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SN-60
12-19-2016, 06:42 PM
'cabforwards' search for the engine which his Golden Hawk '400' was born with reminds me of a similar story..........

Several years ago I sold a really nice '55 Speedster. (serial # 7167047) About two years before I sold that car, I installed an R1 in it, and saved the original engine (#P18138).

Apparently, that Speedster bounced around a bit, being resold a few times, until I learned last year that the car is now in Portugal! :woot:

I was subsequently contacted by the mechanic who cares for the car, and he informed me the owner was very interested in obtaining the original 'numbers matching' 259.

(He found out through this Studebaker Forum that I still had the engine.)

I told him that I'd also like to see the 259 re-installed, and offered to swap even for the R1.

We spoke several times, but apparently shipping two engines back and forth across the Atlantic was more than he could handle!

I'll hold onto the 259 though,..just in case he, (or even the NEXT owner of my old Speedster), just HAS TO HAVE that original engine! :)

8E45E
12-19-2016, 07:52 PM
If you have the space and proper storage to do so, absolutely!!

Craig

SN-60
12-20-2016, 06:04 PM
Kind of interesting about the R1 engine in my old Speedster....Its serial # is R-201...it came out of a 1963 Avanti....Now, I always thought 1963 Avanti "R" engine serial numbers all had FOUR digits after the "R" or the "RS"......

but that '63 "R" engine only had three:ohmy:.....I checked that '201' carefully when I installed it, and years later when the Speedster was for sale in St.Louis, that three digit engine number was in their advertisement.

Thoughts on this :confused:

rockne10
12-20-2016, 08:07 PM
I was subsequently contacted by the mechanic who cares for the car, and he informed me the owner was very interested in obtaining the original 'numbers matching' 259. I told him that I'd also like to see the 259 re-installed, and offered to swap even for the R1.Nice as it would be to have the R1 back, at this point the 259 is just a generic Studebaker engine. I would have sold it to Portugal for a price plus shipping. Makes two people happy.

SN-60
12-20-2016, 08:44 PM
Nice as it would be to have the R1 back, at this point the 259 is just a generic Studebaker engine. I would have sold it to Portugal for a price plus shipping. Makes two people happy.

Yes that would be okay....but I figured the owner wouldn't have to come up with any $$$$ (except for shipping!) on a swap deal. All-in-all, the R1, with its hotter cam and high compression pistons is nice, but a good running 259 is more my cup of tea. I just bought into the idea of re-uniting the engine with its original chassis...especially for a car like a President Speedster! :)

rockne10
12-20-2016, 08:53 PM
... I figured the owner wouldn't have to come up with any $$$$ (except for shipping!) on a swap deal.He's the one who is motivated to reunite the numbers. Why shouldn't that be profitable to you?

48skyliner
12-20-2016, 09:21 PM
I have always thought that matching numbers is very important. Whenever I buy a car I always make sure the number on the VIN tag matches the number on the title.

I have owned a lot of cars in the last 60 years, and the ones that were most enjoyable to drive and gave me the most pride of ownership were without exception the ones that had the original engines replaced with something better.

SN-60
12-20-2016, 09:26 PM
He's the one who is motivated to reunite the numbers. Why shouldn't that be profitable to you?

Hard to explain,...... but as I get older, a sappy thing like re-uniting a Studebaker engine with its original chassis means more to me than making a few bucks!.....:woot:

TWChamp
12-21-2016, 11:13 AM
In the interest of preserving Studebaker history, and keeping things the way the factory made them, I like to see matching numbers also. I was glad when I bought my 1950 Champion production order and found everything was original and correct.

8E45E
12-21-2016, 02:19 PM
I hope Ed is still able to find his missing engine. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?88995-Somebody-anybody-please-tell-me-the-fate-of-Avanti-Engine-RS-1581

Not to mention, Jeff being successful in locating his original GH 400 engine, and Eric for the missing JTS engine.

Craig

jbwhttail
12-21-2016, 06:17 PM
As with other makes, as years pass number matching vehicles will demand premium pricing. I have the mindset that if the car is going to be restored then if at all possible keep the original power train. If the car is beyond restoration do what you wish. if I were the guy in Portugal the original engine would be on its way.

64studeavanti
12-21-2016, 06:39 PM
IMHO, the numbers matching thing is important and will become more important for the semi collectible studes such as speedsters, golden hawks, avantis, super hawks and larks as well as convertibles. The rest, not so much.

BILT4ME
12-21-2016, 06:56 PM
If he had enough $$$ to import the car to Portugal, then he has enough $$$ to swap engines.

SN-60
12-21-2016, 07:04 PM
If he had enough $$$ to import the car to Portugal, then he has enough $$$ to swap engines.

Well, who knows?......maybe the Speedster's owner decided he LIKES the extra 'punch' of an R1.......I know that I did!!!! :woot:

SN-60
12-22-2016, 06:54 PM
Another 'matching numbers' story from the "SN-60 Archives".................

Before buying the President Speedster mentioned above, I drove a fairly nice 1956 Golden Hawk (serial #6030610)...It was one of the somewhat rare factory stick o/d with power steering models.

The car had been raced, and its original Packard V8 engine (#K-1021) was very, very tired to the point of 'giving up the ghost'! :ohmy:

One day I spotted a '55 Packard Clipper Custom on the back of a rollback heading for the boneyard. I followed the truck, and struck a deal on the '352' engine in that Packard, which I was told was in good shape. :!:

(That 'very nice condition' '55 Clipper, like so many other nice condition '55-'56 Packards, was scrapped due to the troublesome Twin-Ultramatic transmission used in those cars)

Anyway, they delivered the Clipper '352' engine to my house,.... I installed it... it ran GREAT!...... and then a few days later they picked up the K-1021 engine, which I traded in.

It didn't take me too long to realize that I goofed by letting that original '56 GH engine go!.....I learned that (90% of the Packard engines installed in '56 Golden Hawks had the "S" prefix, denoting an automatic transmission model, and that "K" stamped blocks were extremely rare. (It was the 21st stick o/d Packard engine installed into a 56J at South Bend.)

I guess it was then that I began to give serious thought about the relevance of 'matching numbers' for Studebakers! (and other makes also!)

That '56 Golden still exists, but K-1021 is long, long GONE! :(

SN-60
12-23-2016, 07:01 PM
As with other makes, as years pass number matching vehicles will demand premium pricing. I have the mindset that if the car is going to be restored then if at all possible keep the original power train. If the car is beyond restoration do what you wish. if I were the guy in Portugal the original engine would be on its way.

My thoughts exactly!

Hallabutt
12-23-2016, 08:24 PM
Here's a story for you. About thirty five years ago a good friend bought a 1934 Pierce Arrow-Silver Arrow. It is a production SA and had the optional V12. He bought the care in western Louisiana from a PA collector who is till very active today. The purchaser and mutual friend decided to fly down south and drive the car back to Washington state. Except for the snow encountered in Colorado (no working wipers) they had a great time. The car was purchased with the knowledge that the original engine had been replaced some years previously. About ten years later we were on a garage tour in the Seattle area. We went to another friend's large collection. This friend had a Pebble Beach quality 1934 PA coupe which he had restored some years previously. In the middle of his shop he had a PA V12 on display. He had purchased the engine years before as a spare. He remembered that he bought it in W Texas, but could no remember from whom. Long story short it was the original engine for the SA. I wish that I could say that the engine returned where it belonged, but matching numbers didn't mean what they do today. Matching numbers in the Classic car world has become a hugely important part of the story of the car, and one that is often reflected in the car's value. I wonder if the outcome of the story would be different today. The same thing is happening today to post war cars. The story of an original car often trumps it's form.

SN-60
12-24-2016, 09:02 AM
Kind of interesting about the R1 engine in my old Speedster....Its serial # is R-201...it came out of a 1963 Avanti....Now, I always thought 1963 Avanti "R" engine serial numbers all had FOUR digits after the "R" or the "RS"......

but that '63 "R" engine only had three:ohmy:.....I checked that '201' carefully when I installed it, and years later when the Speedster was for sale in St.Louis, that three digit engine number was in their advertisement.

Thoughts on this :confused:

"Bump"...No one has any idea why this 'R' engine is missing a serial number digit?....Did someone at the factory simply forget to stamp the last digit?

SN-60
12-24-2016, 02:26 PM
I really lucked out when it comes to still having the numbers matching engine in my present Speedster. ('The Doctor's Car')........ When this Studebaker was parked in 1965, the original engine had 'blown', wiping out the #1 rod journal...no insert bearings left whatsoever!...The engine had been pulled, and at first I figured it had been scrapped. :(

When I bought this Speedster, THREE 259 CI short blocks, and several loose cylinder heads, were included in the deal. :ohmy:

Anyway, after sending for the production order, I learned that one of the 3 short blocks indeed was the original engine, and after boiling it out and having the machine work done, (including a new crankshaft), it's been running 'sweet' for the last twenty-six years! :!!:

StudeRich
12-24-2016, 05:35 PM
from Post Number 3:


Kind of interesting about the R1 engine in my old Speedster....Its serial # is R-201...it came out of a 1963 Avanti....Now, I always thought 1963 Avanti "R" engine serial numbers all had FOUR digits after the "R" or the "RS"......
but that '63 "R" engine only had three:ohmy:.....I checked that '201' carefully when I installed it, and years later when the Speedster was for sale in St.Louis, that three digit engine number was in their advertisement. Thoughts on this :confused:

Since this WAS the Starting R1 Avanti Engine Serial Number, one DOES have to wonder! Built on a Monday? :D



R-1,001

1963 Avanti w/R1


289

GrumpyOne
12-25-2016, 12:35 AM
I really lucked out when it comes to still having the numbers matching engine in my present Speedster. ('The Doctor's Car')........ When this Studebaker was parked in 1965, the original engine had 'blown', wiping out the #1 rod journal...no insert bearings left whatsoever!...The engine had been pulled, and at first I figured it had been scrapped. :(

When I bought this Speedster, THREE 259 CI short blocks, and several loose cylinder heads, were included in the deal. :ohmy:

Anyway, after sending for the production order, I learned that one of the 3 short blocks indeed was the original engine, and after boiling it out and having the machine work done, (including a new crankshaft), it's been running 'sweet' for the last twenty-six years! :!!:



I bought my '56 Power Hawk from the second owner who was my neighbor who bought it from our plumber who bought it new. So I know the whole, (although basic), history of the car which had spent it's time up to then in RI. When I bought it in 1966 for a whopping $300, it had 33K on the clock and now has just turned over 90K. It's a typical Power Hawk with three speed and overdrive.

Curiously, by neighbor bragged on how the "free wheeling" saved gas. Well it was free wheeling awright but I didn't discover the cause until I drove it down to DC where I was stationed. One day when the car was on a lift getting an oil change, I noticed a wire laying against the frame. I got some electrical tape, wrapped it and for the first time I believe the OD worked after replacing the fuse in the relay.

I'm very sure that it is a numbers matching car...

SN-60
12-25-2016, 09:43 AM
I bought my '56 Power Hawk from the second owner who was my neighbor who bought it from our plumber who bought it new. So I know the whole, (although basic), history of the car which had spent it's time up to then in RI. When I bought it in 1966 for a whopping $300, it had 33K on the clock and now has just turned over 90K. It's a typical Power Hawk with three speed and overdrive.

Curiously, by neighbor bragged on how the "free wheeling" saved gas. Well it was free wheeling awright but I didn't discover the cause until I drove it down to DC where I was stationed. One day when the car was on a lift getting an oil change, I noticed a wire laying against the frame. I got some electrical tape, wrapped it and for the first time I believe the OD worked after replacing the fuse in the relay.

I'm very sure that it is a numbers matching car...


Great story!:)...You didn't purchase your Power Hawk from a fellow named Earl Avery did you?...Earl (since passed) was a good "Stude buddy" of mine, and owned a very clean all black '56 Power Hawk which he sold around that time....Earl was from Rhode Island.

GrumpyOne
12-25-2016, 07:04 PM
Great story!:)...You didn't purchase your Power Hawk from a fellow named Earl Avery did you?...Earl (since passed) was a good "Stude buddy" of mine, and owned a very clean all black '56 Power Hawk which he sold around that time....Earl was from Rhode Island.

Nope. It had to be another car...

Flashback
12-25-2016, 08:38 PM
I have a numbers matching 53 coupe. The rear end number matches a 2000 Blazer. The Transmission number matches a 55 Studebaker 4-dr sedan. The engine number matches a 63 Avanti. BUT, the frame number matches the body. By the way, where does this engine number fit in?
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Flashback53/intakeandcarburetor010_zps0431b31b.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Flashback53/media/intakeandcarburetor010_zps0431b31b.jpg.html)

Skip Lackie
12-25-2016, 09:09 PM
First number was R1001, so I guess it's number 14.

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/V8EngineID.asp

SN-60
12-25-2016, 11:56 PM
I have a numbers matching 53 coupe. The rear end number matches a 2000 Blazer. The Transmission number matches a 55 Studebaker 4-dr sedan. The engine number matches a 63 Avanti. BUT, the frame number matches the body. By the way, where does this engine number fit in?
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Flashback53/intakeandcarburetor010_zps0431b31b.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Flashback53/media/intakeandcarburetor010_zps0431b31b.jpg.html)

I believe, at least on the very early '63 Avantis, that the engine serial number ran pretty close to the chassis serial number.....Your R1 engine was probably removed from one of the first twenty or so Studebaker Avantis built! :ohmy:

May I ask how you acquired this engine?...And what became of the Avanti it left the factory with?

StudeDave57
12-26-2016, 01:18 AM
First number was R1001, so I guess it's number 14.

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/V8EngineID.asp

Good in theory, 'cept for one thing.

Avanti number one (63R1001) had RS102 under it's hood... ;)
It'll be returning to it's rightful spot soon.


https://www.americascarmuseum.org/avanti-project/

S2Deluxe
12-26-2016, 02:31 AM
Well, who knows?......maybe the Speedster's owner decided he LIKES the extra 'punch' of an R1.......I know that I did!!!! :woot:

If this Speedster were mine, I'd rather have the matching #'s block. I don't believe there's any reason it couldn't be upgraded to R1 specs, if that was desired? My preference would be to upgrade it more in the manner of what you did with the Doctor's car, or perhaps a little more towards the R2 flavor.

Mark

Skip Lackie
12-26-2016, 08:14 AM
Good in theory, 'cept for one thing.

Avanti number one (63R1001) had RS102 under it's hood... ;)
It'll be returning to it's rightful spot soon.


https://www.americascarmuseum.org/avanti-project/



I was not referring to the 14th Avanti, but the 14th R-numbered engine.

SN-60
12-26-2016, 08:58 AM
Good in theory, 'cept for one thing.

Avanti number one (63R1001) had RS102 under it's hood... ;)
It'll be returning to it's rightful spot soon.



https://www.americascarmuseum.org/avanti-project/




If you take the time to read the text, you'll see that 63R-1001 was built with 'RS' (supercharged) engine # 1002. This is a good indication how closely Avanti engine numbers followed very early Avanti chassis (serial) #'s! :)

64V-K7
12-26-2016, 10:46 AM
I don't have anything on which car this engine went into, however The 1st R1 engine went into 63R-1008

SN-60
12-26-2016, 11:45 AM
I don't have anything on which car this engine went into, however The 1st R1 engine went into 63R-1008

Which 'probably' means that the first handful of Studebaker Avantis built were equipped with superchargers....and that makes sense! :)

StudeDave57
12-26-2016, 12:09 PM
I was not referring to the 14th Avanti, but the 14th R-numbered engine.

After a re-read of your comment, sure-- it could be read that way too.
No worries.


If you take the time to read the text, you'll see that 63R-1001 was built with 'RS' (supercharged) engine # 1002. This is a good indication how closely Avanti engine numbers followed very early Avanti chassis (serial) #'s! :)

I suppose you're right-- it's hard to keep track of all those zeros when it comes to that particular Avanti. But I didn't really need to read the article, as I've seen the car and engine with my own two eyes and touched it with my own two hands. Many times. ;)

Don't be jealous. :ohmy: :whome: :D

If you make it out to Tacoma in 2018- maybe I can show it to you...
:cheers:




StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
12-26-2016, 01:11 PM
Dave,...I'd love to check out 63R-1001...is it nearing completion?

SN-60
12-26-2016, 01:22 PM
Another example of a Studebaker that benefits greatly by still having its original powerplant is Ron Crall's (Maine) 1963 Avanti! :)

Ron's Avanti, 63R 1025, is an ex-Granatelli car. It was used in the 1963 HRM road test of the 'new Avanti'!

Its engine, (RS-1021), is an early R2 that was highly modified by the Granatelli's into one of the early 'A' series R3's! (299CI) :ohmy:

I think everyone would agree that having that original 'numbers matching' engine under the hood of Ron's Avanti significantly increases its historical (and financial) value! :!:

SN-60
12-26-2016, 02:17 PM
There's a couple of nice photos of 63R 1025 and the RS-1021 Granatelli engine over on the AOAI FORUM.....see Avanti Trivia. :)

RDWEAVER
12-26-2016, 05:04 PM
I have a numbers matching 53 coupe. The rear end number matches a 2000 Blazer. The Transmission number matches a 55 Studebaker 4-dr sedan. The engine number matches a 63 Avanti. BUT, the frame number matches the body. By the way, where does this engine number fit in?
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Flashback53/intakeandcarburetor010_zps0431b31b.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Flashback53/media/intakeandcarburetor010_zps0431b31b.jpg.html)


It fits in where ever you can hide it nowadays. I was at a car show this summer and noticed the amount of car owners who all were claiming to have numbers matching vehicles. Mostly Camaros and Impalas also some Mustangs. They claim they are worth more money if numbers matching.
I owned a couple of 60"s cars on the 70"s and when the engine wore out and you wanted a new one you found another one and put it in. Well to make a long story short I had one owner tell me his Impala SS was a numbers matching car. Little did he know that I just happened to be one of the previous owners and I knew for sure the real numbers matching engine was not with the car cause it has a hole in the block and is still laying in a scrap heap where I left it 35 years ago. I didn't tell him any different it made no difference to me and he may have been fooled by the person he bought it from. Then I realized how so many of these cars at the car show were numbers matching. I know some of these numbers are counterfeited.... not all of them but maybe more than you think. These numbers can be re-stamped by almost anyone who can swing the hammer. It's sad but there are people in our hobby that are not as honest as they should be.

SN-60
12-26-2016, 07:20 PM
Speaking of stamping serial numbers into engine blocks,...a question!,....at Studebaker, did a machine do the stamping or was the engine # stamped in by hand? :confused:

RDWEAVER
12-26-2016, 08:17 PM
I don't know how you could tell the difference. Mine are not perfectly straight so I would guess they were done individually by hand and the swing of a hammer.

bensherb
12-26-2016, 09:56 PM
It fits in where ever you can hide it nowadays. I was at a car show this summer and noticed the amount of car owners who all were claiming to have numbers matching vehicles. Mostly Camaros and Impalas also some Mustangs. They claim they are worth more money if numbers matching.
I owned a couple of 60"s cars on the 70"s and when the engine wore out and you wanted a new one you found another one and put it in. Well to make a long story short I had one owner tell me his Impala SS was a numbers matching car. Little did he know that I just happened to be one of the previous owners and I knew for sure the real numbers matching engine was not with the car cause it has a hole in the block and is still laying in a scrap heap where I left it 35 years ago. I didn't tell him any different it made no difference to me and he may have been fooled by the person he bought it from. Then I realized how so many of these cars at the car show were numbers matching. I know some of these numbers are counterfeited.... not all of them but maybe more than you think. These numbers can be re-stamped by almost anyone who can swing the hammer. It's sad but there are people in our hobby that are not as honest as they should be.

I don't think it's so much a matter of honesty, but of a different interpretation of "numbers matching". I've always had Fords but a few Chevys too, and I've never seen a stamped number on any of the engines or other hard parts of any of them later than the 1940's, the numbers were always cast in. I think when these guys refer to "numbers matching" they mean the parts with numbers on them are correct for that year and model car, not that specific VIN car. As far as I know numbers of what specific engine block, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, axle carrier....etc was in a particular VIN car weren't kept other than a few specially built units.

Compared to Ford and Chevy, our Studebakers are more like Rolls Royce. Instead of making hundreds of thousands of them they were almost made by hand on a personal level and records of irrelevant things are more often kept at this level.

Skip Lackie
12-27-2016, 09:50 AM
I don't think it's so much a matter of honesty, but of a different interpretation of "numbers matching". I've always had Fords but a few Chevys too, and I've never seen a stamped number on any of the engines or other hard parts of any of them later than the 1940's, the numbers were always cast in. I think when these guys refer to "numbers matching" they mean the parts with numbers on them are correct for that year and model car, not that specific VIN car. As far as I know numbers of what specific engine block, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, axle carrier....etc was in a particular VIN car weren't kept other than a few specially built units.

Compared to Ford and Chevy, our Studebakers are more like Rolls Royce. Instead of making hundreds of thousands of them they were almost made by hand on a personal level and records of irrelevant things are more often kept at this level.


Don't know exactly when it started (mid 50s?), but every Chevy I've owned had either a specific ID or date code stamped on nearly every drive train part. One of the Camaro clubs has a whole web site devoted to decoding these numbers, and most Chevy parts books include 100 or so pages of ID tables. With its many brands and in-house manufacturing capability (Delco, Muncie, Saginaw, etc), GM identified nearly everything by date of manufacture, application, and/or part number. Most engine codes include not only their displacement, but also manufacturing place and date, their application (car model), carb, and trans.

http://www.nastyz28.com/decode.html

BILT4ME
12-27-2016, 01:02 PM
I don't think it's so much a matter of honesty, but of a different interpretation of "numbers matching". I've always had Fords but a few Chevys too, and I've never seen a stamped number on any of the engines or other hard parts of any of them later than the 1940's, the numbers were always cast in. I think when these guys refer to "numbers matching" they mean the parts with numbers on them are correct for that year and model car, not that specific VIN car. As far as I know numbers of what specific engine block, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, axle carrier....etc was in a particular VIN car weren't kept other than a few specially built units.

Compared to Ford and Chevy, our Studebakers are more like Rolls Royce. Instead of making hundreds of thousands of them they were almost made by hand on a personal level and records of irrelevant things are more often kept at this level.

Yes, the Chevrolet's of the world definitely have serial number matching records of what engine, transmission, and rear axle went in which car/truck. The trucks not as much (They only tracked the casting numbers) but the cars definitely did the serial numbers.

Every Dana axle housing has a serial number and BOM number stamped into the housing on the RH axle tube to identify what it came out of and what BOM to use for Dana-Spicer rebuild parts. We're going through all this right now on a 1970 GMC K2500.

r1lark
12-27-2016, 05:23 PM
Mopars starting in 1969 were extensively marked with the VIN number on the frame, sheet metal, engine, transmission, etc. This tells some info about Chrysler numbers matching: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/matching-numbers-defined.10596/. Not sure how many years this lasted.

bensherb
12-27-2016, 06:35 PM
What is a BOM? I have loose Dana axle assembly and want to know what year carriers I can use to replace the one that's in it. Mid '80s Jeep trac loc carriers are a dime a dozen.

StudeRich
12-27-2016, 07:30 PM
"Usually", BOM indicates Bill of Materials.

In GM's case who knows, few Gm's actually have a Production Order available, if that is the same as a BOM.
Maybe a few Pontiacs?

SN-60
12-28-2016, 06:42 PM
Another numbers matching (NOT!!) story from the "SN-60 Archives"........................

A few years ago a Studebaker Forum member purchased a rare '58 Packard station wagon!.....Describing his car, the owner mentioned that its engine's serial # began with the letters "LS"!!:ohmy:

I remember how excited the oldtimers on this forum got, thinking that there possibly was a '58 Packard wagon built with a supercharged engine! :woot:

However, I quickly jumped into the conversation to let folks know that the wagon did indeed leave the factory with a normal "L" engine.....I had helped a friend install the "LS" engine, which was removed from a wrecked and parted out '58 Packard Hawk, several years earlier.

This "numbers matching" thing can be quite intriguing! :)

bensherb
12-29-2016, 05:17 PM
Ok, so I looked at my Dana axle it does have some numbers on the right axle tube, well partial numbers, they're very poorly stamped, light and the bottom 1/4 of the numbers isn't there. Best I can tell it's marked 420 2c 2468 . So what does this tell anyone?
The center casting has the number 18419 with an A in a circle over it, there are other cast in numbers but they're not readable due to casting flaws. The bolted on tag says 46-13 over .354, I know this is the axle ratio.

S2Deluxe
12-30-2016, 12:18 AM
The bolted on tag says 46-13 over .354, I know this is the axle ratio.

46 = number of ring gear teeth. 13 = number of pinion gear teeth. The number of ring gear teeth devided by the number of pinion gear teeth = the rear axel ratio.

Mark

SN-60
12-30-2016, 07:09 PM
Another Studebaker that really wouldn't be the same without its original 'numbers matching' engine is the President Speedster factory showcar (serial #7150002)........

This Speedster, the earliest example known to exist, is still powered by its original 259CI engine, # P-102, which would be the second 'production' 259 built.

It would be a shame if THAT engine had been replaced over the years.....BUT IT WASN'T!! :!!:

bensherb
01-01-2017, 12:12 AM
[QUOTE bensherb;1030380]The bolted on tag says 46-13 over .354, I know this is the axle ratio.


46 = number of ring gear teeth. 13 = number of pinion gear teeth. The number of ring gear teeth devided by the number of pinion gear teeth = the rear axel ratio.

Mark

Yea, that's what I said. " I know this is the axle ratio"

It doesn't tell me anything else about the axle though.

RDWEAVER
01-01-2017, 08:57 PM
I don't think it's so much a matter of honesty, but of a different interpretation of "numbers matching". I've always had Fords but a few Chevys too, and I've never seen a stamped number on any of the engines or other hard parts of any of them later than the 1940's, the numbers were always cast in. I think when these guys refer to "numbers matching" they mean the parts with numbers on them are correct for that year and model car, not that specific VIN car. As far as I know numbers of what specific engine block, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, axle carrier....etc was in a particular VIN car weren't kept other than a few specially built units.

Compared to Ford and Chevy, our Studebakers are more like Rolls Royce. Instead of making hundreds of thousands of them they were almost made by hand on a personal level and records of irrelevant things are more often kept at this level.
I have my production order that states the engine serial number. I am quite sure the rest of the manufacturers also kept track of the engine serial numbers as well.

S2Deluxe
01-02-2017, 09:16 AM
Yea, that's what I said. " I know this is the axle ratio"

It doesn't tell me anything else about the axle though.

I'm sorry, I have no information on the signifigance of the numbers stamped in the right Axel tube. If anyone else does, I'd be interested in knowing? I don't believe there is even a space for recording these digits, on the production order copy I have, for my car?

Mark

SN-60
01-02-2017, 09:20 AM
I'm sorry, I have no information on the signifigance of the numbers stamped in the right Axel tube. If anyone else does, I'd be interested in knowing? I don't believe there is even a space for recording these digits, on the production order copy I have, for my car?

Mark

True, the only passenger car rear axle info you'll find on a Studebaker production order is the ratio and whether or not it's "TT".

SN-60
01-15-2017, 12:05 PM
It appears that George Krem has accessability to Studebaker Avanti production records to the extent where he can correlate 'R' series engine numbers with original Avanti chassis (serial) numbers! :!:

This is interesting, as more and more folks are wondering if their Avanti has its original 'numbers matching' engine! :confused:

8E45E
01-15-2017, 01:07 PM
It appears that George Krem has accessability to Studebaker Avanti production records to the extent where he can correlate 'R' series engine numbers with original Avanti chassis (serial) numbers!

And you can buy a copy to show your appreciation for his effort: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?51160-Avanti-Production-Statistics-now-available

Craig

SN-60
01-15-2017, 03:12 PM
And you can buy a copy to show your appreciation for his effort: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?51160-Avanti-Production-Statistics-now-available

Craig

Good post! I have a feeling many Avanti buffs didn't know about this material being available! (without just purchasing specific production orders)

StudeRich
01-15-2017, 04:07 PM
A minor Correction is needed here. '55 President 259 Engine Number P102 would be the Second '55 PRESIDENT 259 Engine built for Production, not Speedster Specific, and maybe NOT the second 259, so not the Second Production 259.

It was more likely V-331,102


Another Studebaker that really wouldn't be the same without its original 'numbers matching' engine is the President Speedster factory showcar (serial #7150002)........

This Speedster, the earliest example known to exist, is still powered by its original 259CI engine, # P-102, which would be the second 'production' 259 built./Cut/

SN-60
01-15-2017, 06:30 PM
A minor Correction is needed here. '55 President 259 Engine Number P102 would be the Second '55 PRESIDENT 259 Engine built for Production, not Speedster Specific, and maybe NOT the second 259, so not the Second Production 259.

It was more likely V-331,102

No Rich, we have to correct YOU!!...A Commander engine made that early would likely be a 224 engine NOT a 259!.....And no one said P-102 was 'Speedster specific'! ;)

WCP
01-15-2017, 10:10 PM
I acquired a model 44 axle from Avanti Parts in South Bend in the early 80's from the stack of spare stock. Since the axle hadn't seen weather, the stamping on the right tube was the date of manufacture, I believe. The date was in 1967. The axle back cover had a stamped reinforcement around the perimeter between the capscrews. The filler plug was also elevated above the base of the axle tube. Otherwise, the axle was identical to earlier '63s tapered axles. I may have recorded the date stamping. I will check.

WCP
01-16-2017, 09:04 PM
Adding to post #59, I apparently didn't record the stamped numbers, but I checked a very clean painted axle that's in my truck for delivery. The stamped numbers on the right axle tube are 76242 followed by 2545. This axle is from a '63 production Avanti with a 4.09 ratio. Doesn't appear to be a date code.