as shown in the fourth photo and replaced the winding mechanism from there although you could probably do it further down.
I can't see any reason why it won't work but as my car is apart and I haven't installed it yet. There hawk winder seems to be a complete match with the Avanti so it should work. Now maybe a Lark winder would work as well, I'm not sure as I don't have one but I was looking at some of my GT spares when I noticed that the Hawk winder looked similar to the Avanti. Size, shape, mounting holes all the same.
Anyway see what you think and see if there is something i'm missing.
pb

UNBELIEVABLE!!!.....This modification or 'tip', hands down, is the "CLEVEREST" I've seen in all the time I've been on this forum.....VERY WELL DONE & THANK YOU!!:!!::D:!!:

(I believe this will make many Avanti owners singing the "Power Window Blues" VERY HAPPY!!!!!)

bezhawk
01-02-2017, 11:25 AM
Last time I looked Hawk regulators are over $200. Add in the window crank handles @ 45. ea , now add the cost of new door panel covering to cover the larger hole for the switches.... Well, you get my point. The Nu-Relics kit looks better and better all the time.
But I still don't understand why Studebaker owners like cardboard and contact paper interiors anyways. I guess it's a point of pride to be cheap. Usually if something is broken, I fix it. Yeah I know where's the fun in that right?

SN-60
01-02-2017, 11:33 AM
[QUOTE=bezhawk;1031024]Last time I looked Hawk regulators are over $200. Add in the window crank handles @ 45. ea , now add the cost of new door panel covering to cover the larger hole for the switches.... Well, you get my point. The Nu-Relics kit looks better and better all the time.
But I still don't understand why Studebaker owners like cardboard and contact paper interiors anyways. I guess it's a point of pride to be cheap. Usually if something is broken, I fix it. Yeah I know where's the fun in that right?

Good used Hawk manual window regulators are VERY common (compared to the Avanti units) Brad, and readily available for well under $200 each. :!:

As far as Studebaker Avanti interiors go, I've always felt that they were a 'step above' some of the cheap 'vacuum formed' plastic panels found in similar year Mustangs and Mopars!

bezhawk
01-02-2017, 12:13 PM
The point of replacing something broken is to make it better...right? Replacing with used parts is only a last resort. The cheap interiors was a shot at the CASO, and Champion mindset that permiates the typical Stude owners point of pride to be cheap.

SN-60
01-02-2017, 12:20 PM
The point of replacing something broken is to make it better...right? Replacing with used parts is only a last resort. The cheap interiors was a shot at the CASO, and Champion mindset that permiates the typical Stude owners point of pride to be cheap.

NOS is always nice, but I've (and no doubt you have) repaired manual winders to make them operate 'pretty darn good'! :)

WCP
01-02-2017, 12:51 PM
HMMM! The GT Hawk winders that I have (2 sets) are the same as those pictured by sweetbob and have internal teeth on the crank sector rather that external teeth as shown by 63r2's illustration. The GT units may cause interference with the critical reinforcements of the inner panel at that location. I don't have an Avanti door available to check that out now.

Regarding the mention of inner door panel splitting or cracking, I highly recommend adding reinforcements to 2 areas of the inner panel, for both manual and power-assist mechanisms. These can be made by making your own fibreglass board stock of a thickness sufficient to fill the 2 moulded depressions flush with the inner face, at the tri-capscrew pivot point and the longitudinal one just above. Lay up 3 or 4 layers of fibreglass mat on a piece of plate glass (waxed) to make the board stock. An additional piece of board stock can be bonded to the inside of the panel face adjacent to the location of the front lower bump stop mounting.

SN-60
01-02-2017, 12:56 PM
HMMM! The GT Hawk winders that I have (2 sets) are the same as those pictured by sweetbob and have internal teeth on the crank sector rather that external teeth as shown by 63r2's illustration. The GT units may cause interference with the critical reinforcements of the inner panel at that location. I don't have an Avanti door available to check that out now.


I noticed that also. I wonder if that indeed WOULD make any difference?....Most likely not. :)

63r2
01-02-2017, 06:36 PM
[QUOTE=WCP;1031049]HMMM! The GT Hawk winders that I have (2 sets) are the same as those pictured by sweetbob and have internal teeth on the crank sector rather that external teeth as shown by 63r2's illustration. The GT units may cause interference with the critical reinforcements of the inner panel at that location. I don't have an Avanti door available to check that out now.

You raise a good point,
I assumed the winders were from a GT as it was in my pile of GT parts but I see now that they are not.
It has been a long time since my Gt was apart but I remember the different quadrant now.
I have no idea where I got the winder from. I suspect from a friend but he only had a GT as well.
They look Studebaker to me so maybe they are from a Lark.
Sorry for the misinformation/mistake but it shows that there are options out there.
Now does anyone have a photo of a Lark winder?
pb

SN-60
01-02-2017, 06:41 PM
[QUOTE=WCP;1031049]HMMM! The GT Hawk winders that I have (2 sets) are the same as those pictured by sweetbob and have internal teeth on the crank sector rather that external teeth as shown by 63r2's illustration. The GT units may cause interference with the critical reinforcements of the inner panel at that location. I don't have an Avanti door available to check that out now.

You raise a good point,
I assumed the winders were from a GT as it was in my pile of GT parts but I see now that they are not.
It has been a long time since my Gt was apart but I remember the different quadrant now.
I have no idea where I got the winder from. I suspect from a friend but he only had a GT as well.
They look Studebaker to me so maybe they are from a Lark.
Sorry for the misinformation/mistake but it shows that there are options out there.
Now does anyone have a photo of a Lark winder?
pb

They possibly ARE GT regulators, and the ones in the photos Bob posted might be regulators from an EARLIER C/K? :confused:

63r2
01-02-2017, 07:05 PM
Not sure , but you never know.
I certainly now remember the quadrant with the internal teeth on my 62GT as I have a vague recollection of repairing some teeth.
Maybe they updated things on later GTs but I suspect the are from a Lark or similar.
We need someone to check there parts supplies or parts book for an illustration to identify them.
pb

64V-K7
01-02-2017, 07:57 PM
I had started a web page with various regulators a long time ago. Never did much more going down this trail tho' and I don't see the ones described here, unless they are the 62 Lark...
http://www.studebaker-info.org/Winreg/winreg.html

WCP
01-02-2017, 08:29 PM
If the "internal tooth" mechanism can be modified to work, then the Lark may be a better candidate - '64 Lark HT.

61018

63r2
01-05-2017, 01:19 AM
Sorry for the misinformation gentlemen,
I suspect the winders were Avanti all along and got misplaced in a pile of GT hawk parts decades ago.
It did however get me looking at all the other parts trying to figure out what happened and as a consequence and found another pair of Avanti winding mechanisms, which I didn't realise I had. Now as before please don't hesitate to pick me up if you feel they aren't Avanti but I'm confident they are.
61095

These are just the winding mechanism and arm which you would then have to attach to the rest of the window bracketry .
If anyone is interested in them feel free to PM me. I will give Springy the first option should he still be interested.
Once again sorry for the misinformation however I do still believe you could get another quadrant to work with some modification.
Thanks
pb

(S)
01-05-2017, 02:14 PM
New shaft and gear sets will be available soon. (This is the shaft your handle hooks to, and the gear it drives)

SN-60
01-05-2017, 05:20 PM
Sorry for the misinformation gentlemen,
I suspect the winders were Avanti all along and got misplaced in a pile of GT hawk parts decades ago.
It did however get me looking at all the other parts trying to figure out what happened and as a consequence and found another pair of Avanti winding mechanisms, which I didn't realise I had. Now as before please don't hesitate to pick me up if you feel they aren't Avanti but I'm confident they are.
61095

These are just the winding mechanism and arm which you would then have to attach to the rest of the window bracketry .
If anyone is interested in them feel free to PM me. I will give Springy the first option should he still be interested.
Once again sorry for the misinformation however I do still believe you could get another quadrant to work with some modification.
Thanks
pb

63r2...PM sent!

(S)
01-05-2017, 05:49 PM
"inbox is full' I tried to clean it out, did not see your PM. It may be a few weeks, or a bit longer if thats what you are wondering. The different shaft lengths is the last hurdle and also the cost. Do I make Lark types available first? Hawk, etc....

I have working prototypes for certain Hawks, there are many lengths between models.

The small gears are all the same.

Then I got to thinking. Would people maybe just want the small gear? Not sure how to peddle these yet. Let me know what you guys think.

These shafts would be for 1956 to 66, by model length., except Scotsman & C Cab Trucks or models with square shank at handle end. The small gears fit the same 1956-66 Not sure if the same small gear was used prior to 1956 but am looking into it.

bezhawk
01-05-2017, 09:38 PM
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?Parta~ShowPicTxt~Z5Z5Z50000014a~Z5Z5Z5AAGMD~Z5Z5Z51

This looks like it can be made to work. 47-50 Chevy Truck.

SN-60
01-06-2017, 04:28 PM
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?Parta~ShowPicTxt~Z5Z5Z50000014a~Z5Z5Z5AAGMD~Z5Z5Z51

This looks like it can be made to work. 47-50 Chevy Truck.

Interesting!....it does look quite similar! :ohmy:

bezhawk
01-08-2017, 07:54 PM
61177611786117961180Here is the actual Nu-relics replacement Avanti window regulator. (note,that the only suppplied mounting is at the center pivot where most power window doors flex the most, and break). I always have to put support bolts and stand-off spacers directly to the motor.

SN-60
01-08-2017, 08:00 PM
61177611786117961180Here is the actual Nu-relics replacement Avanti window regulator. (note,that the only suppplied mounting is at the center pivot where most power window doors flex the most, and break). I always have to put support bolts and stand-off spacers directly to the motor.

Looks good!, made in the USA:!:, but are you saying the manufacturer of this regulator only wants it attached to the door at its center pivot?:confused:

bezhawk
01-08-2017, 09:47 PM
Yes, no, maybe, I don't know. Their instructions don't mention mounting at all. It's up to the installer to practice due diligence, and make sure everything is properly supported.

rkapteyn
01-08-2017, 10:29 PM
http://www.studebaker-info.org/Tech/Bhend/Powerwindowrep0313.pdf

Not related but interesting for Avanti owners
http://www.studebaker-info.org/text3/door1.txt
Robert Kapteyn

WCP
01-09-2017, 12:48 PM
Post #36 offers a good description of restoring a power window Avanti setup. However, it overlooks one feature of the lift mechanism, both power and manual, and that is the "rollers" on the rear of the window lift, are not really rollers, but rotating guides. At that point there is metal to metal contact as the widow slides up and down in the track. This creates wear on the guide studs that contributes to window for and aft slop. One needs to separate the nylon guides, clean the studs well, and examine them for wear. If badly worn, they should be replaced. It is also possible to rotate them 90 degrees and retack them with a Mig welder.
The designers should have included a shaft rotating sleeve for those studs (for 50 year service!).