Early Avanti II engine question

[289stude]

Why wouldn't they have given the option to install any of the leftover R1 R2 R3 R4 engines that were still available?

[SN-60]

Why wouldn't they have given the option to install any of the leftover R1 R2 R3 R4 engines that were still available?

The Altmans were, at the time, were selling Chevy powered Avantis...and set the cars up for that particular engine.

But if there were a leftover Studebaker engine around, and a prospective buyer insisted on it (and had the extra cash) would they have installed it?....OF COURSE the Altman's would have!

[Jett289]

Its an interesting question for sure .. I wonder if they even approached Studebaker on possible engines ? It must have been such a huge undertaking to get the Avanti rights , stampings, moulds etc to start producing them again .. A detailed book on that would be so fascinating .. Specially the negotiating with Studebaker ..

[Warren Webb]

I don't think it took too much negotiating. Like who else was at the door for Studebaker? It was either accept the Altman/Newman offer or send it all to scrap. Studebaker was in a hurry to rid itself of things. That's the reason too that all the truck parts (& ability to build trucks if they wanted to) were part of the deal.

[dynolou2]

From what I have read, they approached Studebaker management several times, "you want to restart production of the Avanti" The Board of Directors came back with a counter offer : the 3 buildings all rights, parts to build and the thing that kept them in the black- all the parts in the warehouses for ALL Studebaker products for the sum of $ 600.000 in 1965. Some of this story came from silent partner Mr. Seaton, at the 2012 Avanti banquet. Lou Cote

[Gunslinger]

Studebaker has also closed the foundry where engines were cast. That alone made it imperative for Studebaker of Canada to find a new engine source (McKinnon). If Studebaker wouldn't keep the foundry open to supply several thousand engines a year for Studebaker of Canada, why would they do so for Avanti Motors which was considered a risky proposition at best? That would only have been a small number of engines to cast, finish, assemble and warranty. The unit costs would likely have been far too high when Avanti Motors could simply buy crate engines from GM already being produced in larger numbers for economy of scale.

[clonelark]

Studebaker was already using the Chevy engine, a no brainer.

[sgriggs]

While they may have indulged a persistent request from a customer to build an Avanti II with a surplus Studebaker engine, the Altmans' primary intent was to refine the character of the car (i.e. move it away from a personal performance car and move it toward being a hand-crafted rolling piece of artwork). Thus they did away with the rake, installed quieter mufflers, allowed any exterior/interior color combination the customer wanted, and selected a relatively vanilla small block Chevy engine to power the car. They thought (correctly) that their best path was to differentiate their product through extreme flexibility in paint and interior choices, not powertrain offerings.

Offering multiple engine options from different manufacturers would have been a logistic headache to say the least and not a very profitable way to make money on extreme low volume production.

I think it is interesting that there has never been a report (that I'm aware of) of an Altman Avanti II coming from the factory with anything hotter than a 300 horse 327 or 350. Chevy certainly built more potent small blocks in the 1960s and early 1970s.

[Gunslinger]

For years I've seen claims of Avanti II's being factory equipped with Corvette LT-1 engines but apparently no documented examples have been confirmed to my knowledge. That would mean Avanti II's from the 1970-1972 era which is when genuine LT-1 engines were produced. That's not to say an LT-1 wasn't retrofitted by someone but it wasn't a factory installation.

Nate Altman did put out a press release of the intention of selling an Avanti "Stinger" model which to read it, would lead one to assume an more powerful engine like an LT-1 might have been part of the package but I've never seen anyone claim to have a genuine Avanti "Stinger" which leads me to believe none were actually produced. If any were produced, I would think owners of any might be aware of it...especially if they obtained a build sheet or were in possession of any original sales invoices. According to the release, a "Stinger" would have to have the "maximum" performance 350 Corvette engine (presumably a LT-1) and a 4-speed transmission at the minimum.

[StudeRich]

The Altman Avantis did have the 4 Speed Manual Transmission as an Option, that is about as close as they got to a "Performance" Type Avanti.

However the later I think it was the 'Blake "Avanti Motors" had a High Performance "Race Car" that they Ran.

And then there is the later Touring Coupe Avantis with all Black out trim and a 5 Speed Manual Overdrive, unfortunately with only a High Output 305 Engine, but that is a start!

[studegary]

I believe that post no. 8 has the gist of it. Avanti II was going after an upscale market (from Studebaker) - lawyers, doctors, etc. The car was to be a personal luxury car, not a performance car.

[53k]

For years I've seen claims of Avanti II's being factory equipped with Corvette LT-1 engines but apparently no documented examples have been confirmed to my knowledge. That would mean Avanti II's from the 1970-1972 era which is when genuine LT-1 engines were produced. That's not to say an LT-1 wasn't retrofitted by someone but it wasn't a factory installation.

Nate Altman did put out a press release of the intention of selling an Avanti "Stinger" model which to read it, would lead one to assume an more powerful engine like an LT-1 might have been part of the package but I've never seen anyone claim to have a genuine Avanti "Stinger" which leads me to believe none were actually produced. If any were produced, I would think owners of any might be aware of it...especially if they obtained a build sheet or were in possession of any original sales invoices. According to the release, a "Stinger" would have to have the "maximum" performance 350 Corvette engine (presumably a LT-1) and a 4-speed transmission at the minimum.

FWIW- In 1972 I bought 1966 Avanti II RQA-0078 from Tommy Thompkins, an Avanti dealer near Boston, Massachusetts. In preparing it for delivery to me he found that the engine was not the standard Corvette 327-300 (see attached letter). One additional clue that it wasn't the basic 327-300 was the original Holley carburetor. When I asked him what constituted a "high performance Special" he told me that it was a 327-365 engine. I have no documentation to the effect that it was a factory installation, but there was also no indication from examination or history of the previous owner had replaced the original 327. Tommy had bought the car from the Avanti factory where it had been traded in on a new Avanti. The car had fewer than 30,000 miles on it when I bought it.
It was truly a screamer- would throw off the fan belt in a heartbeat if you didn't take it a little easier. And, when I was in Kansas with the car, I had three adults in the car with me, nice open highway, so I took it up to 100 mph and cruised a bit before stomping on the pedal. It pressed us all back in the seat at that speed.

[Skip Lackie]

Paul-
I had a friend with a 65 Corvette with the 327-365 engine, and I drove it and rode in it a number of times. My recollection is a very lumpy idle and a lot of clatter from the solid lifters. Do you remember that from that engine?

[Gunslinger]

FWIW- In 1972 I bought 1966 Avanti II RQA-0078 from Tommy Thompkins, an Avanti dealer near Boston, Massachusetts. In preparing it for delivery to me he found that the engine was not the standard Corvette 327-300 (see attached letter). One additional clue that it wasn't the basic 327-300 was the original Holley carburetor. When I asked him what constituted a "high performance Special" he told me that it was a 327-365 engine. I have no documentation to the effect that it was a factory installation, but there was also no indication from examination or history of the previous owner had replaced the original 327. Tommy had bought the car from the Avanti factory where it had been traded in on a new Avanti. The car had fewer than 30,000 miles on it when I bought it.
It was truly a screamer- would throw off the fan belt in a heartbeat if you didn't take it a little easier. And, when I was in Kansas with the car, I had three adults in the car with me, nice open highway, so I took it up to 100 mph and cruised a bit before stomping on the pedal. It pressed us all back in the seat at that speed.

The casting numbers and stampings on the engine would provide what the engine was when it left GM as well as its casting date which could put it in the time period to have been a factory installed engine or retrofitted after it left South Bend. A production sheet should have the engine numbers listed and could have been compared to the engine in the car.

Also...a Holley carburetor was standard on Avanti II's from RQA0057 through RQA0257 (1966-1968). That alone doesn't mean it's a hi-po engine but is at least a clue as GM put Holleys on the hi-po engines during those years. It depends on the numbers on the Holley whether it's for a hi-po engine or a more standard Holley.

[53k]

Paul-
I had a friend with a 65 Corvette with the 327-365 engine, and I drove it and rode in it a number of times. My recollection is a very lumpy idle and a lot of clatter from the solid lifters. Do you remember that from that engine?

Unfortunately my memory isn't too great from those days. I had some idle problems which I attributed to the Holley which did give me fits. I don't remember significant lifter noise. Of course I was used to loose lifters in Studebakers. I guess, to tell you the truth, I wasn't particularly interested in the pedigree of the engine. The car was our daily driver. It's possible that Tommy overstated the hi-po degree, but he was pretty sharp on both Studebaker and later Avantis.