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60Stude
06-14-2016, 09:54 PM
I've been away from here for a while but have gained traction again on my '60 Lark V8 wagon project. I am determined to have it on the road again this summer. I'm in the midst of doing an engine reseal job. Everything that can leak oil leaks oil!

I successfully pulled the pan off and replaced the rear main seal (what a job with the engine still in the car!).

Now I need to put the pan back on. I read the shop manual, and don't see described how to do the oil pan cork side gaskets and the front/rear cork gaskets. I want to make sure I do this properly. The shop manual describes putting some sort of a block on either side of the installed main cap, then tapping it in or something along that line. It appears the rear pan gasket has changed since the manual was written.

My question is: Do the side pan gasket tabs go into the groove in the rear main cap and the front cover extension first, then do the rear pan and front pan cork seals go in on top of them? Do I put a dab of RTV where the two gaskets meet? It looks like that will work but I'm not sure. The thickness of the pan gasket in the cap groove does not allow the rear gasket to seat fully in in the cap groove. Do I need to trim one end so it lays in there properly? Or will the pan squish it in the groove OK once I bolt the pan up.

Any advice you all have to help me do this properly is appreciated.

Kind regards,
Mike

doofus
06-15-2016, 07:21 AM
Hey mike, is the timing cover/ filler block on or off. if off, gasket goes under filler block at front. form cork schtick to filler block with tape and glue in place. at rear cork blocks fill space at corners of rear main cap.I have always used silicone here, also a thin smear under main cap at cap to block seam. rear cork stick,hold up and look at end,the narrow side needs to be worked into the cap groove, i use a blunted screwdriver. a dab of silicone at all4 corners is good insurance. i always offset the rear main seal joint a bit and put a dab of sealer on ends, rubber spaghetti seals i glue in as i cut them off the seal when offsetting joint. i have done many in frame jobs like yours and being careful is good advice. if front cork seal crawls out you used wrong stuff. it needs to be GLUED in place, or a prick punch is used to raise tiny teeth in metal of filler to help hold it in place.2 of my "Flock" are turbocharged and don't suffer any leaks so i must be doing right. get started early cause its gonna be a hot one where you are at.we will be that way in aug. so i will check your work,LOL. Good Luck, Doofus

TWChamp
06-15-2016, 07:28 AM
I tuck the pan rail gasket ends into the groove, then install the end cork over the side gaskets.
I often have to trim the cork a little.
Just before I bolt the pan in place I put a dab of silicone gasket maker in the 4 corners where the gaskets meet.

60Stude
06-15-2016, 07:36 PM
Doofus, I have he filler block and timing cover are presently off. I did have the timing cover was on but I had to drop the crank quite a bit to get the pressure off the old rear main seal. It had become one with the block and was hard as rock. I had bad oil loss there and the front crank seal as well. It took a lot of careful prying and hammering with a brass drift to get that old seal out. . . didn't want to gouge the crank of course!

I'll take your advice on gluing the front seal down to the filler block, I thought about doing that because I could see probable issues with that wanting to come out while putting the pan on. My go to for that kind of problem is 3M black weatherstrip adhesive. What do you think about using that? I was going to go old school and use Indian Head on the side gaskets like I usually do on my other old cars using cork gaskets. I went rogue and did what you already said with offsetting the rear main seal ends and using some silicone on those ends too.

Yes I'm rethinking the inframe job with all the labor involved removing the steering components to drop the pan, and just the whole laying on my 55 year old back and I'm like 6'5" so my long arms don't fit up into that area easily. If I didn't have to go borrow a cherry picker I probably would have pulled the engine, it would have been much easier!

Yes I was waiting for some responses before hitting it again tonight. I permanently mounted an evaporative cooler (aka swamp cooler) through the wall in my garage years ago, so when it's 95 out I'm working in a nice 75-78 degree environment. The only thing that could possibly be better would be opening the French doors on my patio and rolling her into the living room, but my wife might frown upon that ;) If you're rollling through in August, give me a ring or send a text and I'll take you for a ride in her 505-247-7027. She WILL be running/driving by then!

Thanks for all your help, it's duly appreciated!

60Stude
06-15-2016, 07:46 PM
Thanks TWChamp, that's exactly what I wanted to know. I was confused by what I read in the shop manual about tapping cork blocks into those grooves, that's one of the few pictures of this job. And no mention of the tabs on the side rail pan gaskets. So I figured something has changed with modern gaskets. So I stopped until I got some advice. As difficult as this job has been I don't want to do it twice. It had horrible oil loss, I would use about a quart of oil on a hour's drive and that was just putzing around town, it was awful on the highway. One of the reasons I stopped driving it in 1996. I questioned trimming the ends too but I can see the arched area will pop out if I don't with those tabs tucked in. I'll trim carefully as I see the ends are canted slightly so they lay flat in the groove.

I told Doofus I was going to use Indian Head on the side pan gaskets as I usually do on all my old vehicles using cork gaskets. I figure if it was good enough 50 years ago it's still appropriate. I avoid silicone on such areas. What is your opinion?

Thanks a lot for your help!

Mike

doofus
06-16-2016, 07:43 AM
Hey mike, Indian Head will work if you let it set before pan install Black 3M is good stuff, my book picture of cork block install shows drift,hammer, hand and rest is blacked out by time? if car is on stands keeping it level will help,used a piece of large brass brazing rod to drive out main seal. They bond themselves quite well to block! on some models 4 long studs were used in corners to help align pan then all short bolts started and studs replaced with proper length bolts ( Machine Screws, Cap Screws , Fasteners) watch Cork Sticks as pan is tightened. be careful not to over tighten side rail screws, if cork, snug bolts only,1/4 drive works great here. Funny story, in 90's working in Nat Guard shop replacing head gaskets on 2 1/2 ton truck in cramped quarters, got drunk, seriously drunk on Indian head gasket shellac and had to be sent home!!! Luck Doofus

doofus
06-17-2016, 07:33 AM
Did you remember to install crank hub in timing cover then on to crank? i have a home made pusher to install hub on crank if needed pm me. see ya in Aug! Doofus

doofus
06-18-2016, 02:01 PM
60stude if you get in a bind you are welcome to PM me, Doofus

StudeRich
06-19-2016, 02:33 AM
Mike, I think part of your confusion about how to assemble those Rear Main Cap side Corks may be that your Main Seal did NOT come with them, we have been hearing stories of some Seal Kits being shorted at FelPro.

So before the Pan Side Gasket Tabs go into the sides of the Main Cap, you would have to fill in the Engine Block recess with tiny pieces of Cork (maybe cut off of the ends of the Rear Oil Pan Arch Gasket) a scrap piece of Pan Side Gasket or some Silicone if you do not have the little Cork blocks.

60Stude
06-22-2016, 06:36 PM
I'm about to head back to the garage to work on the wagon (it's only 99 today but thankfully I have a swamp cooler keeping my garage at a nice 80 degrees :) ) and thought I'd check on my newest advice.

Thanks for the advice Doofus and StudeRich on the cork blocks, I'll look in the box again but I don't think there's any in there. i'll either make some out of some gasket material I have or use some silicone. I'll probably go ahead with the 3M super weatherstrip adhesive to glue the cork sticks down good. I'll be mindful torking down the pan bolts so the gasket doesn't squish out.

I have a balancer pusher we used while assembling my son's big block Chevy for his Nova, I think it will work fine to put the crank hub back on.

I'll let ya's know how it goes!

Mike

BILT4ME
06-22-2016, 06:48 PM
I recently did this on mine. I placed a small dab of The Right Stuff BLACK in the hole first, then the cork piece (note that they are two different sizes), then a small dab of TRS on top of the cork square just prior to installing the pan. I used the cork gaskets from Studebaker International and I had a tough time forcing the large cork gasket into the notch on the rear main cap. I did end up trimming off about 41/8" from each end of the cork seal because it was not only NOT cut square, but it was WAY too long. I also trimmed a bit off the FRONT cork seal to make sure it would seal on the timing cover.

I used The Right Stuff BLACK at EVERY seal joint. It has a higher oil/fuel resistance than Permatex Ultra Black. The only downside is that it sets within 5 minutes.

Don't forget to flatten the edge of the oil pan bolt holes so the sealing surface is FLAT and not dimpled at each bolt hole of the pan.

I also changed out the front seal to a lip seal (not as neat and clean as I would have liked it!) but I just drove 2642 miles and NO LEAKS! (and yes, it still has oil in it!)

If you are doing the valve seals, do NOT use the Ford seals as recommended on another thread. They require a tapered valve guide and the ones on a Stude are NOT. My cars now burns MORE oil than it ever has (1 QT per tank of gas) because I believe the valve stem seal had pushed their way UP the valve guides and are no longer doing their job. Next time I will install the standard ones with the kit.

doofus
06-23-2016, 07:34 AM
BILT4ME NAPA carries a positive stem seal with a steel band at bottom that will grip a Stude tapered guide,BTDT luck Doofus

60Stude
09-04-2016, 10:55 PM
I thought it might be time to check in on this thread. Since my June post, I got the rear main seal in just fine and the oil pan back on just fine with everyone's help, new valve cover gaskets on too. So all that works should (hopefully) reduce the oil leaks substantially. I replaced my front engine mounts but need to do the rear mounts on the bellhousing. I have the mounts. I tried changing them years ago and had problems. IIRC, I unbolted them and raised the rear of the engine and trans and could not get them out so I gave up. I have since bought a shop manual and was looking at it today but in the engine mount section it does not say anything about how to change them with the engine in the car.

Is there anything special I need to know to change the rear engine mounts out? I plan on doing this job tomorrow.

Mike

StudeRich
09-05-2016, 02:39 AM
Yes Mike there are a few things to watch for:
When raising only the Rear of the Engine, watch the Fan Blades, turn them to Left & Right rather Top & Bottom or better yet remove the Fan to protect your Radiator.

Make sure there is enough slack in anything that connects from the Engine to the Body, Throttle Linkage, Shift Linkage, any added Oil Pressure Gauge Flex Line or wires, Exhaust Pipes etc. or disconnect them.

If you can't raise it enough to do Both Mounts at once, try one side at a time, this will require loosening the New Front Mounts, but do not disconnect them.

60Stude
03-28-2017, 12:19 AM
Hi everyone. Well here I am back again. Trying to get this car running in the next month. I'm getting closer!

Since my last post, I was able to get the rear engine mounts installed and they went right in. So I'm not sure what I tried to do years ago when I attempted to replace them other than I'm 20 years older now and have more patience.

I bought a new stock dual exhaust system from Parks Pipes and it's all installed.

I'm in the midst of cleaning up the engine bay and repainting everything. I could not believe how much gunk was in the front crossmember! Between the front crankshaft and front of the oil pan leaking, and the power steering ram leaking, it was just thick with goo. I have spent a number of hours cleaning all that out. I have moved to the top of the engine. With everything down under resealed and new valve cover gaskets I decided it was stupid not to replace the valley cover gasket. So I pulled the intake last night and oh my, what a mess! I've scraped and cleaned and scraped more and think I have found the valley cover and the top of the heads!

My question: Is there a way to get rid of the draft tube, and install a PCV valve? I searched the forums and can't seem to find where anyone talks about doing this. I was thinking if i can get rid of the draft tube it would make things stay cleaner in general. Any advice anyone has from doing this is greatly appreciated.

Mike

jackb
03-28-2017, 09:58 AM
your engine bay shouldn't get dirty if you've attended to all the seals and have a nicely working plant. The road draft tube goes to the "road", not the engine bay. If you have leaks or significant "blow-by" even a working PCV system won't help.

StudebakerGene
03-28-2017, 03:29 PM
63111

I hooked my road draft tube back into the air cleaner and re-processed it, seems to work great on my R1

60Stude
03-28-2017, 07:23 PM
Thanks for your reply jackb. I'm aware that the draft tube goes to the road, and that it won't keep the engine bay clean. I'm looking to "make things stay cleaner in general". The draft tube attracts dirt and creates grime under the car and i'd like that to stay cleaner than it has been. I got rid of the draft tube on my '57 Ford and went to an open PCV system and my truck stays very clean underneath now. :)

60Stude
03-28-2017, 07:25 PM
Hi StudebakerGene. Thanks for your reply. I wish your attachment went through but I can't seem to open it. I was thinking about doing something like that. Just hunting for ideas and not having to reinvent the wheel if it's been done before, you know? ;)

StudebakerGene
03-28-2017, 09:52 PM
63115

maybe this will post....I got tired of the draft tube also, you can see it following the firewall, works fine!

StudeRich
03-29-2017, 04:00 AM
The Ford "Y" blocks had a really bad tendency to sludge up in the Valley (Lifter Area) this caused the Draft Tube which had it's own rather large Filter in it to also clog and become FULL of Oil.

I can understand your concern, but THIS '60 Lark 259 is a STUDEBAKER!

You will not have a dirty lower Engine on a Stude. unless your Timing Cover Seal does not do it's job as some over time, will drip/pour some Oil unless replaced with a Neoprene positive seal conversion.

So don't worry about that Draft tube, with a proper Gasket from it to the Lifter Cover and on the L/C Screws it will be fine.
Studebaker Lifter Covers are well baffled inside to prevent that and the draft tubes have or can have NO filter to clog up.
Early Model V8's had wire mesh stuffed in the end and a cotter pin through the tube to hold it, that was later removed, so if you have it, remove it.

If you can find the proper adapter for the Lifter Cover to PCV Hose or make one out of the old draft tube you COULD install a PCV System, but either way, there should be no Oil coming out unless the Rings, Valve Guides or Valves are beyond repair.

altair
03-30-2017, 10:50 AM
I have seen some moderate to high performance engines with the draft fitted in to the exhaust pipe or header. Every thing stays clean and the unwanted gases go out the tail pipe.

altair
03-31-2017, 11:21 PM
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