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sbca96
10-02-2006, 05:58 PM
Has anyone dabbled in any of the Ebay headlights? I am thinking about a
set of "halo" headlights for my Avanti. Since the Avanti is euro, I think I
can get away with it better then some 57 Chevys and 69 Camaros I have
seen with them on. I also think with the plastic lense cover, it will look like
a factory thing, bringing my Avanti even further updated. Here is a link to
the lights I have found - and the price is right.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/7-INCH-ROUND-UNIVERSAL-HALO-PROJECTOR-HEAD-LIGHTS-LAMPS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33710QQihZ008QQitemZ180033879088QQrdZ1QQsspagen ameZWDVW

http://www.symmicauto.com/images/auto/4515-2.gif

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

sbca96
10-02-2006, 07:01 PM
FYI : They dont just keep blinking like that, its for display. This
style light is quite popular on the show circuit. If you look at my
Ryon Park pics, the white 69 Camaro has them, and so does a 57 Chevy
at both Ryon Park and the JR's hangout. They were the basic light,
without the halo. They are factory on BMWs, and the new Camaro with
single headlights is going to have them in 2009.;)

Tom

rockne10
10-02-2006, 08:51 PM
By "updating" do you mean brighter and, therefore, safer than standard halogens, or are these just the obnoxious blue things we see coming at us from time to time?

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
33 Rockne 10
51 Commander Starlight
53 Commander Starlight
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/51x2.jpg
previously: 63 Cruiser, 62 Regal VI, 60 VI convertible, 50 LandCruiser

N8N
10-02-2006, 09:46 PM
I'm not aware of any "angel eyes" headlights that I'd consider good quality in a 7" round format (what you need) and there's a lot of junk on the market aimed at the "ricer" crowd. Unfortunately, I'm having issues with my new connection - for some reason I can access EVERYTHING on the web, except the most popular search engine - so I'm not really ina position to look for you, but I'd personally stick with known good brands like Cibie or Hella.

I believe I've mentioned before that I'm just running the standard Cibie 7" round reflectors on my Porsche (what you'd use for an Avanti) and they are quite simply the most incredible headlights I've ever driven behind. They don't look flashy but they darn sure get the job done. I've also added a relay harness to feed them straight alternator voltage, and they seem to like it. I plan a similar upgrade for the '55.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
10-03-2006, 02:40 AM
Nate, these are pretty good quality as far as I can tell, & the price
is pretty darn good. Here is the text from the ad :

7" Round Halo Rim Projector Headlights w/Super White H4
Manufactured by ISO Certified Auto Light Manufacturer
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*Price is for One Brand New Set of 2 Pieces, Left & Right
*Diamond-cut Chrome Housing, Halo, Clear Projector & Euro Clear Lens
Cover
*Bulb-replaceable Design, no more Light Housing Changing, just Replace Bulbs
*Comes with all new bulbs, H4 60/55W P43T Type White Light ones (blue lens)
*100% Glass Lenses
*Rare with unique look-comes with a built-in parking light. You can connect it to your existing parking lights or leave it disconnected
*Same as shown in Pictures
*Durable with highest quality
*Street Legal

Rockne, they are brighter then halogens, and are supposed to have a
better pattern, especially off to the sides, which I need to spot deer
on my commute home at night (which I do on Fridays with the Avanti).
Having seen what a small deer will do to an 80's Camaro, I would hate
to find out what one stuffed in the radiator of an Avanti is like!
They are not the "blue" lights, they state "super white". Its an idea
I am toying with, after seeing a few show cars that didnt have an euro
look at all (which they looked 'interesting' on).

By "updated" I mean modern, the projector lights are hear to stay, its
on just about every higher end car out right now. I wasnt too sure on
single headlight projectors with halos until I saw the '09 Camaro. Im
not a fan of the style of the front end, but the lights interest me:

http://www.planetcamaro.com/ccimages/19.jpg

Tom

Mike
10-03-2006, 08:20 AM
Cibie "Z" beams, with 130/90 bulbs will definitely light up the side of the road, where the deer come out of nowhere. Maybe you'll even find the lost fuel pump bolt! The sharp "Z" cut off limits light high and to the left; so you don't blind oncoming traffic; although there will be some scatter with the plastic covers. There are reproductions sold on ebay for $40 a pair. Maybe they will sell them with the high power bulbs.
I've gone way overboard on wire size, in the past; and that's what most people recommend. All the assessories and lights in a stock Avanti are fed by a single 12# wire.
With the most powerful bulbs available, on high beam, each headlight is a 10 amp circuit. I'll be converting my Avanti and plan to run individual 14# wires to each headlight, from the dimmer switch. I'll probably run new 14# grounds to the engine block. I'll use one 30A relay, and one 30A breaker to feed the dimmer switch from the battery side of the stock 20A headlight breaker. Maybe I'll rewire the charging circuit with 10# wire.
Mike M.

N8N
10-03-2006, 08:56 AM
Mike,

rather than do that, why don't you use a pair of relays, one for high and one for low beam, and take the power for the relays right off the voltage regulator? Less wiring that way and also you don't have to worry about the condition of the contacts in the dimmer switch, it becomes basically a low current control switch now.

In my '55, as I'm desiging this in my head, I think I'm going to take a pair of 12 AWG off the back of the alternator (I've converted to a 10SI so no external regulator) mount a plate in place of the stock regulator (in my car, just in front of the alternator, so it's a convenient place) and mount two Hella fused fog light relays on it. Then some 16 AWG from the stock junction block on the fan shroud to trigger the relays, and 12 AWG returning to another added terminal strip on the fan shroud to hook up the headlights. I might rewire the headlight buckets with 12 AWG and separate grounds as well... couldn't hurt; the stock buckets just ground through the mounting screws to the fender, I'm guessing a ground to the alternator case would be an improvement.

The way I'm envisioning this, the only irreversable mod to the car would be two additional holes in the fan shroud, so if anyone ever wanted to restore the car, it wouldn't be that difficult to put it "right" (although I'm not sure why you'd want to.) Obviously my mounting locations would not work for an Avanti but I just figured I'd throw this out there to see if you could think of something similar to do. Maybe mounting the relays on the inner fender below the battery?

I concur that the "Z-beams" were awesome headlights, unfortunately I don't think they make them any more, I am running whatever E-codes Cibie was selling as of about 2 years ago. They're still awesome. I've also heard that (believe it or not) the "Zelmot" brand lights were pretty good and a lot cheaper, but I haven't tried them. I know JC Whitney used to sell them as motorcycle headlights, but am not sure if they still do or have substituted something cheaper and less functional.

good luck,

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

63Avanti
10-03-2006, 12:04 PM
One more time,
are these the good bright lamps,
or those faked out blue things




quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Nate, these are pretty good quality as far as I can tell, & the price
is pretty darn good. Here is the text from the ad :

7" Round Halo Rim Projector Headlights w/Super White H4
Manufactured by ISO Certified Auto Light Manufacturer
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*Price is for One Brand New Set of 2 Pieces, Left & Right
*Diamond-cut Chrome Housing, Halo, Clear Projector & Euro Clear Lens
Cover
*Bulb-replaceable Design, no more Light Housing Changing, just Replace Bulbs
*Comes with all new bulbs, H4 60/55W P43T Type White Light ones (blue lens)
*100% Glass Lenses
*Rare with unique look-comes with a built-in parking light. You can connect it to your existing parking lights or leave it disconnected
*Same as shown in Pictures
*Durable with highest quality
*Street Legal

Rockne, they are brighter then halogens, and are supposed to have a
better pattern, especially off to the sides, which I need to spot deer
on my commute home at night (which I do on Fridays with the Avanti).
Having seen what a small deer will do to an 80's Camaro, I would hate
to find out what one stuffed in the radiator of an Avanti is like!
They are not the "blue" lights, they state "super white". Its an idea
I am toying with, after seeing a few show cars that didnt have an euro
look at all (which they looked 'interesting' on).

By "updated" I mean modern, the projector lights are hear to stay, its
on just about every higher end car out right now. I wasnt too sure on
single headlight projectors with halos until I saw the '09 Camaro. Im
not a fan of the style of the front end, but the lights interest me:

http://www.planetcamaro.com/ccimages/19.jpg

Tom



Terry,
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065 http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202 (Diesel)
2000 VW Jetta GLS

sbca96
10-03-2006, 12:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by tsterkel


One more time,
are these the good bright lamps,
or those faked out blue things

[quote]Originally posted by sbca96
7" Round Halo Rim Projector Headlights w/Super White H4
*Diamond-cut Chrome Housing, Halo, Clear Projector & Euro Clear Lens
Cover
*Comes with all new bulbs, H4 60/55W P43T Type White Light ones (blue lens)
Rockne, they are brighter then halogens, and are supposed to have a
better pattern, especially off to the sides.....They are not the "blue" lights, they state "super white".

Thats all the info I have on them, and I wont know for sure until I
order them. Total cost will be about 40 bucks, and if the halos look
dumb, I can always leave them unhooked. I am not as sure about this
as I was the rims, but the investment is considerably less.

There is a harness available for mustangs :

http://www.karmustang.com/halogen_headlight_kit.php

And Painless wiring makes one (90 bucks though) :

http://www.performanceproducts4trucks.com/ProductPage.aspx?pid=110695

This looks like the best deal, and free shipping :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AMC%2D509102

$48.39

Prevent a meltdown.High-wattage bulbs can fry your stock light switch. These APC wiring harness kits include a special relay system that'll prevent a meltdown.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/amc-509102_w.jpg

Tom

N8N
10-03-2006, 01:41 PM
I'd stay away from APC; they are the company that makes all those s**tty aftermarket taillights, headlight covers, cheezy pedal covers, etc. for the ricer crowd.

I would recommend RIK-2 from:

http://danielsternlighting.com/products/products.html

Daniel is a little crusty and short with people he considers clueless, but he sells the goods. I got my own relay harness and lights from the sadly late Dan Wray, but AFAIK the stuff Daniel Stern sells is comparable/may be the same.

good luck,

nate



--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
10-03-2006, 03:00 PM
Daniels stuff looks nice, but more of a do-it-yourself kit, it says
that the wires are not included?? Just because something is made for
the "ricer crowd" (which I dont care for either) doesnt automatically
mean its crap. Where have you read it was poor quality? I am only
asking, the price being half as much as the Painless, makes me suspect,
so you are probably right. I guess I need to google some reviews.

Tom

N8N
10-03-2006, 03:06 PM
I think I checked the APC wiring out at a swap meet once, it was 16 AWG if I remember correctly, which would only give you a marginal improvement over stock. I do know that the harness I have which is all 12 AWG or heavier gives me a full 14.1V at my headlights in the Porsche which is actually higher than I get at the lighter socket. It's a beautiful thing. I don't think the lack of wire is a show stopper; I feel better using wiring that I've soldered and heat shrinked myself anyway, and I can wrap it in the old black harness tape to keep it stock-ish looking. I've got several boat stores and auto parts stores that will sell me good wire in various colors nearby. Even better, one of my favorite local chains has a location within walking distance of my new place, just discovered that last night :)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
10-03-2006, 05:12 PM
Well Nate .. its confession time on MY part. I am solder-impaired. I
can NOT solder worth beans. If my life depended on it, I might be
able to get the solder to stick, but usually it just goes everywhere
but WHERE I am trying to solder. So for me, I would rather buy one
that has been done for me, at least I know the soldering will last.
16 gauge isnt too bad, Daniel states that 18 is usually factory. Even
20 is found in some cases.

The Olds guys seem to like the APC kit.
http://www.oldspower.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18012

Here is the APC website :

http://www.performancestyleattitude.com/home.htm

Tom

Mike
10-03-2006, 06:16 PM
I've used two relays, like Nate describes, before. It's the way most people wire their lights up. I like the simplicity of one relay rather than two. I don't like running two 12# or even 10# wires to the 1/4" QD terminal on the commonly used headlight relays. I'm not familiar with the Hella version. What type fuse does it use?
The dimmer switch is probably heavy enough, electrically and mechanically, to use as I plan. I have an old one I may open up, to check. I think Rock Auto sells the shell with removable contacts for the connector plug.
I want to mount the relay and breaker on a panel next to the stock fuse box, with as few wires running to them as possible. I'm trying to use components that were available in the '60's.
I have a pair of "Z" beams, from the early '70's. If the reflectors are shot, I'll try the reproductions from ebay.
The plans for your '55 sound neat. Hiding the relays in a voltage regulator cover and getting power directly from the alternator seems like a natural. I remember the terminal strip on the fan shroud for the lights.
About '68, I was using Lucas headlamps on my '57 Stude. They were the type with an internal bulb shield mounted on three bars, with the Lucas logo on a black button in the center. The originals have a lot more class than the imitations that seem to have become popular! I switched to QH bulbs, when they became available. I used much better Cibie and Hella lamps on subsequent "furin" cars. European lights, and good advice, were available from Eugene Shymeister, (sp?), at "Apogee Enterprises", in the '60's and '70's. He was great. I still have a copy of his "Whole Light Catalog".
Mike M.

Mike
10-03-2006, 07:01 PM
You can improve even the stock sealed beams by installing a relay, rather than running the headlights through the overhead switch; and running larger wires. The stock headlamp wiring is indeed 18#. I think it's one 18# wire to a "T" splice to feed the two headlights. It also goes through unnecessary connector plugs, that I'll be eliminating. I wouldn't go any smaller than 14# wire for a 10 amp circuit 15' long. It's not a matter of smoke, just voltage drop.
It's not hard to learn to solder. Any oil, even skin oil from handling parts and bare wire, will make it hard to get the solder to flow. There must be a tutorial on the net, somewhere.
Mike M.

N8N
10-03-2006, 07:16 PM
Mike,

if you DO keep the dimmer switch, I'd buy a new one at least. They're cheap and available and then you'd have nice new, bright contacts.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
10-03-2006, 07:19 PM
So then, if even slightly so, the APC harness would be an improvement
over stock, and allow me to get considerably brighter headlights from
the headlights I mentioned above - without worry of smoking my stock
wiring harness? Thats really what I am after, the Olds forum guys
seem to have success with them. No one has bought lights from the guy
I listed above? Not even his basic euro lights?[V]

I have been coached by a "Pro" at my work on soldering, and the result
has been a VERY slight improvement. Not good enough that I would want
to attack my own harness. I am at the simple repair state.;)

Tom

Mike
10-03-2006, 07:41 PM
Tom,
How about making your own harness with crimp terminals, and having your friend solder them.
A new dimmer switch is probably a good idea for me, Nate.
If you want to use 10 or 12# wire, here's a place that sells flexible, high temp wire: http://www.robotmarketplace.com/marketplace_wire.html . Technically, the key to high temp rating is tinned wire. Corrosion, maybe even just tarnish, degrades the silicone insulation. I'm using their tinned 14# to rewire a pair of Avanti II aux lamps, (Cibie 35's). There's no air circulation in there, and the bulb socket gets hot!
Mike M.

sbca96
10-03-2006, 08:16 PM
The "Pro" is a coworker, wouldnt feel right to ask him to solder up a
whole harness. I need to browse the APC website and find out what the
gauge of their harness is. I would doubt that someone would go to the
trouble of making an aftermarket part, only to skimp, cause a failure
and ruin a reputation. I havent read anything bad about APC, other
then what Nate typed. Maybe with some more research, those concerns
will be proven. Painless is the standard in quality aftermarket, I
should also check theirs to see what gauge is used. Regardless it is
an improvement over stock to switch to relays, both APC and Painless
harnesses incorporate them. An H4 is a good bulb right?

The way I see it, the halos/city lights are an added bonus option that
is easy enough to disconnect later if they dont work the way I intend.
The "look" I am hoping for is the clear reflective look, and get away
from the frosted haze look of the standard sealed beam lights.

Here is a 69 Camaro with "city lights" :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Ryon_Park_2006/Ryon_Park_2006_016a.jpg

Here is a 57 Chevy with plain Euro 'tri bar' lights :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_JRs_9-06/Avanti_JRs011a.jpg

Tom

N8N
10-03-2006, 10:23 PM
An H4 is just a bulb format; some are higher quality than others, which is also true of the reflectors. But overall they are a good design that has been around for decades and is still used because it works well. I'd stick with a good brand like Osram/Sylvania, Narva, etc. and avoid the blue-tinted bulbs, just get a good clear glass bulb and enjoy.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
10-04-2006, 12:05 PM
Yah, I dont want the blue tint really, the 57 Chevy looks like it has
the blue tint bulbs, if you look closely. I think I will update my
PayPal account, and order those halo headlights. I figure for $40 it
is worth a try. They are glass even, I have noticed most are plastic.

I will update this thread when I get them. I think I will also order
the APC harness from Summit. A little more research to decide.

OH .. I should mention, this will be my FIRST Ebay purchase! Though I
was really tempted by the 'Jesus Toast' a while back, I held back!;)

Tom

kurtruk
10-06-2006, 01:21 AM
It seems to me TRUE projector lights should cost a lot more than $40. That's why the factory ones get stolen right off the Nissans these days...
'Course, if you just want the look and don't care that much about the actual benefits of real projector lamps, go for it.
However...I hope these are truly street legal. DOT approved!!! Many unscrupulous sellers and manufacturers will says things just to move their product, knowing many end users really don't care about the legality of the item. Reading BMW's Roundel magazine, there are factory "Angel eyes" lights for BMWs sold in Europe, but they are not legal here. But their magazine contains many, many ads for them for sale in the US.

KURTRUK
(read it backwards;))

P.S. Be careful about "updating" your PayPal account. I get (SCAM) notices to do this weekly!:(:( I know, I know, they look real...

sbca96
10-06-2006, 01:59 AM
I am expecting them to work better then halogens, but not close to a
factory projector headlight. I get those scams all the time also, the
way that you can tell the difference, is that the REAL Paypal notice
will have the last 4 digits of your credit card, but NO LINKS! They
want you to go to THEIR website on your own. Scam emails will ALWAYS
have a link or two, and if you put your cursor over the link, but do
not click it, you will see the ACTUAL destination of the link. Trust
me, it will never match the typed text in the email.[xx(]

As for the legal side, they might not be DOT even though they say they
are. I figure as long as I stay away from the blue tint bulbs, the
cops will say away from me. Any blue or red on the front of your car
and you are basically ASKING to be pulled over.;)

I want to order them this weekend, and the harness. I will report back
on what I find out. I have another show coming up in town Oct 21st. I
would like to have them installed by then.

Tom

CHAMP
10-06-2006, 09:52 AM
Tom, I have really enjoyed all of your posts on your Avanti. The upgrades you have done on it are the type of things I would do to an Avanti if I had one! Your posts are not only informative but also very enjoyable! Keep posting and I will keep watching! Maybe my next Studebaker will be an Avanti!:D

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

sbca96
10-06-2006, 03:33 PM
Thanks Champ![:I]

Tom

poppopstude
11-18-2006, 02:04 AM
dont know about the halo. but i have the same light with the small 194 bulb hooked p/l & the h-4 halogen bulbs in my hawk would not go back to sealed beams for any reason.

hank63
11-18-2006, 03:34 AM
"Brighter" lights usually means more watts. Don't forget to check your generating capacity is up to the higher power consumption.
/H

gordr
11-18-2006, 01:53 PM
Tom, allow me to parse the eBumf :D

7" Round Halo Rim Projector Headlights w/Super White H4
Manufactured by ISO Certified Auto Light Manufacturer (which one? are they so ashamed of their product that they keep the manufacturer's name a secret?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*Price is for One Brand New Set of 2 Pieces, Left & Right (well, duh!)
*Diamond-cut Chrome Housing, Halo, Clear Projector & Euro Clear Lens
Cover (meaningless puffery)
*Bulb-replaceable Design, no more Light Housing Changing, just Replace Bulbs (standard with all E-code headlights, and most late-model domestic headlights)
*Comes with all new bulbs, H4 60/55W P43T Type White Light ones (blue lens) (H4 bulbs sound like E-code lamps. They've been around for donkey's years. The blue lens doesn't make the light brighter; it makes it dimmer, because some of the yellow is trapped inside the bulb, making it run hotter. Blue-lens halogens are for monkeys who want their car to kinda-sorta look like they've got those expensive HID lamps.)
*100% Glass Lenses ( and my cat has a 100% fur coat )
*Rare with unique look-comes with a built-in parking light. You can connect it to your existing parking lights or leave it disconnected
(in order to accomodate the halo, the reflector for the main bulb has to be smaller. Means less light down the road, and probably a poorer pattern)
*Same as shown in Pictures (so?)
*Durable with highest quality (sounds like Chinese English here)
*Street Legal (in what jurisdiction?)

Tom, in all honesty, these sound like cheap junk aimed at the riceboy crowd (defined as wannabes who tart their cars up to look like tuner cars).

Better headlight are a worthy investment, but please shop for lamps made by a reputable manufacturer, like Cibie, or Hella, or Bosch. They make European-style lamps with a sharp cutoff on the upper part of the low beam pattern, vastly superior to the old sealed beams. They've been available here in Canada for at least 30 years. They were illegal in the USA for a long time, but it's something you would rarely get ticketed for, as the design is intended to prevent irritating other drivers.

And you should get bulbs with the high beam in the 80-100 watt range, IMHO, and use a pair of headlamp relays, and new harnesses to the lamps.

Take the time to visit the Daniel Stern lighting site. Lots of good information there.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

N8N
11-18-2006, 03:09 PM
quote:They (E-code headlights) were illegal in the USA for a long time, but it's something you would rarely get ticketed for, as the design is intended to prevent irritating other drivers.

They still aren't DOT approved for anything but motorcycle use, but that doesn't keep me from using them, because they are as you say superior to anything else I've tried.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Mike
11-19-2006, 02:54 AM
Re what "gordr" said:
"AMEN"!
Mike M.

sbca96
11-20-2006, 02:06 AM
There is a person on Racing Studebakers that bought these for his
Stude truck and has very good things to say about them. He wired the
halo as a turn signal. I know of a person who has the non-halo one
on his truck and loves the extra light. I understand the hesitation,
but these sound like they are pretty good. I still plan to give them
a try once I get back to working on the Avanti. It hasnt moved since
the power steering blew up. I have all the hoses, but the Camaro is
more important, so the damage to it needed to get fixed first. I had
the stomach flu last week, so not much got done. I did, however get
a new CAT back exhaust from Edelbrock (10 years old they honored the
warrenty), and installed it Thursday night, so now the rattle is gone.

Oh, and yes, I was going to get the aux harness for the lights, I have
read that THIS alone will make a huge difference in light output.

As far as your comments toward the Ebay post, they are funny. Though
I have found that its not embarrassment, but legal issues that is why
they dont list a manufacturer. This isnt the first time I have seen
this type of wording. Maybe you are right, but the people I talked
to at the car show also bought off Ebay and where happy with them.

Tom

bams50
11-20-2006, 04:53 PM
FWIW, I bought some similar ones for my 65 Lincoln- and was very disappointed with them [V] Very poor quality, and less light than stock ones!! Also, they both inexplicably cracked after a couple months, and one quit working... I let them go with the car...

The ones I had were from Symmic- and were around $49... not sure if these are the same brand, but that's my experience...

Good luck, Tom, and proceed with caution....;)

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1