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Mrkelly
06-28-2016, 05:02 PM
Well it looks like there's two disk conversion kits out there for my 1963 Cruiser, the Turner kit and a kit from Hotrods & Brakes. I am looking for some reviews from people that have installed one of these kits on their vehicle. Please no product bashing just facts as too ease of install, quality of parts, instructions etc. Thanks for your help with this decision.

r1lark
06-28-2016, 05:13 PM
Installed a Turner kit on my Champ pickup. Very well made. I will tell you this however -- along with the kit comes the knowledge that Jim Turner has regarding disc brakes and master cylinders specifically on our Studebakers. There is a lot of value in that! If you have issues with the kit, or need recommendations for a master cylinder, or help with residual pressure valves, etc, Jim will be there and will answer your questions.

Mrkelly
06-28-2016, 05:49 PM
Thanks that is one of the things I have heard about the Turner Kit. I hope I can get someone to chime in about the Hotrods & Brakes kit.

JoeHall
06-28-2016, 06:55 PM
They are one in the same, in regards to install, initial setup and operation. Neither are any different from OEM disc brakes of the 70s-80s. If you find an inferior component, i.e. lines, just replace that component with a quality one. But I doubt you will find an inferior component in Turner's. Not sure about the other guy, but have not heard any comlaints. Either of those systems require a bit of extra pedal pressure, without a vacuum booster.

Mike Van Veghten
06-28-2016, 07:45 PM
I know three people that have the Hot Rods and Brakes kit. All very happy including myself.
Simple as it goes. Solid, work just fine and don't weigh 20lbs (roughly) each as another kit does. While not a "bad" kit, it's extremely over designed, and the scale shows it. Plus it's two parts rather than one (?).
They both perform equally well as far as the stopping part goes, but...
I've a kit similar to the Hot Rods and Brakes kit, been on my Lark for well over 12 years, it's my daily driver not a single problem.

Both kits use the same basic surrounding parts, all available at most any auto shop.

Mike

P.s. - The installation is NOT one and the same... The Hot Rods and Brakes caliper bracket is a single piece of material, the other kit is two pieces...two more fasteners to install torque and hope they don't come loose.

jclary
06-28-2016, 08:01 PM
,,,Either of those systems require a bit of extra pedal pressure, without a vacuum booster.


I have zero experience converting drum brakes to discs. But, I have given it some thought, and might sometime in the future. I have always assumed that discs were superior, safer, more dependable, and provided better performance in every way...including effort to apply them. Thinking about it, however, has made me realize that I have never owned a disc brake vehicle, without power brakes. Either combination of four wheel discs, or front discs/drum rear factory combinations on my earliest vehicles. That means, any vehicle I've ever had with discs was also a power brake system.

Therefore, the natural question to Joe's comment above, is Why? Is it because of the mathematical engineering fulcrum/lever ratio of the original manual brake pedal for manual drums? Or, is it due to using a drum master-cylinder, and the hydraulic pressure ratio of the larger diameter disc wheel cylinders cause the increased effort? I'm just trying to grasp an understanding of why a manual disc system would require more pedal effort. Honestly, I thought the opposite would happen.:confused:

r1lark
06-28-2016, 08:46 PM
I have never owned a disc brake vehicle, without power brakes

John, I've had several back in the '70s. I actually prefer a disc brake system without a power booster. I like the feel better. I for one would not have a concern about a properly chosen system (ie. wheel cylinder size, master cylinder size, etc) without a booster.

Mrkelly
06-28-2016, 09:23 PM
I have had people tell the kits are pretty much the same, yet on kit is $659.00 and the other is $525.00. What am I missing here? What would constitute a $134.00 difference in price?

53 Commander
06-28-2016, 10:29 PM
What kind of wheels did you use on your Champ with the Turner kit?

Ron Dame
06-29-2016, 06:25 AM
I kept the stock wheels with mu Turner kit. It required longer studs (Jim put them in) and 1/4" spacers for the clearance. And due to the size of the disks, there is no need for a booster. And that's with the inferior hanging pedals on a '63/'64.


What kind of wheels did you use on your Champ with the Turner kit?

r1lark
06-29-2016, 07:38 AM
I used Chevy van wheels, and adapted the Champ hub caps to them. See my blog entry for details: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/entry.php?24-63-Champ-Pickup-Chevy-15×6″-Wheels-with-Champ-Hubcaps

sweetolbob
06-29-2016, 08:14 AM
I have had people tell the kits are pretty much the same, yet on kit is $659.00 and the other is $525.00. What am I missing here? What would constitute a $134.00 difference in price?

Brackets are a lot more robust in the turner kit and Jim uses newer model calipers. Whether that's worth the difference is up to you. I purchased the bracket kit from Jim and sourced my own calipers, rotors etc. Probably came out about the $500 or so mark. Jim provides a list of parts on his site so see what you can do locally or Rock Auto etc.

I ran into an issue and Jim straightened it out in one email. Your money, your choice

Bob

karterfred88
06-29-2016, 10:32 AM
I personally can't vouch for either. My knowledge is limited to the forum postings regarding Jim's products and speaking to him at two meets. I haven't met a Hot Rods And Brakes representative at any meets, seen their product, nor have I heard anything about them till this thread. Looking only at the websites, I do note a price differential. However since only one tells you what you are buying, the other "instructions included with a list of parts needed to complete" I have no idea how to compare. I think they may be better known in Hot Rod circles than by us on this forum. As the old saying goes, your time, your money, your results may vary.

Mrkelly
06-29-2016, 01:31 PM
Thanks for all the input, I'll study this a little more before I purchase.

Mike Van Veghten
06-29-2016, 03:30 PM
IF...you do your homework and use the correct piston size in the master cylinder, NO booster is required.
Normally a Stude setup can get away with about a 1.00" piston, and require only two toes pressure to complete a "normal" stop.

Mike

JoeHall
06-29-2016, 05:20 PM
I kept the stock wheels with mu Turner kit. It required longer studs (Jim put them in) and 1/4" spacers for the clearance. And due to the size of the disks, there is no need for a booster. And that's with the inferior hanging pedals on a '63/'64.

Are those DBs on your Champ? If so, they are apples to oranges. My brother installed a Turner truck kit on his 2R pickup, and it has large Cadillac rotors, and early/larger GM calipers, and pads. It now has excellent braking. So Turner's truck kits are larger than his car kits which, I believe, use components from mid 60s Falcon or Mustang. But the smaller kits have less wheel clearance issues.

Our 63GT, has Turners' early kit (1990s) with, I believe, same components as his current kits, but the calipers mount forward of the king pins; he later moved them behind due to frame clearance issues. With hydrovac, and standard pedal (more fulcrum), they still require more pedal pressure than the DBs on my other two Hawks.

The other two Hawks have older, Levesky style kits, with 12" rotors, large GM calipers, modern "street performance" pads, and NO hydrovac. They stop like my daughter's Lexus, or mom's old Volvo 124. (R.I.P. mom.) But they still require more than, "two toes". LOL

The 6" wide steel wheels, with 3.75" backspacing, clear both kits, and will also clear Turner's current car kits.

Mcwicki51
06-29-2016, 05:42 PM
Has anyone installed the Turner Rear disc conversion kit for the Dana 44? My cruiser came with factory power front disc brakes. I thought that it would be neat to have a 4 disc set up with a wilwood MC on the stock booster using the Mopar 4bolt adapter plate.

I asked about the stock disc compatable wheels working with the rear drums, but I haven't heard back yet. I will update the thread once I do.

Thanks,
Steve

StudeRich
06-29-2016, 06:03 PM
Well Steve, it has been said before about Rear Discs on older posts you may not have seen so I'll say it again, even though it was not only me last time:

A Tire and Wheel assembly can only stop fast enough and hard enough to Lock and skid and the shortest stopping distance is gotten just short of that, so there is NO advantage to having all that complicated Parking Brake junk and special fitting to the Rear Axle, grinding parts to fit etc. etc., extra weight and Money spent for the "Bragging Rights" since there is no way you are going to stop any Faster. :ohmy:


You already have the perfect setup for a Larger more powerful Turner Disc Front conversion with the proper non-self-energizing Rear Brakes for Disc. not requiring an Equalizer Valve etc. with the Single Master Cyl. without a residual Valve, and a Bendix Master-Vac Power Brake booster, all ready to go when all rebuilt or Replaced.

My '64 Daytona Hardtop stops on a Dime with 9 1/2 Cents change with a feather touch, even with it's suspended Pedal System with less leverage than a Under Floor Master Cylinder, it is all Factory Stock Disc Brake except the Turner Front Disc Setup.

I do not know if the Original poster; Mrkelly has the Factory Disc Brake setup or not, but if he does, this would work well for him also.

And, it's always a Good thing to keep our Long Time SDC Members, Turning Wheels Advertisers and Forum Members like Jim Turner in Business. :)

JoeHall
06-29-2016, 07:30 PM
Well Steve, it has been said before about Rear Discs on older posts you may not have seen so I'll say it again, even though it was not only me last time:

A Tire and Wheel assembly can only stop fast enough and hard enough to Lock and skid and the shortest stopping distance is gotten just short of that, so there is NO advantage to having all that complicated Parking Brake junk and special fitting to the Rear Axle, grinding parts to fit etc. etc., extra weight and Money spent for the "Bragging Rights" since there is no way you are going to stop any Faster. :ohmy:


You already have the perfect setup for a Larger more powerful Turner Disc Front conversion with the proper non-self-energizing Rear Brakes for Disc. not requiring an Equalizer Valve etc. with the Single Master Cyl. without a residual Valve, and a Bendix Master-Vac Power Brake booster, all ready to go when all rebuilt or Replaced.

My '64 Daytona Hardtop stops on a Dime with 9 1/2 Cents change with a feather touch, even with it's suspended Pedal System with less leverage than a Under Floor Master Cylinder, it is all Factory Stock Disc Brake except the Turner Front Disc Setup.

I do not know if the Original poster; Mrkelly has the Factory Disc Brake setup or not, but if he does, this would work well for him also.

And, it's always a Good thing to keep our Long Time SDC Members, Turning Wheels Advertisers and Forum Members like Jim Turner in Business. :)

The Turner's in our above 63GT were installed by a PO, and we have put about 20,000 miles on the car since purchasing it. They are comparable to the factory DBs in another 63GT, we drove about 50,000 miles, till the wife wrecked it. I consider Turner's an upgrade for drum brake equipped Studes, but not for factory DBs, re: pedal pressure and stopping efficiency. The OEMs wear out pads a lot quicker though.

I have no idea what I am doing wrong with Stude brakes,. The only Stude I ever owned with anywhere near, "feather touch" or, "two toe" braking was a 56J with PB, and old school sintered bronze & asbestos shoes. They screeched like crazy, but definitely stopped the car. When it comes to Stude brakes, superlatives like the above sound like snake oil sales pitches of yesterdecade.

Any drum braked car can still benefit from DBs, due to the DB's inherent, "straight line stopping", as touted in Studebaker advertisements of the 1960s. I have never had a drum braked Stude that consistently straight line stopped, but never had a DB equipped one that did not.

Dan White
06-29-2016, 09:22 PM
My personal opinion is that the old Levesque kit was the best all round performer hands down. I have one on my '64 R1 Hawk with Hydrovac and with a light touch it will stop and NOW. It used '68 Ford LTD big 12" rotors that were a drop on the Stude spindles, no adapters or spacers required. Used Kelsey-Hayes calipers (Chrysler style) that were speced on cop cars and large Chryslers of the early 70s. It is an upgrade on either drum or Stude DB. The DB on my '64 R2 Hawk are have no where near the stopping power of the Levesque ones.

karterfred88
06-29-2016, 10:04 PM
My personal opinion is that the old Levesque kit was the best all round performer hands down. I have one on my '64 R1 Hawk with Hydrovac and with a light touch it will stop and NOW. It used '68 Ford LTD big 12" rotors that were a drop on the Stude spindles, no adapters or spacers required. Used Kelsey-Hayes calipers (Chrysler style) that were speced on cop cars and large Chryslers of the early 70s. It is an upgrade on either drum or Stude DB. The DB on my '64 R2 Hawk are have no where near the stopping power of the Levesque ones.
Unfortunately, Levesque sold out to Steel Tech, which in turn is gone apparently with a less than honorable end.

Mcwicki51
06-29-2016, 11:56 PM
Thank you all for your comments. Jim responded and recommended that I not use his rear disc installation because it would cause increased braking on the rear vs the front causing terrible braking that could be dangerous. He also shared that he is going to have surgery. I hope that everyone would send positive energy and well wishes. I truly appreciate his honesty and quick response. I love this group of Studebaker owners and vendors. Thank you!

Steve

stude dude
06-30-2016, 02:16 AM
Well it looks like there's two disk conversion kits out there for my 1963 Cruiser, the Turner kit and a kit from Hotrods & Brakes. I am looking for some reviews from people that have installed one of these kits on their vehicle. Please no product bashing just facts as too ease of install, quality of parts, instructions etc. Thanks for your help with this decision.

Nonsense!

There are two vastly superior kits using the original Studebaker hubs (i.e: no spacers on the spindle) currently being marketed in Australia which are easy to fit, have excellent stopping power and are very reasonably priced.

Email me for pricing information, photos, shipping quotes, technical support, etc - chris@studeparts.com.au

Chris.

Dan White
06-30-2016, 05:32 AM
Dave Levesque renamed his parts company Steeltech, not sold out. But he has gone off the grid for good.

doofus
06-30-2016, 05:38 AM
Thanks everyone,discovered i have a Levesque kit on shelf. after clean-up and rebuild it will go on wifes '57 Silver Hawk, Mr. Rumbles. She is bad to run up to a stop sign and hit brakes at last minute. Hawk has all new brake system but D/B on front would give me peace of mind while riding with her. also have small remote booster i might add to front brakes,wondering if this would offset non DB rear brakes? any advice is appreciated and yes i hope my results will vary! Doofus

JoeHall
06-30-2016, 07:29 AM
Unfortunately, Levesque sold out to Steel Tech, which in turn is gone apparently with a less than honorable end.

I heard the name was changed to, "Steal Tech". Still waiting on the rotors for the set I bought from him 8-10 years ago.

I grew from the experience though, since I had to reverse engineer to figure out the correct rotors to get, once mine were obviously not coming. They are from late 1960s to early 1970s full size FoMoCo. I found a seal that fit those rotors to the Stude spindles perfectly, and used an extra washer on the outer bearing to locate the axle nut properly.

I agree with Dan White, its an excellent system. Too bad the owner decided to start ripping buyers off. A "less than honorable end" is too kind, IMHO.

Dan White
06-30-2016, 09:39 AM
I was one of the lucky ones. I bought several items from Dave Levesque over the years and he did two sets of R-heads with Chevy valve conversions for me. Frankly, I don't think Dave was truly dishonest but just could not manage the growth of his business. He seemed to not write anything down, and when he got in over his head he did not know what he was doing and did not know who bought what or what. It was really a bad situation for many involved and in the end he closed up and for good reasons. He did some of the first kits for aftermarket Studebaker stuff and it really helped in the early days, but .........

Ron Dame
06-30-2016, 05:48 PM
Indeed it is on my Champ. And I am very happy with the results.

Are those DBs on your Champ? If so, they are apples to oranges. My brother installed a Turner truck kit on his 2R pickup, and it has large Cadillac rotors, and early/larger GM calipers, and pads. It now has excellent braking. So Turner's truck kits are larger than his car kits which, I believe, use components from mid 60s Falcon or Mustang. But the smaller kits have less wheel clearance issues.

Our 63GT, has Turners' early kit (1990s) with, I believe, same components as his current kits, but the calipers mount forward of the king pins; he later moved them behind due to frame clearance issues. With hydrovac, and standard pedal (more fulcrum), they still require more pedal pressure than the DBs on my other two Hawks.

The other two Hawks have older, Levesky style kits, with 12" rotors, large GM calipers, modern "street performance" pads, and NO hydrovac. They stop like my daughter's Lexus, or mom's old Volvo 124. (R.I.P. mom.) But they still require more than, "two toes". LOL

The 6" wide steel wheels, with 3.75" backspacing, clear both kits, and will also clear Turner's current car kits.

doofus
06-30-2016, 08:52 PM
Joe Hall would you remember that seal no. i have lost all my old paper catalogs and the "Fart Can" generation is totally lost. Thanks Doofus

JoeHall
07-01-2016, 03:44 AM
Joe Hall would you remember that seal no. i have lost all my old paper catalogs and the "Fart Can" generation is totally lost. Thanks Doofus
I am currently abroad, but will look it up and post it here when I return. I posted it here before, so you may be able to find it in the archives. Its a hybrid, National seal, not FoMoCo.

sweetolbob
07-01-2016, 12:56 PM
I am currently abroad, but will look it up and post it here when I return. I posted it here before, so you may be able to find it in the archives. Its a hybrid, National seal, not FoMoCo.

Try National 473010. I have a Levesque/Steeltec set on my 83 Avanti that was purchased circa 07/08 that was in-place when I purchased the car. Actual rotors Bendix 141025, apparently from a 69 Ford Galaxie. I have the complete paperwork that came with them, not a lot, but all there.

Bob

JoeHall
07-01-2016, 07:00 PM
Try National 473010. I have a Levesque/Steeltec set on my 83 Avanti that was purchased circa 07/08 that was in-place when I purchased the car. Actual rotors Bendix 141025, apparently from a 69 Ford Galaxie. I have the complete paperwork that came with them, not a lot, but all there.

Bob

Yep, that's the one. I remembered I had created a document and listed all related info there.

Bob, I still have the Leveski mounts I believe I bought from you. They are in the round2it file for the 63GT. I may leave that car's hydrovac hooked up, at least initially, to see how it works with those brakes. It may indeed turn it into a "two toe" setup ;)

doofus
07-02-2016, 06:28 AM
After all that i'm not certain of anything but the heat! found seal, national 473235,fit's 11in century rotor pn.617082.possibly ford ranger as there is provision for speed sensor in hub. mopar caliper casting no.0888 on back. adapter bracket is 5 hole chunk of iron that will need some work as not a good fit to caliper bracket. this all came off a parted out Avanti from decades back. any idea's welcome as Momma needs better brakes for her driver 57. might copy adapter for "Future Reference" as i have other Projects that could benefit from DB. Thanks All, Doofus

sweetolbob
07-02-2016, 02:06 PM
After all that i'm not certain of anything but the heat! found seal, national 473235,fit's 11in century rotor pn.617082.possibly ford ranger as there is provision for speed sensor in hub. mopar caliper casting no.0888 on back. adapter bracket is 5 hole chunk of iron that will need some work as not a good fit to caliper bracket. this all came off a parted out Avanti from decades back. any idea's welcome as Momma needs better brakes for her driver 57. might copy adapter for "Future Reference" as i have other Projects that could benefit from DB. Thanks All, Doofus

Is this the Avanti adapter you are dealing with?

55955

Just a thought but might it not be easier for repair in the future to by the adapters from Jim and source the parts where you can find the best discount? The Mustang rotors go for $30-35/ea and the calipers S-10 $25 or so without deposit at Rock Auto.

Bob

doofus
07-03-2016, 06:43 AM
Believe those are factory D/B adapters. what i have are nothing like that.once i find a Century rotor catalog i'll know what rotor's i have for future reference.473235 Nat. seal does job so i have everything to do the install,,,, except time! thanks Doofus

r1lark
07-03-2016, 07:05 AM
Believe those are factory D/B adapters. what i have are nothing like that.

Agree, those are factory caliper brackets, not Dave Levesque's or Jim Turner's brackets.

JoeHall
07-03-2016, 07:36 AM
Believe those are factory D/B adapters. what i have are nothing like that.once i find a Century rotor catalog i'll know what rotor's i have for future reference.473235 Nat. seal does job so i have everything to do the install,,,, except time! thanks Doofus

Not sure which rotors or spindles you plan to run. The seal you listed is .121 larger OD, and .061 larger ID than the seal that fit mine. The OD difference could be due to different rotors; I am running late 1960s to early 1970s full size FoMoCo, 12" rotors, AutoZone #5405.

I did not know Stude used different size spindles, which would require a different ID seal though. Unless you are mounting yours on a truck maybe?

sweetolbob
07-03-2016, 07:59 AM
Agree, those are factory caliper brackets, not Dave Levesque's or Jim Turner's brackets.

I have both Turner and Levesque brackets on my cars so I know what those and Avanti brackets look like, I was just trying to figure out what Doodus's brackets looked like and posted the Avanti ones for reference as he said his came from an Avanti.

I'm still interested in his brackets so we'll know what they look like as I adapted a set of Speedway cast/forged brackets from a streetrod kit to my 54K before all the others mentioned above were available.

Might just be kinda handy for future reference but what do I know?

Bob

bensherb
05-30-2017, 05:18 PM
Try National 473010. I have a Levesque/Steeltec set on my 83 Avanti that was purchased circa 07/08 that was in-place when I purchased the car. Actual rotors Bendix 141025, apparently from a 69 Ford Galaxie. I have the complete paperwork that came with them, not a lot, but all there.

Bob

Hi Bob, do you know what calipers are used on the Levesque set up with the Galaxie rotors. My dad has that set up on his '53 and the pads need replacing. Thanks, Rick

Dan White
05-30-2017, 05:22 PM
Refer to instruction set posted in this thread:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?100944-Disc-Brake-Conversion-Question-Wilwood

JoeHall
05-30-2017, 05:40 PM
Hi Bob, do you know what calipers are used on the Levesque set up with the Galaxie rotors. My dad has that set up on his '53 and the pads need replacing. Thanks, Rick

My name is not Bob, but I will offer an answer: For calipers, AutoZone part# C110 and C111, for 1971-76 Impala work best. They have 7/16" x 20 threaded banjo bolts, whereas the others have 3/8" x 16 threaded. Can also use 79-91 Chevy Suburban 2WD calipers, and several other year GM, but all except the 71-76 Impala have the 3/8" bolts. I suppose calipers are a non-issue for your dad though, since his is already set up.

For pads to fit the calipers, I use Hawk brand, in their HPS (High Performance Street) series, part #HB103. But you can just go to FLAPS and order whatever you prefer, for 79-91 Suburban 2WD, or 71-76 Impala. It is a very common pad, till today.

bensherb
05-30-2017, 10:37 PM
Thanks, but he said he thought the calipers were from a Dodge or Chrysler, but no idea what model or year. He's sure they're not from GM.

Dan White
05-31-2017, 05:20 AM
They are probably from 1973 Chrysler Newport. Please check my previous post on the other thread.